Mod. Notice The "I want to talk about old s**t that has nothing to with the OP but has relevence to something" thread.

[BlakeyNoFlakey]

Purely CS?
Disagree heaps.
He had no choice but to rebuild the team, and what he is guilty of is getting this cobbled list to continually overachieve.
Of course, he is coach, and has massive input and responsibility, but the list is not his fault.

I never said the list was his fault, I said the brand or style of game we now play that he has built into this team is all CS, and its continual failure in finals is all his fault too. Now maybe if you want to be cute, you can say some of his assistants are also to blame too, but the buck stops with CS. I can see there's no point in discussing this with you any longer, as obviously you're a CS apologist. So good luck sticking up for him through the next failed season. It'll be a lonely job.

 

[Vdubs]

I never said the list was his fault, I said the brand or style of game we now play that he has built into this team is all CS, and its continual failure in finals is all his fault too. Now maybe if you want to be cute, you can say some of his assistants are also to blame too, but the buck stops with CS. I can see there's no point in discussing this with you any longer, as obviously you're a CS apologist. So good luck sticking up for him through the next failed season. It'll be a lonely job.

Failure for you is not winning a flag, or maybe making a GF?
I have followed this team long enough to appreciate that we have to be extraordinarily good to win a flag, and we simply are not at the present time.
This style of play you talk about, when we were 11-1 last year, were you complaining about our failed style of play, or is it only relevant in finals?
Apologist? No. That would mean that I support a coach who is at best controversial, at worst, no good, yet we have seen every year, he gets us in contention.
Appreciator? Yes.

 

[Stocks_go_Up]

Its going to be a very long season... This has been coming for those who can see clearly.

 

[Mr Meow]

Dunno why we overacheive. Our list is as continually as good as anyone's.
With the bonus of getting ready made players that do not need development.
Not just trade ins, but players like Stewart, Menegola and Tim Kelly.
This is a dream for a coach.
Agree totally about 2007 etc though.
No team will ever get close to that sort of level again.
Not just because of extra teams, more players etc.
But kids just aren't as skillful. Auskick is hopeless skills wise, kids just don't kick the footy on the street like they used to.

I'm no Scott apologist but we are all seriously guilty of overrating our list over the past five years. Our ladder position continues to flatter us due to being the most dominant home side in the AFL (an attribute that is of zero value come finals time) and other sides seeming to take a while to get it together. There just hasn't been that many great home and away seasons compiled in the past few years. The select few competitive sides do step up their game at the business end of the year and our players/game plan are exposed as finals-incapable.

It is very disappointing given that from half time against Collingwood until half time against Richmond we more than held our own. Time and time again we've shown this kind of tease - but fail to do it for whole seasons, whole finals series or even whole matches. I'm fine with attributing plenty of blame to Scott for the nature of those failures but at the same time it highlights the players themselves of being unfit for purpose (when it comes to being the best team in it). We're just constantly the 4th-6th best team in it and a couple of times the ladder position has been above that. Yet nobody, from our team or others, seriously had us as contenders most of the time. If we finish 1st or 2nd this season, it will be no different.

 

[Mr Meow]

My hot take is the team looks fine and will play some good footy this year, and at other times not so good. We'll all argue constantly about meaningless s**t and the only way we would all make up and be happy is a premiership so an easily discounted chance.

In other words back to it, business as usual, yadda yadda.

I'm happier Geelong-wise than I was in the latter half last season when the mask was slipping but I remained hopeful for a reversion to "best team in the land". It was clear if we could hold onto a top 4 spot we were still a smokey for a flag and that remained true after the Collingwood QF debacle. With the West Coast game and then at least putting up a fight against the soon-to-be premiers before being overwhelmed, it was at least our most honourable finals exit since 2013. We had a serious amount of hope at half time in that match and it's the hope that kills you, but the entire second half of the season meant how things turned out more or less made sense.

Expectations are off now. A dignified ending with a few highlights for the veterans, continued development of the youngsters and mid range players stepping up (well hopefully stepping up - stagnating or declining is a possibility for many) are things to look forward to. We should remain more than competitive on our day and win about as many as we lose. Delusional or otherwise, there has been a belief we can win the flag most years since our last one. That seems to be the case in-house, but as supporters it's not the end of the world to anticipate a season drifting down the ladder.

 

[dazbroncos]

Its going to be a very long season... This has been coming for those who can see clearly.

If you throw the same dart at a wall you will eventually hit the spot you are trying to hit. Go Catters

 

[FredLeDeux]

If you throw the same dart at a wall you will eventually hit the spot you are trying to hit. Go Catters

Only if you can see clearly

 

[Cataholic]

Agree with slow method out of the backline. We don’t score many goals do we. Look at post bye last year. Scott is not a game plan visionary type of coach. He finds players to do the same thing over again. Why not try some speedy style out of back half for a quarter or two?
Pre season only but.....

Keep doing the same thing and keep getting the same result..... Who woulda thunk it??

CS is either just not astute enough to understand the flaws in his game plan, or he's too smug and arrogant to admit them.

In any event, it appears there's been a gross negligence towards doing anything to improve the player's skills by hand and foot. They're woeful. And even that in itself sabotages them before they even get on the field.......

I've been quite supportive of CS simply because he's OUR coach, but I'm wavering now.

 

[Seeds]

I'm no Scott apologist but we are all seriously guilty of overrating our list over the past five years. Our ladder position continues to flatter us due to being the most dominant home side in the AFL (an attribute that is of zero value come finals time) and other sides seeming to take a while to get it together. There just hasn't been that many great home and away seasons compiled in the past few years. The select few competitive sides do step up their game at the business end of the year and our players/game plan are exposed as finals-incapable.

It is very disappointing given that from half time against Collingwood until half time against Richmond we more than held our own. Time and time again we've shown this kind of tease - but fail to do it for whole seasons, whole finals series or even whole matches. I'm fine with attributing plenty of blame to Scott for the nature of those failures but at the same time it highlights the players themselves of being unfit for purpose (when it comes to being the best team in it). We're just constantly the 4th-6th best team in it and a couple of times the ladder position has been above that. Yet nobody, from our team or others, seriously had us as contenders most of the time. If we finish 1st or 2nd this season, it will be no different.

what poor analysis. We only play a third of our games at home (Most against interstate sides) and our record at home isnt amazing anyway. All other teams play at least half their games at home. Richmond plays more then half.

our list has been the best list in the comp since 2016. The only thing that has stopped multiple premierships is a terrible risk averse game plan and continued brain fades from the mc and coaches in the finals.... oh and lack of home games compared to other teams, particularly in finals.

 

[Baby Duck]

We need a terrible year to reset the clock so to speak. We have been treading water for the last five years and apparently thats good enough. A few ego's around the club need deflating, and a year of embarrassing defeats should be enough to blow open the door and let out the farts that the coaching staff and some of the players seem to be marinating in. The supporters expect too much and overrate the list. We have a glut of middling players and a few ageing stars that just cant back it up every week to the same lofty standards. If we reach finals this year it will be off the back of wins at home and, as always, individual efforts from players that should be the cream on top rather than the main contributors. There should be no place for anyone that continually doubles down on strategies that have been proven finals failures year after year.

On SM-G955F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Mad_Hatter]

what poor analysis. We only play a third of our games at home (Most against interstate sides) and our record at home isnt amazing anyway. All other teams play at least half their games at home. Richmond plays more then half.

our list has been the best list in the comp since 2016. The only thing that has stopped multiple premierships is a terrible risk averse game plan and continued brain fades from the mc and coaches in the finals.... oh and lack of home games compared to other teams, particularly in finals.

Sums it up perfectly.
Our style is 100% down to not taking risks and not giving away the ball, unfortunately we have players that cough up the ball time and again.
Honestly I look at our list and I see a list that's natural game style would be one of fast ball movement into an open forwardline.
We have a handful of genuine 80m players (being those who run 30 and kick 50) through the middle and half back (of which not many of them are particularly accurate), we have some very good to brilliant one on one contested marking forwards (Hawkins probably the best in the comp) who also are average at best at pack marking and we have smart and deadly small forwards who can create opportunities when the ball hits the ground.
That to me says we should play a faster style and get it into an open forwardline that now has space to create.
All I see now is lack of any structure, be in around the contest, behind or forward of the ball, and a style that requires a skillset from the players that they simply don't have.

We saw it work perfectly pre-bye last year, possibly with injury to Duncan and Clark that created an issue for the MC and why they started the 2018 slow chip style with 9 tall defenders but it just won't work.
For those who will make this point, anything short of a flag isn't failure, not putting ourselves in the best possible position to succeed is failure however, and from my POV the way we play, with the players we have, we do not give ourselves the best possible chance.
Now to completely dissolve all of what I just said, it's only pre-season, lets see how we are going at round 5.

 

[Partridge]

Purely CS?
Disagree heaps.
He had no choice but to rebuild the team, and what he is guilty of is getting this cobbled list to continually overachieve.
Of course, he is coach, and has massive input and responsibility, but the list is not his fault.

If it's a cobbled list, he and others are the cobblers.

No one forced the club to give away draft picks. They chose to. They also chose to grab established mature players instead of investing in the draft. They went and got McIntosh, Clark, Stanley, Smith, Dangerfield, Henderson, Scott Selwood, Tuohy, Crameri, Rohan, Dahlhaus, and now Steven and Jenkins. They've chosen to completely neglect the ruck position to the point there's only one actual ruckman on the list up to standard.

There are definitely other parties at fault, and yes if the list is down to Wells, he should absolutely be in the crosshairs for that. But insane selection decisions - particularly in finals - are 100% Scott. No apologist can cover that up. Although I'm sure plenty will continue to try.

 

[Partridge]

True, we will NEVER replicate the lists we had 07-11.
Even then we could not win 08, 10.
I don't expect to see a Cats team of that quality again- could we pinch one? Who knows, but given how hard they are to win, and that we have to be that much better than Tigers, Hawks and Pies to win a flag at the G, and that we did not win 08, I seriously doubt it.
And if you believed we were truly a worthy 11-1 team at rd 12 last year, then we disagree.
The 5-5 after that gave us 16-6, so we finished on top.
If you thought we were flag favourites because we fell into top spot, fine.

How do you know that?

 

[Vdubs]

How do you know that?

In my life time, if you prove me wrong, I'll be rapt.
That list was a rare mix of diverse talent and we had no weakness all over the ground, and how many AA's in 07-09?

 

[Vdubs]

If it's a cobbled list, he and others are the cobblers.

No one forced the club to give away draft picks. They chose to. They also chose to grab established mature players instead of investing in the draft. They went and got McIntosh, Clark, Stanley, Smith, Dangerfield, Henderson, Scott Selwood, Tuohy, Crameri, Rohan, Dahlhaus, and now Steven and Jenkins. They've chosen to completely neglect the ruck position to the point there's only one actual ruckman on the list up to standard.

There are definitely other parties at fault, and yes if the list is down to Wells, he should absolutely be in the crosshairs for that. But insane selection decisions - particularly in finals - are 100% Scott. No apologist can cover that up. Although I'm sure plenty will continue to try.

Worthwhile choices most of those. There were misses, but we knew what we were getting.
With our bottom end potential draft choices, I for one was happy selecting most of those players.
Everyone can understand that the aim to keep our list competitive while we still had a skeleton of our successful era was not only tempting, but also prudent.

CS does not need apologists. He has those that appreciate and respect him for the great job he's done and still does, and he has the rest who are impatient and frustrated.
Of course he is not perfect, and he readily admits his flaws and failures, and he cops a lot of flak for his players too, which the players readily admit, but his detractors don't.

 

[Vdubs]

Hate to say it, but I'm not sure if WE even get to September.

That's a fair assertion?

 

[Vdubs]

Its going to be a very long season... This has been coming for those who can see clearly.

For me, a very long season means going deep in September, 25 games.
I think we may be looking at 22 games only. Not so long.

 

[Mr Meow]

what poor analysis. We only play a third of our games at home (Most against interstate sides) and our record at home isnt amazing anyway. All other teams play at least half their games at home. Richmond plays more then half.

our list has been the best list in the comp since 2016. The only thing that has stopped multiple premierships is a terrible risk averse game plan and continued brain fades from the mc and coaches in the finals.... oh and lack of home games compared to other teams, particularly in finals.

Our record at home the past decade has been truly exceptional. If we played finals (more than that one off) there as well, I've no doubt we would have made further grand finals since 2011. Our form at the MCG has been a barrier to recent success. In the past we had better lists and a more convincing game plan to overcome the MCG factor. The 2007-2011 list was head and shoulders above the rest during that time. Since then it's really been nothing special.

 

[Turbocat]

True, we will NEVER replicate the lists we had 07-11.
Even then we could not win 08, 10.
I don't expect to see a Cats team of that quality again- could we pinch one? Who knows, but given how hard they are to win, and that we have to be that much better than Tigers, Hawks and Pies to win a flag at the G, and that we did not win 08, I seriously doubt it.
And if you believed we were truly a worthy 11-1 team at rd 12 last year, then we disagree.
The 5-5 after that gave us 16-6, so we finished on top.
If you thought we were flag favourites because we fell into top spot, fine.

There is something the same yet different about they way we are looking at this Vdubs. You look at our list and say CS is a miracle worker to get the most out of what we have but we fail in end because we are not good enough. There is something valid around that this that.Do we need more talent , that is impossible to deny. Are we the most talent team in the afl becuase we finished top? I doubt anyone believes that.

11-1 etc do I believe this or that. Flag favourites? ..I think I was reasonably consistent most of last year... I didnt place any value on wins thru the season, till finals and perfromance in Sept , I dont value those wins becuase of the way we win them, because CS "max's the list" style. It not the wins we are debating really is it? Its if we have enough talent.

I cant speak for others, but I get the feel there are others who agree with me that what CS does, is he cleverly coaches to get us into that finals zone and then hopes. Does he max the list or does he ensure we have succeeded in making the finals using a method that high degree in success winning 14 from 22 games but so far has been shown to fail when it counts. In Thompson terms.. do we play a style that wins finals?

To some degree we wil not solve this, one can train a less talented althlete to high level and they can only be as good as they can be...your point. Where as I look at them and see enough talent there to play a differnt way. Are they the most talented NO. Are they talented enought to win it. YES. To succeed in a riskier way , one may have to risk failure.

Rel to this thread..I watched the ESS game , and much the same yet again. pos the ball on the backline, hold it , hold it, hold it..then in the end it gets bombed forward without much system and we rely on some sort of cleveness that a Miers or someone can invent. Having said that, the two games we have played are almost irrelevant, we have played without our most talented side. Come the main season we will see what we do then

To me, IF the only way to ever succed is to have a the best, most talented list , like in 07 etc, Geelong will never ever win a flag again. NEVER. We assemebled that list by fluke, good early picks AND good late picks AND good luck with FS AND two less exapnsion team AND less draft distortions with NGA etc.

I believe we can win another flag with the talent we have if it was played in a more attacking method. We may also go the other way and fall while trying to implement it. In the end the way CS has chosen to go seems the safe option. We get enough wins each season, we satisfy members at home, we satisfy the commercial side of the club, we win enough to be on TV ... and the we play in the finals and just hope the other side dont have a good night or have issues like West Coast did. We almost could have had our best finals win in years V the Tigers... "almost" to me is the key word about the CS era of play.

 

[Mr Meow]

Over the past 8 years we've had some combination of crap rucks, no dependable second key forward, dysfunctional forward line, one dimensional midfield and slow defence. A number of years we had an oversaturation of veterans and youngsters with a lack of A listers in their prime. A huge amount of transition and change to move the list from its 2013 profile to 2019. I know all lists have had turnover but for teams "remaining in contention" ours was significant. Not saying management deserved a pat on the back for this because we easily could've decided to slide down the ladder, rebuild from the ground up and arguably get a flag quicker that way. But this is how I see it. When others say Geelong have had a sensational list over the past 8 years it always surprises me. They mustn't be watching that list bundle it every year. That's due to a lack of quality, not heart or character. So it's actually far more slanderous to say the list has been top notch and the players have under delivered. Our list, especially strength in depth, simply hasn't been at the required standard. Good enough to make finals, good enough to make it to the last 4, but not good enough to take the final steps.

 

[someday-somehow]

Purely CS?
Disagree heaps.
He had no choice but to rebuild the team, and what he is guilty of is getting this cobbled list to continually overachieve.
Of course, he is coach, and has massive input and responsibility, but the list is not his fault.

Please tell me this - whose responsibility is it to cut ageing stars such as chapman, kelly and johnson when they clearly had 1-2 years left in them and then start bringing in ageing club rejects from other clubs (list too long to mention).

I can understand one or the other but not both!, this sort of decision making reeks of a club not having a purpose or plan when it comes to list management. How can you say the head coach does not at least have some responsibility in list management?.

 

[someday-somehow]

Worthwhile choices most of those. There were misses, but we knew what we were getting.
With our bottom end potential draft choices, I for one was happy selecting most of those players.
Everyone can understand that the aim to keep our list competitive while we still had a skeleton of our successful era was not only tempting, but also prudent.

CS does not need apologists. He has those that appreciate and respect him for the great job he's done and still does, and he has the rest who are impatient and frustrated.
Of course he is not perfect, and he readily admits his flaws and failures, and he cops a lot of flak for his players too, which the players readily admit, but his detractors don't.

That may have been the case post 2012 but surely you must acknowledge that we shouldn't be doing that in 2019-2020. In any case you have made a fair assumption that this was the reason for doing so.

We built a very successful team by hitting the draft hard, other clubs have done it (Brisbane, Hawks, Richmond) and yet you tell us we can't do that again - well why not? The only exception to this is drafting in a ready made star to bolster our list such as Ottens or Dangerfield and you have to expect to pay for it as WCE had to for Kelly.

I don't expect to make or win grand finals every year but what I do expect is the club giving us the best possibly chance of achieving that in the future and this is just not happening and hasn't been for many years now.

 

[Sttew]

Please tell me this - whose responsibility is it to cut ageing stars such as chapman, kelly and johnson when they clearly had 1-2 years left in them and then start bringing in ageing club rejects from other clubs (list too long to mention).

I can understand one or the other but not both!, this sort of decision making reeks of a club not having a purpose or plan when it comes to list management. How can you say the head coach does not at least have some responsibility in list management?.

When is a coach supposed to start cutting aging players? All at once? This was the dilemma that confronted Geelong. Its great having a tight group of players come through at the same time and form the nucleus of a premiership team, but the spin-off is that you have to manage their exodus without bottoming out (unless that's what you want) and at the same time keep a rein on the salary cap.

I thought Chappy was cooked when Geelong let him go. Wasn't he offered 1 year but he asked for more? Yet in his last year at Geelong he managed only 8 games.

Here's what Scott said about Steve Johnson;

“There are more considerations than just opportunities for young players. There are TPP (total player payment issues), there is long-term planning.

“I would like to think there is an opportunity to get a win-win situation from a really difficult situation.

“There doesn’t have to be a winner and a loser out of that situation.

“I have never been one to underrate Steve Johnson. I would just say that I am pleased for him.”

Scott also thought Menzel and Lincoln McCarthy would fill the void. We know how that ended up for Geelong

 

[Spazz Cat]

Our record at home the past decade has been truly exceptional. If we played finals (more than that one off) there as well, I've no doubt we would have made further grand finals since 2011. Our form at the MCG has been a barrier to recent success. In the past we had better lists and a more convincing game plan to overcome the MCG factor. The 2007-2011 list was head and shoulders above the rest during that time. Since then it's really been nothing special.

The thing is we would of won those games in Melbourne anyway. Cause we've had a good team.
No team's list is as good as 2007-11 and never will be again.
Since 2016 we've had the best MF o paper easy, and the best spine.
What else could you want? Yeah we've had poor rucks but so have all the recent premiers.
This year, yeah fair enough if we make top4 we'll be overachieving heaps but not the last few.

 

[someday-somehow]

When is a coach supposed to start cutting aging players? All at once? This was the dilemma that confronted Geelong. Its great having a tight group of players come through at the same time and form the nucleus of a premiership team, but the spin-off is that you have to manage their exodus without bottoming out (unless that's what you want) and at the same time keep a rein on the salary cap.

I thought Chappy was cooked when Geelong let him go. Wasn't he offered 1 year but he asked for more? Yet in his last year at Geelong he managed only 8 games.

Here's what Scott said about Steve Johnson;

“There are more considerations than just opportunities for young players. There are TPP (total player payment issues), there is long-term planning.

“I would like to think there is an opportunity to get a win-win situation from a really difficult situation.

“There doesn’t have to be a winner and a loser out of that situation.

“I have never been one to underrate Steve Johnson. I would just say that I am pleased for him.”

Scott also thought Menzel and Lincoln McCarthy would fill the void. We know how that ended up for Geelong

Gotta learn to start reading posts and the intent behind them.

As I stated in my original post I can understand the thought process behind cutting ageing stars to play kids, what I can't understand is bringing in others of lesser quality. I cannot think of a team in the modern era who has employed that philosophy and it bought them a premiership.

We seem to do it year upon year and for me the acquisition of Jenkins and Stephens was the last straw - (Stephens played all right yesterday but can he sustain that over multiple seasons) - we have many list spots taken up by "äverage" footballers when we should be hitting the draft - if that means "bottoming out" then so be it.