News The Hawthorn Allegations

[Timmy from Thomastown]

This is why the investigation is destined to fail. Western ideals will be the lens through which the allegations are viewed.

You mean the law?

 

[jmac70]

You mean the law?

Yep.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Yep.

The right to innocence until proven guilty is not a racist right.

 

[jathanas]

Then you need to read my comments again. I have stated if true the men accused should never work in football again. I'm not focused on that aspect of the allegations because that is not the point of contention. One side has had their allegations presented in bold headlines and with breathless excitement in the media while the other was never given an opportunity to respond to the allegations before they were presented on every media platform in a manner which suggested the allegations were true.

Yes, they slipped in the (if true) line to cover their arses before going on their emotional head shaking rants. Caroline Wilson has already declared Fagan and Clarkson will not coach next year.

I don't give a flying * what you and all of your finger pointing mates think I am. It's utterly juvenile. I have never written a word on any thread which could lead anyone other than a mindless ideologue to believe I am a bigot or have any problem with indigenous people. It is truly mind-blowing. Please provide me with a line or two I have written which supports your assertion I am a bigot when all I have said is it is unjust to have anonymous allegations made against people published and discussed at length before the people accused can respond. What the hell does that opinion have to do with skin colour? It is about a process. If the accusers were white and the accused black I would be arguing just as passionately that the accused have been unjustly treated.

And why should I join the conga line of posters expressing the things you suggest when almost all of the posters on this thread have done so already and I had already said if true they should never be involved in footy again? Do I need to get your nod of approval to be deemed worthy of having an opinion?

My comments here are as a poster (it should go without saying).

You supply walls of text arguing the need for due process. Nobody denies that. It's fair.

You have made a statement along the lines of "if guilty there is no place for them (Clarkson , Fagan, et al) in the AFL". This is also fair and reasonable.

In all your posts in this thread I haven't found many words expressing genuine concern for the people who have allegedly been hurt. You mention that others have already done this so it's not needed from you. I'm uncertain that's the case.

Asking people to prove you're a bigot is sealioning.

This thread is not an appropriate platform for you to push the topic you're very passionate about i.e. men who have have had their lives destroyed through unfair accusations. You've had a fair opportunity to make your point but it shouldn't dominate the thread.

Peace. J

 

[gouki88]

How is his wife’s skin colour relevant?

It’s incredibly relevant. If senior figures are coercing separation between Indigenous families, but not when it’s an Indigenous man and a white woman, what does that say?

 

[jmac70]

The right to innocence until proven guilty is not a racist right.

Yes, that’s correct. The problem here is that once the AFL lawyers get involved the truth will be distorted.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Yes, that’s correct. The problem here is that once the AFL lawyers get involved the truth will be distorted.

They can either prove it happened or they can’t. And if it happened, full context needs to be considered. Thats just the way the “western” law works. Are you suggesting a different law? Eastern ? shariah perhaps?

We don’t even know if these players want to advance this claim.

 

[jmac70]

They can either prove it happened or they can’t. And if it happened, full context needs to be considered. Thats just the way the “western” law works. Are you suggesting a different law? Eastern ? shariah perhaps?

We don’t even know if these players want to advance this claim.

We know, through media reports, that they want an independent investigation, free from AFL ‘influence.’

Do you reckon that will happen?

 

[gouki88]

They can either prove it happened or they can’t. And if it happened, full context needs to be considered. Thats just the way the “western” law works. Are you suggesting a different law? Eastern ? shariah perhaps?

We don’t even know if these players want to advance this claim.

Such as?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Such as?

I’m not going to guess, I wasn’t there.

 

[Cyclops]

They can either prove it happened or they can’t. And if it happened, full context needs to be considered. Thats just the way the “western” law works. Are you suggesting a different law? Eastern ? shariah perhaps?

We don’t even know if these players want to advance this claim.

The presumption of innocence is a tenet of many legal systems. I don't know of any where its universally applied: for example in our system the onus of proof is reversed in some regulated areas (eg some worksafe matters-relevant here, some professional licencing requirements).

One way "western law" or the Common Law as its known in this country is that a jury finds a Cardinal guilty of raping two boys and then, after very careful consideration, three judges find that the trial judge didn't encourage the jury to find him not guilty enough so he's not guilty.

Another example might be Normie Gallagher who took bribes from the Master builders back in the 1970s. Thee are two parties to a bribe, but the Master Builders faced the County court (flanked by an army of QCs) and took their slaps on the wrist involving 0 days gaol time, and Normie went to the Supreme Court and was gaoled.

Another example is John Elliot who among a host of horrendous business deals (eg sending 50 million bucks on a mystery tour of Belgium, Liberia and Singapore, all without the knowledge of his board, and where did it end up? Wanna guess?) did a deal with NZ that several blokes at that end went to gaol for, but not him...wonder how that went? I won't even repeat the story he allegedly offered a offered a Fed a bribe on tape, but the NCA lawyer mysteriously fumbled the slam dunk....

Another example might be Max Stuart who was fitted up for raping and killing a little girl in Ceduna in the 1950's. His alibi was ignored (he was at a brothel) and the cops bashed him and wrote a lovely confession the man (who spoke only pigdin) could not have made, and got him to "sign" it (he was illiterate). He was an Arrente man. (Incidentally his lawyer was a friend of my parents, bloke called O'Sullivan, he had to leave SA after defending Stuart because of frothing defenders of the law denying it was racist, and died in a car accident in Melbourne).

You can say "oh yes, ancient history" but his conviction stands. Can you imagine why an indigenous person might have doubts about the legal system?

Please don't imagine there is something sacred or special about our legal system or that there is some inalienable right to presumption of innocence. Kennett is a known racist and bully. Clarckson is a known bully. The law works a lot better for you if you are rich and if you are white.

 

[sideswipe]

The presumption of innocence is a tenet of many legal systems. I don't know of any where its universally applied: for example in our system the onus of proof is reversed in some regulated areas (eg some worksafe matters-relevant here, some professional licencing requirements).

One way "western law" or the Common Law as its known in this country is that a jury finds a Cardinal guilty of raping two boys and then, after very careful consideration, three judges find that the trial judge didn't encourage the jury to find him not guilty enough so he's not guilty.

Another example might be Normie Gallagher who took bribes from the Master builders back in the 1970s. Thee are two parties to a bribe, but the Master Builders faced the County court (flanked by an army of QCs) and took their slaps on the wrist involving 0 days gaol time, and Normie went to the Supreme Court and was gaoled.

Another example is John Elliot who among a host of horrendous business deals (eg sending 50 million bucks on a mystery tour of Belgium, Liberia and Singapore, all without the knowledge of his board, and where did it end up? Wanna guess?) did a deal with NZ that several blokes at that end went to gaol for, but not him...wonder how that went? I won't even repeat the story he allegedly offered a offered a Fed a bribe on tape, but the NCA lawyer mysteriously fumbled the slam dunk....

Another example might be Max Stuart who was fitted up for raping and killing a little girl in Ceduna in the 1950's. His alibi was ignored (he was at a brothel) and the cops bashed him and wrote a lovely confession the man (who spoke only pigdin) could not have made, and got him to "sign" it (he was illiterate). He was an Arrente man. (Incidentally his lawyer was a friend of my parents, bloke called O'Sullivan, he had to leave SA after defending Stuart because of frothing defenders of the law denying it was racist, and died in a car accident in Melbourne).

You can say "oh yes, ancient history" but his conviction stands. Can you imagine why an indigenous person might have doubts about the legal system?

Please don't imagine there is something sacred or special about our legal system or that there is some inalienable right to presumption of innocence. Kennett is a known racist and bully. Clarckson is a known bully. The law works a lot better for you if you are rich and if you are white.

Norm Gallagher?! What a victim. A true people’s champ. Not the first person who springs to mind when looking for examples of injustice. Good at bilking union members though.

 

[Cyclops]

Norm Gallagher?! What a victim. A true people’s champ. Not the first person who springs to mind when looking for examples of injustice. Good at bilking union members though.

He was a criminal. He accepted secret commissions. He got his fair whack. The other parties to the crime? Not so much.

 

[Dynamics]

I've tended to stay away from this thread, so my apologies if this has already been covered, but it's worth noting that there are different standards of proof dependent on the court or body presiding over a case.

It's worth keeping in mind as it has a huge bearing on discussions like "innocent until proven guilty" - I think that a lot of people assume that this goes hand in hand with the standard of "beyond reasonable doubt" which is not always the case.

In civil and administrative cases the standard of proof is generally the "balance of probabilities".

That can have a massive bearing on how decisions are reached.

 

[sideswipe]

He was a criminal. He accepted secret commissions. He got his fair whack. The other parties to the crime? Not so much.

He was locked up for obtaining free building materials for his beach house. Who else would you want held responsible for that?


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[Cyclops]

He was locked up for obtaining free building materials for his beach house. Who else would you want held responsible for that?


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"Obtaining" you make it sound like he stole them. The word you're looking for is "accepted".

A gang of Master Builders gave a union boss secret commissions. There are two parties to this crime, the giver and the taker. Like when there's a drug deal, the dealer and the buyer are both breaking the law.

Its like when when prostitution was illegal, and the politicians in the hot tubs were never arrested during police raids, but all the prostitutes were. Both were parties to an offence, but only one group got charged.

 

[sideswipe]

"Obtaining" you make it sound like he stole them. The word you're looking for is "accepted".

A gang of Master Builders gave a union boss secret commissions. There are two parties to this crime, the giver and the taker. Like when there's a drug deal, the dealer and the buyer are both breaking the law.

Its like when when prostitution was illegal, and the politicians in the hot tubs were never arrested during police raids, but all the prostitutes were. Both were parties to an offence, but only one group got charged.

Ok bud, we’ll call him poor Normie from now on. A real victim. Please tell me you aren’t one of his former union members who “stayed staunch”?


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[Cyclops]

Ok bud, we’ll call him poor Normie from now on. A real victim. Please tell me you aren’t one of his former union members who “stayed staunch”?


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Rinse the sand out of whatever you've got going on down there, and re-read the post.

 

[sideswipe]

Rinse the sand out of whatever you've got going on down there, and re-read the post.

Sounds like you were? Good one.

 

[Gone Critical]

My view after reading this

So much posturing, especially from those with strong views on either side. So lttle discussion. So much point scoring.

Hope the 3 player are managing okay. Whatever has happened it seems being at the Hawks has had many negatives for them. Its hard to see a fair hearing here for any party with so many opinions formed without full knowledge. Hoping for a just outcome

 

[JB1975]

My view after reading this

So much posturing, especially from those with strong views on either side. So lttle discussion. So much point scoring.

Hope the 3 player are managing okay. Whatever has happened it seems being at the Hawks has had many negatives for them. Its hard to see a fair hearing here for any party with so many opinions formed without full knowledge. Hoping for a just outcome

I know what you mean about the posturing and point-scoring. Domus just doesn't know when to stop.

More seriously, I think that elements of this thread have touched on meaningful discussion (e.g. culture, family & community), but the conversation is bound to drag given that the investigation hasn't started and no one knows what it will look like.

 

[South of the Yarra]

What about people who were at the club during the time that the racist behaviour was alleged to have occurred? Don't you think it likely that the players would have spoken to other members of the playing group about the outrageous demands being made of them by Clarkson? I'd have thought that there would have been people at the club who could corroborate the accounts of the three players.

If I was one of the three indigenous players who had been asked to break up a relationship, terminate a pregnancy, had a partner who miscarried due to the stress under which she had been placed or had my sim card destroyed, I would be complaining to anyone in my vicinity who would listen. At some stage, surely other players are going to lend direct support to the claims of the accusers? Surely the experience of those players is important to any ongoing investigation?

I think it is highly unlikely young Aboriginal boys would have spoken to other members of the playing group about what was taking place. I think they would have kept it quiet and said very little.

 

[Wearmouth]

Burgoyne, the established veteran with a white partner, is not comparable to the alleged insistence on the separation of Indigenous families.

So let me get this straight. He would only get credibility of his partner was Indigenous…..How could Burgoyne have any relevant opinions on the matter any longer. As in your eyes he has forgone that once he started to reside with a white women……Hooly Dooly…..


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[TheGreatGrundy]

I think it is highly unlikely young Aboriginal boys would have spoken to other members of the playing group about what was taking place. I think they would have kept it quiet and said very little.

Do we in fact know that they were young boys? The accounts were anonymous so could have been from any indigenous player at the club during the period in question, including experienced players. I don't have a deep knowledge of Hawthorn's playing list.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Do we in fact know that they were young boys? The accounts were anonymous so could have been from any indigenous player at the club during the period in question, including experienced players. I don't have a deep knowledge of Hawthorn's playing list.

I should preface by saying that anyone on a playing list of an AFL club is young to me.