The importance of the Academies in attracting talent

[Kwality]

FWIW the Australian Bureau of Statistics includes the Central Coast in Sydney's population.

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Random fact, if the Central Coast were removed from Sydney's population, Melbourne would be the bigger city.

10 years ago Greater Sydney ranged from the Illawarra back to the Blue Mountains & up to Newcastle - that in an operational sense for a multi natinal was doing some work for. Absolutely irrelevant to Academies.

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

Draft pick 5 is 1878 points. There is a 20% discount for an academy bid, so the points needed to match would be 1502, which means we could do it with pick 8 alone, or we would need to start combining picks. The picks that would be combined are our next available ones, so we can't just trade in a whole lot of 3rd and 4th rounds picks to get the player, they wouldn't be worth enough anyway. Let's assume the Swans stay in 4th place, giving us pick 15 in the first round and 33 in the second. Those two combined would give us 1675, so we would lose those two picks and end up with pick 58.

So yeah, you can't just trade a few dud picks at the end of the draft for a top quality player, in this situation the Swans would be spending both their first and second round picks in order to draft a player they had spend seven years developing in their academy. If there was a second player that year that was also worthy of a high pick he wouldn't end up going to the Swans, unless we had made some serious trades to bring in more first and second round picks, in which case another club in the league benefits.

You still get the option.

If we had pick in the teens, I would gladly trade our 1st and 2nd pick for a top 5 pick.

I'm just jealous of the access to kids that the northern states get, I'm even more jealous of the ability to put dibs on them from the age of 12.

I don't like the points/picks setup for the next gen academies either. They compromise the draft AND are mildly racist.

To summarise... All for academies, as long as those kids are available to all.

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

No you raised the the topic so I gave you an honest view.

The key point missed in all of this that no-one wants to address is the function of the Academies in assisting the development of young players in ways they will not otherwise be assisted.
Part of it I'm sure is with Victoria being a small state Victorians struggle with remote zones and the impact the academies have there. Perhaps with your next generation academy having zones in the NT that'll change over time, we can only hope.
I've already posted our academy has assisted 16 players that have made an AFLdebut at least. 11 for us.

Let's take our academy in my hometown for example, Broken Hill. The traditional pathway for us with the talent is SANFL scholarships. Tex Walker is the last to take this path.

Recently 2 players from their have debuted at AFL, and a 3rd is injured in our list. Isaac Cumming, Kobe Mutch, and Lachlan Tiziani.
There was an occasional player make it from there pre the Giants academy, but this number is unusual.
2 of them chose to move and play TAC cup but were assisted in their development by our academy.

Isaac Cumming took a completely new and previously unavailable option. He stayed home to grow up normally with his parents. It was possible because the academy was providing access to top level coaching and NEAFL competitlon etc.

Lots will poo poo the assistance the Academy gave to the others and insist it shouldn't be allowed because it's a traditional AFL area, which completely misses the ******* point.

Those guys may or may not have made it as far as they have without the academies assistance in the early years. Did the academies introduction of players to an AFL club and system, better equip them to make the decision to relocate and play TAC cup? Did the top level coaching in their younger years help identify the fact they could make it? You'd think so.

This isn't the key point at all. I think you would struggle to find anyone who is against developing kids in non-AFL areas. Everyone knows what they are for and the benefits that come from them.

I agree with every word you have posted except your second last para. Lots do poo poo the assistance academy clubs get and they are not missing the point at all. You guys are just choosing to ignore the point some of us are trying to make:

The academies need to be run by the afl and all players in Australia who put their name up for draft should be equally available to all clubs in Australia.

 

[The King!]

Nobody has any issue with the existence of the northern academies in principle.

Everyone want's to increase the talent base.

We have an issue with annexing the entire state as an exclusive draft zone. Having exclusive rights to every single player from a state is completely against the core foundations of a draft.

Why can't you develop the NSW talent pool for the benefit of the entire draft pool? I don't really care if they AFL has to fund the whole thing (lets be honest they do anyway, as GWS, GC and Brisbane aren't paying for anything at the moment)

Why does it have to benefit only 4 teams? How is making only 20% of the league stronger making the entire talent pool stronger?

1/ it’s not exclusive

2/ the afl has never been interested in funding it


I agree there is long term a better model there is especially if the AFL Invest in it themselves

Ours is basically funded by QBE right now, via our sponsorship etc so it’s a joke we even give up points for the players, most of them have been crap too

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

This isn't the key point at all. I think you would struggle to find anyone who is against developing kids in non-AFL areas. Everyone knows what they are for and the benefits that come from them.

I agree with every word you have posted except your second last para. Lots do poo poo the assistance academy clubs get and they are not missing the point at all. You guys are just choosing to ignore the point some of us are trying to make:

The academies need to be run by the afl and all players in Australia who put their name up for draft should be equally available to all clubs in Australia.

The AFL wouldn't have the same access to the club system and the ability to place players in the NEAFL squads.We use both these options as a fundamental part of the academy system. Any attempt to do so would fundamentally change the AFL's role and remove the Clubs ability to act it's own interests. It's unlikely the AFL would have the same ability to attract sponsorship as well.

 

[RobbieK]

You still get the option.

If we had pick in the teens, I would gladly trade our 1st and 2nd pick for a top 5 pick.

I'm just jealous of the access to kids that the northern states get, I'm even more jealous of the ability to put dibs on them from the age of 12.

I don't like the points/picks setup for the next gen academies either. They compromise the draft AND are mildly racist.

To summarise... All for academies, as long as those kids are available to all.

I get you are jealous of the potential, but that doesn't mean you should overstate what that potential advantage actually is. This thread is full of people saying we are hoarding talent, getting free swings at players, that we can just bundle together s**t picks for star draftees... and it just isn't true. No doubt it is desirable to develop a young player for an extended period of time and get preferential access in the draft, but the benefits we are getting are coming at major costs, from the amount of money it costs to run that long term development program and the kind of sacrifices to drafting we need to engage in to match high bids, even when you factor in the small discount we get.

I think there is a serious, reasonable discussion that can be had about the desirability and fairness of academies, about how to balance the desire for an even competition, an uncompromised draft while also creating necessary draft pathways for players in the non-traditional football states. It seems like most of the people posting in this thread have no desire or ability to do so (on both sides of the debate!). I'm not going to pretend that we aren't benefiting from this program, but we aren't benefiting to the extent that many are suggesting, not to mention the fact that the league as a whole is benefiting from it too.

 

[HPKS]

Technically, zero.. As a race that was seperated from the mainland Aboriginals 8000 years ago or something, they are extinct.

No not true.

http://www.shareourpride.org.au/sections/beyond-the-myths/

 

[Bojan KantKick]

If capacity is all it's about, and considering most GFs are sellouts or close to it, why the hell isn't the AFL building a 500,000 seater?

Because they spent all the money it would take on setting up and supporting the Northern clubs.

Not too mention that it is impossible.

 

[Kwality]

1/ it’s not exclusive

2/ the afl has never been interested in funding it


I agree there is long term a better model there is especially if the AFL Invest in it themselves

Ours is basically funded by QBE right now, via our sponsorship etc so it’s a joke we even give up points for the players, most of them have been crap too

I'd question the ability of the AFL to be involved, its Melbourne centric, how could it deal with the Pilbara in the North West, it has no credibility in Tas & its on the doorstep.
The Melbourne clubs want the talent, they're not interested in growing the talent pool.

If Sydney & QBE didnt kick academys off, they wouldnt exist.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Because they spent all the money it would take on setting up and supporting the Northern clubs.

Not too mention that it is impossible.

It would certainly be possible. The money involved would dwarf the cost cost of the expansion clubs to the point of insignificance. The AFL doesn't fund stadium builds.
Otherwise your spot on.

 

[Kwality]

This isn't the key point at all. I think you would struggle to find anyone who is against developing kids in non-AFL areas. Everyone knows what they are for and the benefits that come from them.

I agree with every word you have posted except your second last para. Lots do poo poo the assistance academy clubs get and they are not missing the point at all. You guys are just choosing to ignore the point some of us are trying to make:

The academies need to be run by the afl and all players in Australia who put their name up for draft should be equally available to all clubs in Australia.

Have a read of this kid* from the Pilbara now strutting his stuff at AFL level, not picked up straight out of school, could be finishing his apprenticeship in Dampier** - these are the kids that academies in the developing States will keep in the game, its well & good that in footy heartland he made it to the WAFL, reserves then league, a bit of guidance from the indigenous Commissioner on the WAFC in Larry Kickett.

*http://www.gwsgiants.com.au/news/2018-01-09/persistence-pays-off-for-langdon
** Dampier is 1500+ kms north of Perth

He went straight into the pool, heartland states should have no priority.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Because they spent all the money it would take on setting up and supporting the Northern clubs.

Not too mention that it is impossible.

Yes, I was being arch, with my intention being to point out how a lot of people use the capacity argument like it's the clincher. it's not.

There are many issues, and capacity is one of them, but when people make out that it's only about capacity, I throw it back at them.

 

[HPKS]

I'd question the ability of the AFL to be involved, its Melbourne centric, how could it deal with the Pilbara in the North West, it has no credibility in Tas & its on the doorstep.
The Melbourne clubs want the talent, they're not interested in growing the talent pool.

If Sydney & QBE didnt kick academys off, they wouldnt exist.

I lived in Melbourne for a while n came to realise very quickly for the majority of supporters, and administrators/media people, there that they were illiterate when it came to anything involving Australian rules outside of the Melbourne.

 

[____]

I lived in Melbourne for a while n came to realise very quickly for the majority of supporters, and administrators/media people, there that they were illiterate when it came to anything involving Australian rules outside of the Melbourne.

Very very true, in no other sport on the planet does anyone claim that an academy is an unfair advantage to any team or has ridiculous debates about clash kits.

Another example of Victorian cluelessness about anything outside Victoria is the fact many believe Gold Coast should move to Tassie. While Tasmania deserve a team anyone who has actually been there (and I'm not talking about surfers as no GC local actually goes there) would realise why there is an AFL team there and it would be madness to get rid of them. The crowds they got early 2014 showed the AFL made the right call to put a team there

 

[HPKS]

Very very true, in no other sport on the planet does anyone claim that an academy is an unfair advantage to any team or has ridiculous debates about clash kits.

Another example of Victorian cluelessness about anything outside Victoria is the fact many believe Gold Coast should move to Tassie. While Tasmania deserve a team anyone who has actually been there (and I'm not talking about surfers as no GC local actually goes there) would realise why there is an AFL team there and it would be madness to get rid of them. The crowds they got early 2014 showed the AFL made the right call to put a team there

I’ve spent a lot of time on GC during my life n I’ve got no doubt a side will work there.

Christ if a big supported side like Collingwood had the results that the suns have had over their nine years crowds would be dismal to.

And yes the clueless lot think everyone in the Gold Coast lives in surfers n are at night clubs every bloody night. It’s actually a very active sporting community.

And as for tassie, I was born there, a side would work it’s just that the locals have given up trying. Theyve been told come watch games n it’ll show that you deserve a side then Gill says straight out they need to have a budget of 45 mill even though some clubs don’t have that either. No wonder they’re turning their back on AFL games there.

Atleast come out n say the truth “you probably could run a financially successful side but you don’t make us enough much money so you’ll always be next in line”

The whole clash kit debate is laughable. It’s only an issue for one reason n that’s it’s still a pseudo national competition n that the Victorian clubs still have the issue of “you joined our competition so you change”. Look at Bartlett last year for the perfect example.

 

[____]

I’ve spent a lot of time on GC during my life n I’ve got no doubt a side will work there.

Christ if a big supported side like Collingwood had the results that the suns have had over their nine years crowds would be dismal to.

And yes the clueless lot think everyone in the Gold Coast lives in surfers n are at night clubs every bloody night. It’s actually a very active sporting community.

And as for tassie, I was born there, a side would work it’s just that the locals have given up trying. Theyve been told come watch games n it’ll show that you deserve a side then Gill says straight out they need to have a budget of 45 mill even though some clubs don’t have that either. No wonder they’re turning their back on AFL games there.

Atleast come out n say the truth “you probably could run a financially successful side but you don’t make us enough much money so you’ll always be next in line”

The whole clash kit debate is laughable. It’s only an issue for one reason n that’s it’s still a pseudo national competition n that the Victorian clubs still have the issue of “you joined our competition so you change”. Look at Bartlett last year for the perfect example.

Tassie would definitely work, but the AFL needs to get rid of the draft first. If there is a draft a lot of drafted players will get "homesick", get rid of the draft, give them a full academy and tell the Tassie kids they can play for Tasmania in the AFL. Problem solved.

As for GC two things, firstly as a lot of people there move from NSW, Vic, SA, Tas and NZ a lot of people follow AFL and NRL teams (see aussie rules and rugby league fields everywhere), obviously they won't change teams if they move there, it is about getting the kids to become Suns and Titans fans. Hence why the Suns wear bright red and Titans wear bright blue. Secondly when I lived there I would go to Coolangatta or across the border when I wanted to go to the beach, or the spit if it was after work (used to live in Southport and Oxenford). Traffic from Oxenford to the Spit was a nightmare though

 

[HPKS]

Very very true, in no other sport on the planet does anyone claim that an academy is an unfair advantage to any team or has ridiculous debates about clash kits.

And of course you get a lot of Victorian supporters not wanting academies, especially older ones. They remember the days of Brisbane and Sydney losing players to Victoria regularly. They want that back and that’s why they don’t want academies full stop because they know once you get enough players coming through the northern academies that then players will have no interest in moving to Melbourne.

It’s why not one of them replied to the alternative systems that were put up. They don’t want them full stop they want the old way back. The days of Doolan, Rocca, Gasper, Buckley, Grant etc leaving for big Melbourne clubs and they also get the weakening of the northern clubs because they’ll have to pay more to entice players their club. Blind Freddy can see it.

 

[HPKS]

Tassie would definitely work, but the AFL needs to get rid of the draft first. If there is a draft a lot of drafted players will get "homesick", get rid of the draft, give them a full academy and tell the Tassie kids they can play for Tasmania in the AFL. Problem solved.

As for GC two things, firstly as a lot of people there move from NSW, Vic, SA, Tas and NZ a lot of people follow AFL and NRL teams (see aussie rules and rugby league fields everywhere), obviously they won't change teams if they move there, it is about getting the kids to become Suns and Titans fans. Hence why the Suns wear bright red and Titans wear bright blue. Secondly when I lived there I would go to Coolangatta or across the border when I wanted to go to the beach, or the spit if it was after work (used to live in Southport and Oxenford). Traffic from Oxenford to the Spit was a nightmare though

The killer by not having a draft is the stock pilling of talent. It happened regularly in the zoning days. Plus Costs go up. With no draft if for example Thomas was not put onto the kangaroos list a club would want him n the only way it works is with transfer fees.

I agree that people won’t change sides in a hurry. But if a side is reasonable on the field they’ll go watch as their second side. As the years go by it’s possible they’ll change and most likely their children will follow to.

 

[____]

The killer by not having a draft is the stock pilling of talent. It happened regularly in the zoning days. Plus Costs go up. With no draft if for example Thomas was not put onto the kangaroos list a club would want him n the only way it works is with transfer fees.

I agree that people won’t change sides in a hurry. But if a side is reasonable on the field they’ll go watch as their second side. As the years go by it’s possible they’ll change and most likely their children will follow to.

As long as their is a properly enforced salary cap, stockpiling of talent won't happen. Broncos are easily the biggest club in the NRL and even the Bronx don't have a monopoly on all the Brisbane junior talent let alone all the talent

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

As long as their is a properly enforced salary cap, stockpiling of talent won't happen. Broncos are easily the biggest club in the NRL and even the Bronx don't have a monopoly on all the Brisbane junior talent let alone all the talent

It is as you say. If you new need evidence look at our trading over the last few years. A pretty successful player retention effort with an expanded cap and list forced us to trade out numerous players now playing AFL for othe clubs.
It's a wierd feeling coming up against guys like Devon Smith while we play DFA's from other clubs. Not saying it's unfair it was always the plan, but it's wierd. When someone like Smith does well or Ahern debuts for North I honestly wish them well. I'd hate to think being drafted by us damaged their careers or limited their opportunities. But it also hurts.

 

[sherb]

McVeigh absolutely did start out at Killarney Vale. As both the boys showed talent they took them down to Pennant Hills to play.

McVeigh then played for Pennant Hills and then the Sydney Under 16s, who were an early concept of academies in some form, who played in the under 18 Sydney competition.

I played for the Newcastle/Central Coast Hunter u18 in the Sydney competition who were a similar, albeit older, northern concept of the Sydney under 16 side.

I also played most of my juniors at the Wyong-Lakes Magpies of whom Killarney Vale was our biggest rival.

I didn't know that!

 

[Hoops]

What part of Sydney is Killarney Vale from? You are incapable of discussing this without bullshitting.

Central Coast

 

[sherb]

These argument about how the Grand Final should move around for "equality" are just rididiculous - there are no stadia capable of hosting outside of Melbourne apart from maybe Sydney, but they are knocking those down anyway.

The point is if you are going to argue "equality", then argue it across the board - not just within the confines of your personal preferences and/or biases. At the moment we get people going "wah, wah, wah, unfair", but only about certain things.

Re the GF for instance, you will never have a fair competition while the Grand Final is hosted in Melbourne each year - giving some clubs get the opportunity to play it on their home ground (and many others in their home state) which other clubs don't get. Or where clubs come into the GF with much more experience at the venue that season than their opponent (eg 2014 - leading into the GF Hawthorn had played 13 games on the MCG compared to the Swans' 3).

And yet when this gets pointed out, we get responses like yours above, arguing why it can't happen instead of the opposite. Of course you could hold GFs outside of Melbourne, it's just that the AFL isn't prepared to forego revenue, etc for "fairness".

So either you want a fair competition or you don't. Or, you can be practical about it all, and accept that some things are in place for reasons other than fairness - eg for the good of the competition, tradition, money, the growth of the game, etc - and hope that in time they can be better fine tuned.

Anyway, off topic.......but it was brought up here.

 

[HPKS]

As long as their is a properly enforced salary cap, stockpiling of talent won't happen. Broncos are easily the biggest club in the NRL and even the Bronx don't have a monopoly on all the Brisbane junior talent let alone all the talent

I’m not against what your saying its just that I have massive misgivings about how it would be manipulated.

But atleast it’s an idea put forward n not the old tired “let the afl run it”

 

[HPKS]

The point is if you are going to argue "equality", then argue it across the board - not just within the confines of your personal preferences and/or biases. At the moment we get people going "wah, wah, wah, unfair", but only about certain things.

Re the GF for instance, you will never have a completely fair competition while the Grand Final is hosted in Melbourne each year - giving some clubs get the opportunity to play it on their home ground (and many others in their home state) which other clubs don't get. Or where clubs come into the GF with much more experience at the venue that season than their opponent (eg 2014 - leading into the GF Hawthorn had played 13 games on the MCG compared to the Swans' 3).

And yet when this gets pointed out, we get responses like yours above, arguing why it can't happen instead of the opposite. Of course you could hold GFs outside of Melbourne, it's just that the AFL isn't prepared to forego revenue, etc for "fairness".

So either you want a fair competition or you don't. Or, you can be practical about it all, and accept that some things are in place for reasons other than fairness, eg for the good of the competition, tradition, money, the growth of the game, etc and hope that in time they can be better fine tuned.

Anyway, off topic.......but it was brought up here.

Yeh but don’t forget the chartered flights n a few extra training runs at the ground. That’d have to even it up fairly bwahaha said no1 ever.