Opinion The I Was Wrong thread- Where Tom Atkins posts go to die

[dazbroncos]

I was a vocal opponent of the smith trade. Whilst I still think he has massive red flags, the payoff on field has more than covered the risk.

I never thought he had the upside that he has showed this year.

I am very happy to have been wrong.

I was very tepid on Smith… but his on field has totally exceeded my incorrect and far too low ceilings. And his work with Holmes. Atkins.. PFD etc has been first rate and I’m eating my hat because of it.

Jury is till out on the off field stuff and looking for gradual improvements there

Go Catters

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Mullin is a fantastic kick over 30-40m. He hits them sweet and they go low and hard.

I have no doubt that as he continues to develop and just play more games, the offensive side of his game is going to be very strong.

You can see he is focussed on locking down on his man right now, but he is starting to get better at knowing when to get involved in the play. He was doing that more last night when he was playing in defence rather than a pure tagging mid.

I don’t think he is going to be a pure tagger for much longer. He will be a 2 way mid by the middle of next season.

20 games ago too you could his technique just making for very high, long hang time kicks

Is unfair that he's learned it so quick when I started learning to kick at age 6, 20ish years before he was born and he's much better than I ever was

 

[Hinkley29]

I was very tepid on Smith… but his on field has totally exceeded my incorrect and far too low ceilings. And his work with Holmes. Atkins.. PFD etc has been first rate and I’m eating my hat because of it.

Jury is till out on the off field stuff and looking for gradual improvements there

Go Catters

Totally agree.

He is still a huge risk off field, and it could still end in tears. But if he plays one more blinder this year it will be enough to pay off any dramas that occur down the road.

If he does that we will be playing with house money for the rest of his contract.

 

[Footy Smarts]

I'd break Danger's finals performances at Geelong into 3 periods.

2016-2019: This was peak Danger dominating week in week out. Our entire setup was to help him dominate. Almost every final he was fumbly, nervous and panicky. It felt like that spread through the team in that period. His only really quality game in that period was the 2017 SF against Sydney where we changed it up and he played full forward. As a mid he was miles below his H&A form and I think his form drop was the main reason our finals performance was so poor compared to H&A. Without a dominant Danger we were an ordinary team and in finals we didn't have a dominant Danger.

2020-2022 QF: Wasn't the main man in our setup anymore and was struggling with injury issues. Struggled to really impact outside of the 2020 SF which was the most one sided final you'll ever see. He wasn't the cause of our problems but he didn't really impact games in a major way. At this point I doubted whether he'd ever really stand up as a finals performer.

2022 PF-2025: Absolutely unreal. Maybe us winning the 2022 QF without him really impacting took a weight off his shoulders? In the 6 finals since then he's put in 3 legendary games (2022 PF, 2022 GF, 2025 PF), 1 excellent game (2024 QF), 1 solid game (2025 QF) and only one disappointing game (2024 PF).

Before 2022 he was a legendary player with, by his standards, a very poor finals record. Since then he's been a sporadic H&A player (ie when we need him) and a legendary finals performer.

2022 removed the only question mark about whether he's a true legend of the game. Another flag as captain and he's a strong candidate to be considered the best player of this century.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Can we get this bloke to post here?

 

[catsfootyfan89]

People are finally coming around to it. Saving Danger for finals was always the last piece.

Off the top of my head I can't really think of another example of a club doing something like this with a player like Dangerfield. Are there any other examples of someone staying out of the midfield for most of a season only to be dumped straight into the furnace as soon as the finals begin?

 

[Mr Meow]

Off the top of my head I can't really think of another example of a club doing something like this with a player like Dangerfield. Are there any other examples of someone staying out of the midfield for most of a season only to be dumped straight into the furnace as soon as the finals begin?

Rory Laird for Adelaide this season, but it was not planned at all. Desperation.

Off the top of my head I can't think of clear examples. De Goey at Collingwood to some degree this year. I'm not sure if Akermanis' forward/midfield split shifted in some seasons come finals. Not from memory.

Dusty was a bit the opposite. They sent him forward more for finals.

 

[Seeds]

Off the top of my head I can't really think of another example of a club doing something like this with a player like Dangerfield. Are there any other examples of someone staying out of the midfield for most of a season only to be dumped straight into the furnace as soon as the finals begin?

He wasnt really a proper midfielder though. He started centre square a number of times then went foward. Its not like he was back in his old midfield role.

 

[Seeds]

I'd break Danger's finals performances at Geelong into 3 periods.

2016-2019: This was peak Danger dominating week in week out. Our entire setup was to help him dominate. Almost every final he was fumbly, nervous and panicky. It felt like that spread through the team in that period. His only really quality game in that period was the 2017 SF against Sydney where we changed it up and he played full forward. As a mid he was miles below his H&A form and I think his form drop was the main reason our finals performance was so poor compared to H&A. Without a dominant Danger we were an ordinary team and in finals we didn't have a dominant Danger.

2020-2022 QF: Wasn't the main man in our setup anymore and was struggling with injury issues. Struggled to really impact outside of the 2020 SF which was the most one sided final you'll ever see. He wasn't the cause of our problems but he didn't really impact games in a major way. At this point I doubted whether he'd ever really stand up as a finals performer.

2022 PF-2025: Absolutely unreal. Maybe us winning the 2022 QF without him really impacting took a weight off his shoulders? In the 6 finals since then he's put in 3 legendary games (2022 PF, 2022 GF, 2025 PF), 1 excellent game (2024 QF), 1 solid game (2025 QF) and only one disappointing game (2024 PF).

Before 2022 he was a legendary player with, by his standards, a very poor finals record. Since then he's been a sporadic H&A player (ie when we need him) and a legendary finals performer.

2022 removed the only question mark about whether he's a true legend of the game. Another flag as captain and he's a strong candidate to be considered the best player of this century.

The 2016-19 commentary is just false. My guess is associative bias linked to the poor performance of the team. In the 2016 finals he averaged 37 possession a game. You dont do that being fumbly, nervous and panicky.

Yes im sure there were some rushed passes and blazes at key times that have stuck in your memory. But so there was a number of times on friday night. We forget them when we win. Thats just danger. Always has been. The balls he wins, and the contests he breaks away from more then make up for it.

 

[catsfootyfan89]

He wasnt really a proper midfielder though. He started centre square a number of times then went foward. Its not like he was back in his old midfield role.

Didn't he attend 15-ish clearance bounces?

 

[Mr Meow]

I'd break Danger's finals performances at Geelong into 3 periods.

2016-2019: This was peak Danger dominating week in week out. Our entire setup was to help him dominate. Almost every final he was fumbly, nervous and panicky. It felt like that spread through the team in that period. His only really quality game in that period was the 2017 SF against Sydney where we changed it up and he played full forward. As a mid he was miles below his H&A form and I think his form drop was the main reason our finals performance was so poor compared to H&A. Without a dominant Danger we were an ordinary team and in finals we didn't have a dominant Danger.

2020-2022 QF: Wasn't the main man in our setup anymore and was struggling with injury issues. Struggled to really impact outside of the 2020 SF which was the most one sided final you'll ever see. He wasn't the cause of our problems but he didn't really impact games in a major way. At this point I doubted whether he'd ever really stand up as a finals performer.

2022 PF-2025: Absolutely unreal. Maybe us winning the 2022 QF without him really impacting took a weight off his shoulders? In the 6 finals since then he's put in 3 legendary games (2022 PF, 2022 GF, 2025 PF), 1 excellent game (2024 QF), 1 solid game (2025 QF) and only one disappointing game (2024 PF).

Before 2022 he was a legendary player with, by his standards, a very poor finals record. Since then he's been a sporadic H&A player (ie when we need him) and a legendary finals performer.

2022 removed the only question mark about whether he's a true legend of the game. Another flag as captain and he's a strong candidate to be considered the best player of this century.

Definitely overstating things on the negative side, especially putting blame on him for us folding in those earlier finals. He like all of the team stuffed up a bit more when we were under the pump.

Our team were hunted by those with better runners who dealt with chaos balls up forward and in defence during those losses. Our slow, lumbering defence and veterans on their last legs were far more to blame. I watched all the extended highlights recently and those were the issues more than midfield supply.

We also had a just barely functioning forward line with too many passengers and zero pressure ability. Again in finals it just wasn't good enough against the very best if they brought their maximum intensity.

Of the years we were contenders, 2017 stood out as a BOG SF sandwiched between two poor performances. 2019 PF he had a great first half and invisible second half after being BOG in the QF. He had a poor 2020 GF (outstanding finals preceding it) but otherwise you really couldn't put much blame on him across that whole timeframe. Mids will rarely look amazing when their team is getting belted in finals at either end of the ground, that's all.

 

[cats_09]

Didn't he attend 15-ish clearance bounces?

This was our CBAs for the night



The Humphries one was fun to watch as it was completely unplanned - not sure if it was him or a teammate that had come onto the ground but we had 7 in defence & were one short in the guts. Humphries got on his bike to get to the centre bounce attendance so we wouldn't get a 6-6-6 violation

 

[iameviljez]

2016-2019: This was peak Danger dominating week in week out. Our entire setup was to help him dominate. Almost every final he was fumbly, nervous and panicky. It felt like that spread through the team in that period. His only really quality game in that period was the 2017 SF against Sydney where we changed it up and he played full forward. As a mid he was miles below his H&A form and I think his form drop was the main reason our finals performance was so poor compared to H&A. Without a dominant Danger we were an ordinary team and in finals we didn't have a dominant Danger.

He was still very, very good in finals in that period (especially 2016).

I just feel like, after years of playing with Adelaide not being in contention, he felt like he had to put the Superman cape on if we were going to win (and, to be honest, given how hollow our list was, he wasn't wrong).

 

[MacStradbroke]

This was our CBAs for the night

View attachment 2432622

The Humphries one was fun to watch as it was completely unplanned - not sure if it was him or a teammate that had come onto the ground but we had 7 in defence & were one short in the guts. Humphries got on his bike to get to the centre bounce attendance so we wouldn't get a 6-6-6 violation
[/QUOTE]
Miers & Clark 4 CBAs 4 clearances, nice.

 

[z547043]

I've been harsh on Dempsey in the past for not putting his head over the ball and taking the contact.

If he keeps doing the crazy stuff he's been capable of in recent months, I think I'll permanently have egg on my face on that one.

I don’t think you are alone on this one.

I was chatting to a mate (Crows fan) after the QF and brought up that my only knock on him is he doesn’t always put his head over it and body the ball, but like he said to me, do you really want him to?

And it sort of changed my thinking, much like Scott and the club focus on what the playing group can do as opposed to what they can’t. Maybe we should focus on what he brings. Do we really want the slightly built Dempsey going back with the flight and injuring himself or taking hard hits that impact his ability to cover the ground? It’s not giving him a pass and there will be times when he needs to go, but a healthy dose of self-preservation is not the worst trait for a player like Dempsey to have if it enables him to stay fit and cover the KM’s he does.

So I don’t think it was/is a unfair criticism, but we are probably on the same page here as it’s just a part of his game that we accept with the rest of the package he brings. It’s like a Stevie J situation. We accepted the WTF is he doing situations for the incredible things he could do.

 

[iameviljez]

And it sort of changed my thinking, much like Scott and the club focus on what the playing group can do as opposed to what they can’t. Maybe we should focus on what he brings. Do we really want the slightly built Dempsey going back with the flight and injuring himself or taking hard hits that impact his ability to cover the ground?

Scotty has said the same thing about a few of the smaller blokes actually. I think it was in relation to Miers, but you get the idea.

It's not 1985 any more, getting smashed and concussed has big consequences now.

 

[frggr]

I'd break Danger's finals performances at Geelong into 3 periods.

2016-2019: This was peak Danger dominating week in week out. Our entire setup was to help him dominate. Almost every final he was fumbly, nervous and panicky. It felt like that spread through the team in that period. His only really quality game in that period was the 2017 SF against Sydney where we changed it up and he played full forward. As a mid he was miles below his H&A form and I think his form drop was the main reason our finals performance was so poor compared to H&A. Without a dominant Danger we were an ordinary team and in finals we didn't have a dominant Danger.

2020-2022 QF: Wasn't the main man in our setup anymore and was struggling with injury issues. Struggled to really impact outside of the 2020 SF which was the most one sided final you'll ever see. He wasn't the cause of our problems but he didn't really impact games in a major way. At this point I doubted whether he'd ever really stand up as a finals performer.

2022 PF-2025: Absolutely unreal. Maybe us winning the 2022 QF without him really impacting took a weight off his shoulders? In the 6 finals since then he's put in 3 legendary games (2022 PF, 2022 GF, 2025 PF), 1 excellent game (2024 QF), 1 solid game (2025 QF) and only one disappointing game (2024 PF).

Before 2022 he was a legendary player with, by his standards, a very poor finals record. Since then he's been a sporadic H&A player (ie when we need him) and a legendary finals performer.

2022 removed the only question mark about whether he's a true legend of the game. Another flag as captain and he's a strong candidate to be considered the best player of this century.

I agree. There was a period where Danger tried to do it all and do too much and it was to the detriment of the team.

When he reined it in a bit (and got better support) we started doing better.

Yes his numbers were huge, but they weren't as influential as, say, Friday's game.

 

[Spearman]

Mullin is a fantastic kick over 30-40m. He hits them sweet and they go low and hard. When he kicks those they cover the ground quickly which can be a huge weapon, especially when switching play or hitting a man who is in space in transition.

I have no doubt that as he continues to develop and just play more games, the offensive side of his game is going to be very strong.

You can see he is focussed on locking down on his man right now, but he is starting to get better at knowing when to get involved in the play. He was doing that more last night when he was playing in defence rather than a pure tagging mid.

I don’t think he is going to be a pure tagger for much longer. He will be a 2 way mid by the middle of next season.

My view of Oisinn is that each year he works on a new thing. Next year will be interesting as to where he will be utilized. Wherever it is, I hope they train him in dashing forward with ball and speed and then nailing that low kick to a dangerous position.

 

[Mr Meow]

I agree. There was a period where Danger tried to do it all and do too much and it was to the detriment of the team.

When he reined it in a bit (and got better support) we started doing better.

Yes his numbers were huge, but they weren't as influential as, say, Friday's game.

Chicken and the egg though.

When we had the ascendancy and game on our terms on various finals, Danger almost always looked better. Rather than his teammate gets swarmed and fumbled, scrubs a scrappy kick to him and he blind bombs from congestion with 3 more players about to swamp him.

Of course there were unforced errors too, but a lot of those long bombs would've worked if we had a fleet of agile, fast, creative, smart forwards who could turn chaos balls into magic. Or if he had elite outside runners to handball out to. We have that now. Those 2016-2021 sides they were in limited supply and our slow, stodgy team made it tricky for a number of A graders to look their best.

Compare the first and second halves of the 2019 prelim and it's chalk and cheese. Hunters and proactive one half, then lethargic and reactive in the 2nd. Most players struggle in the latter environment.

 

[Seeds]

He was still very, very good in finals in that period (especially 2016).

I just feel like, after years of playing with Adelaide not being in contention, he felt like he had to put the Superman cape on if we were going to win (and, to be honest, given how hollow our list was, he wasn't wrong).

So kind of like the superman cape he put on last night and in the 2022 finals series.

 

[Seeds]

Didn't he attend 15-ish clearance bounces?

Yeah and then went foward afterwards. Kind of like tom stewart last year who attended plenty of centre bounces and then ran back to defence as soon as the centre bounce was over.

 

[Spearman]

I agree. There was a period where Danger tried to do it all and do too much and it was to the detriment of the team.

When he reined it in a bit (and got better support) we started doing better.

Yes his numbers were huge, but they weren't as influential as, say, Friday's game.

I've said it before and believe it totally, it is detrimental to the whole team especially when there are capable players in the side, to have a guy think and try to do it all. There are a lot of aspects to it, some guys are too timid and reluctant to impose themselves into the action. Others are too easy to give up their responsibilities and opportunities. I thought for a couple years, Dangerfield and maybe Selwood took on too much and didn't push the others to challenge them in those contests. I think Dangerfield sometimes takes or knocks the ball away from one of his teammates who are there ready to take it and do something with it. There is a development to it. Selwood and Dangerfield grow older and wiser, teammates are tested more and capabilities shown. Good leadership, let the team grow up a bit, and then in the big games, go all out.
Don't know what happens behind the doors, I'd of liked to see them challenge the boys to knock them off the ball or take it from them first.
Since Dangerfield started doing hammies and moving forward, I've been hoping for these cameos in the middle just raging around and through the contests.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Didn't he attend 15-ish clearance bounces?

Better than centre bounces you can see his heat map



Atkins for comparison

 

[CatToTheFuture]

This was our CBAs for the night

View attachment 2432622

The Humphries one was fun to watch as it was completely unplanned - not sure if it was him or a teammate that had come onto the ground but we had 7 in defence & were one short in the guts. Humphries got on his bike to get to the centre bounce attendance so we wouldn't get a 6-6-6 violation

Miers & Clark 4 CBAs 4 clearances, nice.
[/QUOTE]
Only one each of those were centre clearances but 25% is a great strike rate

 

[frggr]

I've said it before and believe it totally, it is detrimental to the whole team especially when there are capable players in the side, to have a guy think and try to do it all. There are a lot of aspects to it, some guys are too timid and reluctant to impose themselves into the action. Others are too easy to give up their responsibilities and opportunities. I thought for a couple years, Dangerfield and maybe Selwood took on too much and didn't push the others to challenge them in those contests. I think Dangerfield sometimes takes or knocks the ball away from one of his teammates who are there ready to take it and do something with it. There is a development to it. Selwood and Dangerfield grow older and wiser, teammates are tested more and capabilities shown. Good leadership, let the team grow up a bit, and then in the big games, go all out.
Don't know what happens behind the doors, I'd of liked to see them challenge the boys to knock them off the ball or take it from them first.
Since Dangerfield started doing hammies and moving forward, I've been hoping for these cameos in the middle just raging around and through the contests.

This expresses my feeling exactly. Thank you