Preview The Home Ground Factor in Finals is hugely overrated

[dean33]

Why would you complain? In this scenario, you don't have to travel and in the end will get them at you home ground, so they have to travel.

In this scenario we didn’t get them in the grand final, we got 2 finals both at neutral venues with nil home ground advantage and lost the prelim. The eagles got 2 finals with a considerable home ground advantage and made the grand final eventually winning the flag. Do I complain that we got no home ground advantage in any of our finals after finishing 2 games clear on top? Like I said previously, it’s swings and roundabouts, sometimes the system works in your favour, sometimes it doesn’t.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

In this scenario we didn’t get them in the grand final, we got 2 finals both at neutral venues with nil home ground advantage and lost the prelim. The eagles got 2 finals with a considerable home ground advantage and made the grand final eventually winning the flag. Do I complain that we got no home ground advantage in any of our finals after finishing 2 games clear on top? Like I said previously, it’s swings and roundabouts, sometimes the system works in your favour, sometimes it doesn’t.

I dont agree they got home ground advantage in finals this year. They beat the Pies at Optus and the MCG. I respect what the Demons are building, but I cant conclude anything other than WC would have won that game comfortably absolutely anywhere.

Even In 2015 the reversal between the QF and the GF was about the fact the QF isn't a sudden death game in my view.

 

[Smithdogmaddog]

The hardest parts of winning a grand final is the following in ascending order.

Making the finals
Making the top 4
(having 11 genuine home games is a massive advantage)
Winning Finals
Winning a Prelim
(Home ground advantage massive and being a non-vic team the odds of this are extremely high)
Winning a grand final (disadvantage against a Victorian team especially MCG tennant).

The grand final is only one game so while the disadvantage is there there is a lot of other advantages during the season and finals that balance out that disadvantage. The travel factor especially for WA teams probably puts it overall at a net disadvantage but only slightly.

I think if you look at it in a balanced way yes there is a disadvantage but it's only slight and it balances out overall pretty evenly.

 

[bh90210fan]

How would the Eagles feel about only playing 3 games with an actual Home Ground Advantage!?

It is easier to have 10 games with a full blown advantage, and then thanks to ground rationalisation in Melbourne, they don’t get 10 proper away games...instead getting random venues like Darwin, Tassie which aren’t their opponents actual home ground.

No surprise that since 2000, when Etihad stadium came in, that non-Melbourne teams now dominate the top 2 H&A ladder positions and thus home finals.

You know that ground rationalisation has made it easier for Melbourne clubs to win their away games too right? You get 17 games without a disadvantage.

Vic clubs have finished top 2 more times than non vic clubs since ground rationalisation has come in. Your argument falls to bits depending on which side of the fence you place Geelong on.

 

[bh90210fan]

The hardest parts of winning a grand final is the following in ascending order.

Making the finals
Making the top 4
(having 11 genuine home games is a massive advantage)
Winning Finals
Winning a Prelim
(Home ground advantage massive and being a non-vic team the odds of this are extremely high)
Winning a grand final (disadvantage against a Victorian team especially MCG tennant).

The grand final is only one game so while the disadvantage is there there is a lot of other advantages during the season and finals that balance out that disadvantage. The travel factor especially for WA teams probably puts it overall at a net disadvantage but only slightly.

I think if you look at it in a balanced way yes there is a disadvantage but it's only slight and it balances out overall pretty evenly.

The only way of guaranteeing home finals for a non vic club is by finishing top 2. It’s a lot harder to win 17 games to make top 2 if you have to win a majority of your away games interstate in order to get there.

If we finish 3rd we’re traveling, look how hard richmond had it last year from 3rd

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

The only way of guaranteeing home finals for a non vic club is by finishing top 2. It’s a lot harder to win 17 games to make top 2 if you have to win a majority of your away games interstate in order to get there.

If we finish 3rd we’re traveling, look how hard richmond had it last year from 3rd

It's because they beat the Cats though, the Cats are a whole different shitfight fir anither thread. Given the way the finals results panned out our PF was rightfully at the G. The GF will be anyway.

If you believe location matters than us finishing 4th and not leaving NSW in 2016 was much luckier.

 

[bh90210fan]

It's because they beat the Cats though, the Cats are a whole different shitfight fir anither thread. Given the way the finals results panned out our PF was rightfully at the G. The GF will be anyway.

If you believe location matters than us finishing 4th and not leaving NSW in 2016 was much luckier.

Yeah I said guaranteed home finals. You have to finish top 2 for that.

 

[doppleganger]

You know that ground rationalisation has made it easier for Melbourne clubs to win their away games too right? You get 17 games without a disadvantage.

Vic clubs have finished top 2 more times than non vic clubs since ground rationalisation has come in. Your argument falls to bits depending on which side of the fence you place Geelong on.

LoL you are back.

Melbourne ground rationalsiation resulted in Melbourne teams losing their home ground advantage and conversely also seeing their away disadvantage decrease.

Non-Melbourne teams have retained the home ground advantage, but have seen their away disadvantage decrease.

How you can’t follow this simple logic is baffling.

Geelong still play 9 games at CatPark, just like they did in the 1950s, and the 1980s...they have retained their home ground advantage.

But instead of playing away games at Moorabbin, Whitten Oval, Vic Park, Windy Hill, Princes Park, Glenferrie they now just play at two generic venues.

Although...unlike non-vic teams, if Geelong finish top2 they aren’t guaranteed two finals on their home deck...so despite having an easier path to top2, their reward isn’t the same as Adelaide or WC.

So yes Geelong should ark up and they should get home finals at CatPark just like the Eagles get to.

 

[bh90210fan]

LoL you are back.

Melbourne ground rationalsiation resulted in Melbourne teams losing their home ground advantage and conversely also seeing their away disadvantage decrease.

Non-Melbourne teams have retained the home ground advantage, but have seen their away disadvantage decrease.

Melbourne clubs didn’t see their away disadvantage decrease in Melbourne, they lost it completely. Big difference.

Non vics still face the same challenges playing in Melbourne that Melbourne clubs face over here.

Now you play 17 games without a disadvantage, giving a strong vic club a better chance of finishing top 2. Vic clubs are achieving record breaking seasons with more regularity since ground rationalisation.

 

[doppleganger]

Melbourne clubs didn’t see their away disadvantage decrease in Melbourne, they lost it completely. Big difference.

Yes instead of Collingwood having 9 games at VicPark with an actual home ground advantage, we get none.

The Melbourne teams lost any home ground advantage they had against the other Melbourne teams.

Obviously the trade off is that the away games they used to play at Arden St, Windy Hill, Princes Park we’re also removed.

MelbourneNon vics still face the same challenges playing in Melbourne that Melbourne clubs face over here.

No they don’t.

Instead of travelling to seven or eight different unique grounds in Melbourne like the non-Melbourne teams did in the 90s, they now often play ‘away’ games in places that aren’t even the oppositions actual home ground ie Melbourne in Darwin, North in Tasmania, Footscray in Ballarat, Richmond were playing ‘home’ games in QLD against the Suns for a while too.

Non-Melbourne teams don’t have the same away disadvantage they faced in the early 90s, but they enjoy the same home benefit.

You really are a battler if you can’t follow that logic.

The numbers follow that, as since 2000 non-Melbourne teams are massively over represented in top2 finishes...which isn’t unsurprising when you actually understand that as a result of Melbourne ground rationalisation that they now enjoy easier H&A fixtures.

But yeah, Melbourne teams get to sleep in their own bedroom more!

 

[telsor]

Yes instead of Collingwood having 9 games at VicPark with an actual home ground advantage, we get none.

The Melbourne teams lost any home ground advantage they had against the other Melbourne teams.

Obviously the trade off is that the away games they used to play at Arden St, Windy Hill, Princes Park we’re also removed.


No they don’t.

Instead of travelling to seven or eight different unique grounds in Melbourne like the non-Melbourne teams did in the 90s, they now often play ‘away’ games in places that aren’t even the oppositions actual home ground ie Melbourne in Darwin, North in Tasmania, Footscray in Ballarat, Richmond were playing ‘home’ games in QLD against the Suns for a while too.

Non-Melbourne teams don’t have the same away disadvantage they faced in the early 90s, but they enjoy the same home benefit.

You really are a battler if you can’t follow that logic.

The numbers follow that, as since 2000 non-Melbourne teams are massively over represented in top2 finishes...which isn’t unsurprising when you actually understand that as a result of Melbourne ground rationalisation that they now enjoy easier H&A fixtures.

But yeah, Melbourne teams get to sleep in their own bedroom more!

If Richmond only goes to Perth once a year, it's a new/different thing for them.
When WCE plays in Melbourne, they'll have been there ~5 times a year, probably 2 or 3 times at each ground, so they'll be a lot more familiar with it all (from the airport through to the dressing rooms, facilities and ground surface).

It's not surprising that they have less of an away disadvantage.

As an example...Richmond plays a 'home' game against Sydney this coming year at Docklands...It'll be Sydney's 3rd game there for the season and Richmond's first. Who has the 'home' advantage again?

By extension, as non Vic teams had an easier run getting to the GF in the first place (as they finish H&A higher, thus more likely to get home finals), they're often not the 'best' team....If played at a more neutral venue, they'd probably lose there too.

 

[doppleganger]

If Richmond only goes to Perth once a year, it's a new/different thing for them.
When WCE plays in Melbourne, they'll have been there ~5 times a year, probably 2 or 3 times at each ground, so they'll be a lot more familiar with it all (from the airport through to the dressing rooms, facilities and ground surface).

It's not surprising that they have less of an away disadvantage.

As an example...Richmond plays a 'home' game against Sydney this coming year at Docklands...It'll be Sydney's 3rd game there for the season and Richmond's first. Who has the 'home' advantage again?

By extension, as non Vic teams had an easier run getting to the GF in the first place (as they finish H&A higher, thus more likely to get home finals), they're often not the 'best' team....If played at a more neutral venue, they'd probably lose there too.

Yep.

And ground rationalisation has also seen more teams sell home games.

According to the WA fan, a Melbourne team flying and playing a ‘home’ game in another state still is a full ‘home’ advantage and also a full ‘away’ disadvantage....it is laughable when they try and actually argue this!!

And yes, for Melbourne teams the stadium also isn’t important according to WA fans, Richmond at Etihad is the same as Richmond at the G...both are full ‘away’ games according to them.

Ground rationalisation in Melbourne has made it easier for non-Melbourne teams to finish higher on the H&A ladder. The logic is obvious, and the numbers back it up.

But WA players don’t sleep in their own bed as much.

 

[telsor]

And yes, for Melbourne teams the stadium also isn’t important according to WA fans, Richmond at Etihad is the same as Richmond at the G...both are full ‘away’ games according to them.

And yet, it's a huge deal to non-vic fans how often they play at the MCG, with Docklands being totally different.....

But WA players don’t sleep in their own bed as much.

Actually they generally do...Part of the WA teams plans for dealing with travel (and demands on the AFL) is that they fly home that night so they can sleep at home. It's a major reason why they don't get as many night games (although of course their fans blame it on Victorians...)

 

[telsor]

Vic clubs have finished top 2 more times than non vic clubs since ground rationalisation has come in. Your argument falls to bits depending on which side of the fence you place Geelong on.

Is that true when you factor in the number of clubs?

So when it was 11 Vic clubs, plus Sydney, WCE & Bris...by 'more times' do you mean more than 11/14 times,or just more than 50/50?

and last I checked, Geelong is indeed in Victoria....just down the road a bit in fact.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

And yet, it's a huge deal to non-vic fans how often they play at the MCG, with Docklands being totally different.....



Actually they generally do...Part of the WA teams plans for dealing with travel (and demands on the AFL) is that they fly home that night so they can sleep at home. It's a major reason why they don't get as many night games (although of course their fans blame it on Victorians...)

Interesting to see the stats on flying home same day. I know we travelled back from Perth on the Monday last year. The night before the game would be in a Hotel anyway.

WC and Freo face 4 hour flights, so I thought they'd be less likely. Maybe as part of the season schedule overall they've made the call to do it that way.

We probably could do day trips to Canberra logistically but we dont.

 

[telsor]

Interesting to see the stats on flying home same day. I know we travelled back from Perth on the Monday last year. The night before the game would be in a Hotel anyway.

WC and Freo face 4 hour flights, so I thought they'd be less likely. Maybe as part of the season schedule overall they've made the call to do it that way.

We probably could do day trips to Canberra logistically but we dont.

No idea, but they seem to think it works for them, and I imagine they've looked into it pretty thoroughly.

Bit harder to travel back from Perth due to the time zones...3hr flight (not 4) plus 2/3 hrs for time zones, etc. means you're likely to be very late getting back.

I dare say it's as much, if not more, about sleeping in your own timezone (bodyclock adjusting to sunrise/set, etc) than 'own bed', so it mightn't be as big a factor with trips that don't involve WA.

 

[telsor]

Interesting to see the stats on flying home same day. I know we travelled back from Perth on the Monday last year. The night before the game would be in a Hotel anyway.

WC and Freo face 4 hour flights, so I thought they'd be less likely. Maybe as part of the season schedule overall they've made the call to do it that way.

We probably could do day trips to Canberra logistically but we dont.

No idea, but they seem to think it works for them, and I imagine they've looked into it pretty thoroughly.

Bit harder to travel back from Perth due to the time zones...3hr flight (not 4) plus 2/3 hrs for time zones, etc. means you're likely to be very late getting back.

I dare say it's as much, if not more, about sleeping in your own timezone (bodyclock adjusting to sunrise/set, etc) than 'own bed', so it mightn't be as big a factor with trips that don't involve WA.

 

[doppleganger]

I dare say it's as much, if not more, about sleeping in your own timezone (bodyclock adjusting to sunrise/set, etc) than 'own bed', so it mightn't be as big a factor with trips that don't involve WA.

Yep the international research is all about circadian rhythm and that being a negative impact.

A one hour flight with barely negligible change in Timezone, ie NSW to VIC or SA, is not a significant influence.

WA teams are at a big disadvantage compared to SA and NSW based teams...but they don’t complain about that.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

No idea, but they seem to think it works for them, and I imagine they've looked into it pretty thoroughly.

Bit harder to travel back from Perth due to the time zones...3hr flight (not 4) plus 2/3 hrs for time zones, etc. means you're likely to be very late getting back.

I dare say it's as much, if not more, about sleeping in your own timezone (bodyclock adjusting to sunrise/set, etc) than 'own bed', so it mightn't be as big a factor with trips that don't involve WA.

Yeah I expect the time zone thing is a factor, generally 2 hours in season but still.

I hadn't considered it and the Sydney curfew probably makes it impossible from later games from Perth.

 

[bh90210fan]

No they don’t.

Instead of travelling to seven or eight different unique grounds in Melbourne like the non-Melbourne teams did in the 90s, they now often play ‘away’ games in places that aren’t even the oppositions actual home ground ie Melbourne in Darwin, North in Tasmania, Footscray in Ballarat, Richmond were playing ‘home’ games in QLD against the Suns for a while too.

Hawthorn and north Melbourne have fantastic records in Tasmania. They have a decent fan base and play against teams which might play there once every two or three years. While some teams have to play Melbourne tenants all over Australia, teams like Collingwood only have to win against them on familiar Melbourne grounds.

Non-Melbourne teams don’t have the same away disadvantage they faced in the early 90s, but they enjoy the same home benefit.

Non vic clubs face twice the disadvantage of most Melbourne clubs. Ground rationalisation has meant non vic clubs are forced to play Melbourne teams on unfamiliar grounds all over the country - as well as playing Geelong in Geelong - while teams like Collingwood get to play all of their games against Victorian opponents on just 2 familiar venues.

That’s a massive advantage afforded to only a privileged few.

West coast averages the same number of games on the mcg as they did in the 90’s. Ground rationalisation hasn’t made the mcg any more familiar for non vic clubs, but for most Victorian clubs the ‘home of football’ has suddenly become a stronghold for 7 of 10 vic clubs.

 

[telsor]

Interesting to see the stats on flying home same day. I know we travelled back from Perth on the Monday last year. The night before the game would be in a Hotel anyway.

WC and Freo face 4 hour flights, so I thought they'd be less likely. Maybe as part of the season schedule overall they've made the call to do it that way.

We probably could do day trips to Canberra logistically but we dont.

No idea, but they seem to think it works for them, and I imagine they've looked into it pretty thoroughly.

Bit harder to travel back from Perth due to the time zones...3hr flight (not 4) plus 2/3 hrs for time zones, etc. means you're likely to be very late getting back.

I dare say it's as much, if not more, about sleeping in your own timezone (bodyclock adjusting to sunrise/set, etc) than 'own bed', so it mightn't be as big a factor with trips that don't involve WA.

 

[kirky]

At the end of the day, there are too many Victorian sides. Need to deal with that issue first.

 

[blue harvest]

In the last 16 GF's there was only Vic and Non Vic Teams met 9 times to give a 6-3 result in the last 17 years thy have met 10 times to give a 6-4 result

Why are you only counting the last 16 or 17 years? I'm counting all Vic vs Non Vic GFs, there have been 17 and it's 9-8 in favour of Non Vics.

 

[bh90210fan]

Is that true when you factor in the number of clubs?

So when it was 11 Vic clubs, plus Sydney, WCE & Bris...by 'more times' do you mean more than 11/14 times,or just more than 50/50?

and last I checked, Geelong is indeed in Victoria....just down the road a bit in fact.

The argument was that since ground rationalisation has come about that non Melbourne clubs have dominated the top 2 positions on the ladder. Supposedly providing that teams outside of Victoria get a easy ride to the top of the ladder.

If you change it to non Victorian instead of ‘non Melbourne’ then all of a sudden the scales are tipped in the Victorian clubs favour, due to the dominance of Geelong since 2000.

 

[tigertigertiger]

If I counted properly, 9-8 for interstate grand final winners when playing against vic teams

20 of the last 28 grand finals have had an interstate team or two interstate teams in the grand final

There is no vic advantage