The Judd Rule.

[Silvagnis]

It's laughable that people think the salary cap and the lopsided AFL draw *cough* Colligwood will create a level playing field. There's nothing stopping clubs from spending more on coaches and facilites to be the best club. I wonder if Eddie complained about a level playing field during the period he used The Footy Show to promote a football club that was broke and a wooden spooner. Strange that the Pies rebuilt quickly and attracted sponsors with Eddie spruiking Collingwood every week. That was a facility that Carlton didn't have to promote our once struggling brand on national television.

 

[DTShowtime]

Apparently Cotton On went to the AFL last year & proposed a $200 K plus contract for Ablett staying at Geelong (outside his normal contract). As far as I'm aware, there are no board of directors at Geelong from that company.

That is a direct contradiction of the Judd deal.

 

[blue healer]

You could even take it a step past that and say that it wasn't Visy who paid for that deal, it was the owner of Visy, Dick Pratt. Since he was the president of Carlton and it was in his direct interests to have Judd at the team, it must be considered a payment by Carton outside of the salary cap. Anyone who can't see that is in serious denial.

It's equivalent to arguing that a husband who promotes his secretary wife and doubles her salary immediately after marrying her was doing so in the capacity of being her boss and her job performance, and not because of his personal relationship with her. Sure, they make up stories about how it transpired, but it just isn't credible.

Visy has continued to honour the deal because it remains in the Pratt family and Jeannie Pratt is almost as much of a Carlton nut as her late husband was. If Visy were a separate company with no ties to Carlton, does anybody seriously think they would need a contract with Chris Judd? Visy is an industrial company that markets products to the wholesale market, not to the general public. They don't sell more products because Chris Judd is an ambassador for the company. Nor do they give a flying *&(^ about the environment. It's all hot air designed to get and keep Judd at Carlton. Other clubs have every right to be angry about Judd being an exception to the rule. The Judd-Visy should be canceled if we are interested in fairness across the board. Unfortunately we aren't. That's why we have situations like new clubs raping drafts and offering equally dodgy player contracts and disproportionate salary caps. The AFL is run like a corporation and not a sporting league. That's why we can't really expect it to be run fairly.

This is bullshit. In another life I dealt with Visy and know many of it's reps. Their commitment to the environment (through recycling alone) goes back 30 years. They don't waste a scrap of paper or a splinter of wood.

FFS, Pratt was prepared to put up a swag of his own money to build a water pipeline from Northern Aus into the Murray/ Darling.

Whether Judd does enough to earn his payment is another thing and only Visy
can judge that.

As for those who say that the only reason he went to Carlton was because of that deal and it was only made because Pratt was president, does anyone seriously believe that Eddie (as channel 9 supremo) wouldn't have, at least, matched it. Shit Judd would be the host of the FS if the deal could have been done.

I happen to think, perhaps naively, that the reason he elected Carlton was because he knew what their bottom line trade deal would be and that West Coast wouldn't be screwed.

 

[Brasher]

Pretty safe to say that there is not even an intent to create a level playing field.

The salary cap is in place not to share the talent but to enforce financial prudence on the clubs and curb player payments.

The AFL "exploits" Collingwood's popularity not through any lobbying from the Pies themselves but because they are the league's cash cow and maximising revenues and related KPIs (crowd figures, TV ratings) takes precedent over an equitable draw.

Nearly every new rule or policy brought in by this administration has shown to have serious flaws in it that once highlighted instead of revamping the rule the league choses to exercise their self appointed discretion to rectify (3rd party payments, father/son, final formats, priority picks, rule interpretations etc etc).

But the clubs are to blame too. I still for the life of me can not understand why we will have a team in GWS next year.

 

[Thommo 42]

I don't agree he went there just due to the deal either, he had respect for WCE and wanted to see them compensated, Carlton were always going to offer a better trade deal. The $200k kicker certainly wouldn't have hurt though, and should never have been allowed.

History shows Pies opted not to sell the farm to get him, and won a flag with the players that would have been required to get the deal done, mostly playing starring roles - so it was a good decision.

 

[Jade]

I have absolutely no love for Carlton, but you can't blame them for this. I would expect them to do everything in their power and within the rules to attract and maintain Judd.

If the same deal was to be signed tomorrow, I would say absolutely not - it should not be allowed.

But right or wrong, it's done.

So the fact that Judd has it, doesn't mean anyone else should get it.

And Judd should also not be allowed to re-sign the same deal again.

 

[ziad]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/clubs-fume-over-the-judd-rule/story-e6frf9jf-1226094925825





I wonder if this Judd deal would have been ticked off if Mike Fitzpatrick wasn't on the AFL Commission.

Most have no doubt at all - it is a home ground decision.

 

[Jade]

I don't agree he went there just due to the deal either, he had respect for WCE and wanted to see them compensated, Carlton were always going to offer a better trade deal. The $200k kicker certainly wouldn't have hurt though, and should never have been allowed.

History shows Pies opted not to sell the farm to get him, and won a flag with the players that would have been required to get the deal done, mostly playing starring roles - so it was a good decision.

I do disagree with this however.

Supposedly (and I can't be bothered finding a link) Richmond were prepared to offer it's number two pick to attract Judd - however Judd refused to go to Richmond, thus forcing WC to deal with Carlton.

 

[blue healer]

I don't agree he went there just due to the deal either, he had respect for WCE and wanted to see them compensated, Carlton were always going to offer a better trade deal. The $200k kicker certainly wouldn't have hurt though, and should never have been allowed.

History shows Pies opted not to sell the farm to get him, and won a flag with the players that would have been required to get the deal done, mostly playing starring roles - so it was a good decision.

Not so sure that they opted out and am more inclined to think that they lost out. If they had got him the premiership may have come a couple of years earlier.

I don't care much whether the deal should or should not have been allowed the fact is it was fully disclosed and agreed to by the AFL and I think there are still a lot of private deals out there that will never see the light of day, unless there are more O'Rielly's around.

 

[blue healer]

I do disagree with this however.

Supposedly (and I can't be bothered finding a link) Richmond were prepared to offer it's number two pick to attract Judd - however Judd refused to go to Richmond, thus forcing WC to deal with Carlton.

Carlton offered number three pick and and a 20yo top 5 KPF so why would WC feel forced to deal with Carlton when it was the best deal?

 

[Jade]

Carlton offered number three pick and and a 20yo top 5 KPF so why would WC feel forced to deal with Carlton when it was the best deal?

From memory (so I could be wrong) word was pick 2, 18 and a choice of any Tiger bar an 'off limits' list.

 

[Ando727]

This is bullshit. In another life I dealt with Visy and know many of it's reps. Their commitment to the environment (through recycling alone) goes back 30 years. They don't waste a scrap of paper or a splinter of wood.

Ok, I should have spelled it out more precisely. Visy didn't feel passionately enough to employ an expensive, high-profile figure like Chris Judd to promote their recycling efforts right up until that magical day when Carlton/Pratt were trying to lure Judd to Carlton. You don't think that reeks of inauthenticity? By the way, recycled pulp has generally been cheaper than new raw pulp/wood-chips, apart from some select occasions when the wood-chip industry was undercutting them (that didn't last for 30 years though). Even if there are employees at Visy who feel strongly about recycling, that shouldn't be confused with Visy being a morally upstanding company. So they care about the environment, but they don't mind setting up a price-fixing cartel to boost prices in the paper industry? You'll forgive me if I'm skeptical about the values of Visy.

Whether Judd does enough to earn his payment is another thing and only Visy
can judge that.

Of course he doesn't earn it, they didn't even think they needed anyone for that job until Carlton wanted to lure him.

As for those who say that the only reason he went to Carlton was because of that deal and it was only made because Pratt was president, does anyone seriously believe that Eddie (as channel 9 supremo) wouldn't have, at least, matched it. Shit Judd would be the host of the FS if the deal could have been done.

You're probably right there, but that goes to show that football clubs are prepared to create dodgy jobs/appointments to operate outside the salary cap. You're basically admitting how dodgy the Judd job is there.

I happen to think, perhaps naively, that the reason he elected Carlton was because he knew what their bottom line trade deal would be and that West Coast wouldn't be screwed.

Not naively, just conveniently.

 

[legend166]

Just wait until free agency comes in. This will only get worse.

 

[jonbe54]

The AFL are concerned with "growing the brand" from a corporate viewpoint.

IMHO that means.

1. New franchises MUST be successful, nothing must stand in the way of the appearance of competence in the AFL's operations in this regard - in their opinion.
2. Big names are treated differently to small names and this goes for teams as well as individuals. Big names draw the crowds but more importantly the viewers, and despite what us loyal barrackers say about being in the outer to support your club its becoming increasingly ALL ABOUT the television audience.

All the rest is small potatoes at AFL house.

This is why the Visy deal was allowed - big name to a big club.
This is why Pies get the draw they do - huge crowds fdespite Television audience.

It's an ongoing process as the sport goes national, Collingwood got screwed with the Brissy expansion and now its the turn of Melbourne and others.

No its not fair but the AFL is about Profit and Profile and little else now.

 

[blue healer]

Ok, I should have spelled it out more precisely. Visy didn't feel passionately enough to employ an expensive, high-profile figure like Chris Judd to promote their recycling efforts right up until that magical day when Carlton/Pratt were trying to lure Judd to Carlton. You don't think that reeks of inauthenticity? By the way, recycled pulp has generally been cheaper than new raw pulp/wood-chips, apart from some select occasions when the wood-chip industry was undercutting them (that didn't last for 30 years though). Even if there are employees at Visy who feel strongly about recycling, that shouldn't be confused with Visy being a morally upstanding company. So they care about the environment, but they don't mind setting up a price-fixing cartel to boost prices in the paper industry? You'll forgive me if I'm skeptical about the values of Visy.



Of course he doesn't earn it, they didn't even think they needed anyone for that job until Carlton wanted to lure him.



You're probably right there, but that goes to show that football clubs are prepared to create dodgy jobs/appointments to operate outside the salary cap. You're basically admitting how dodgy the Judd job is there.



Not naively, just conveniently.

No great surprise that the price fixing thing came up but what's conveniently forgotten on BF is that there were 2 companies involved in that and the first investigated was a whistleblower. I don't condone it but it takes 2 to tango.

Not too sure about the economics of recycling but I do know that it reduces the timber content in cardboard which I would have thought was more environmentally responsible. I'm also pretty sure that the processing costs are higher.

How can it be a dodgy deal when it was approved in all respects by the governing body. Who amongst us would stake their life on the belief that dodgy deals are not being done now?

 

[Seadog]

lol this thread is pathetic

Judds contract with Visy was approved by the AFL and still fits the criterea under the new afl rules that all clubs have to abide to

Other players are more than welcome to try and attract media contracts from other sponsors, as they are currently doing

the obsession from Collingwood continues....

You are wrong. He can continue to be paid outside the cap because he signed the contract before the criteria was changed. Anderson intimated yesterday that the Judd deal wouldn't be allowed under the new rules.
The fact is the rules are a moving feast and are changed or bent to whatever suits the AFL at the time.
There is no doubt they wanted to get the biggest star in the game away from a club in disgrace and have him running around in Melbourne evrey week.
They had come to realise their salary cap penalties had nearly knocked over one of the big Melbourne clubs and saw this as a way of propping them up.
114 players earn around 2 million outside the cap so Judd is getting at least 10% of all monies paid outside the cap.
Carlton supporters trying to pretend everyone elses deals are the same doesn't cut it.

 

[Starburns_]

Funny how this quote was tucked away near the arse-end of the article where no-one would bother to look (and seemingly hasn't).

The league last year admitted 114 players were paid more than $2 million outside the league salary cap by club associates in 2009.

Last I looked, there weren't 114 Chris Judds in the league.

Yet apparently Judd and VISY is the only 3rd party deal in the comp.

Removing Judd's 3rd party payment from that and the average is roughly $16,000 per player outside the cap. Also It's been well documented that no other 3rd party deal is remotely close to 6 figures, let alone Judd's which exceeds that. The reason everyone talks about Judd's Visy deal is because it really is an outlier, there is no reasonable comparison to it.

Edit: looks like many others have beat me to it

 

[Poseidon]

So is the problem that 3rd party deals exist or that Judd's is so big?

 

[melbournemartin]

Who's to say that Melbourne, or Collingwood, or any other Victorian-based club wouldn't have or couldn't have gotten him a similar deal with one of their sponsors?

What was Melbourne going to give him? Free tires and anti-virus software?

 

[Monkey King]

"The league last year admitted 114 players were paid more than $2 million outside the league salary cap by club associates."

LMAO - The Judd Rule

 

[Monkey King]

Removing Judd's 3rd party payment from that and the average is roughly $16,000 per player outside the cap. Also It's been well documented that no other 3rd party deal is remotely close to 6 figures, let alone Judd's which exceeds that. The reason everyone talks about Judd's Visy deal is because it really is an outlier, there is no reasonable comparison to it.

So funny though that no one knows the actual figure. This is based on purely imaginary financials.

 

[liz]

So is the problem that 3rd party deals exist or that Judd's is so big?

A bit of both.

It would be nice if none existed that were circumventions of the salary cap, but the size of Judd's does make it different.

 

[melbournemartin]

So is the problem that third-party deals exist or that Judd's is so big?

And the fact that the AFL has changed its rules because it wants Tom Scully to go to GWS.

From all reports, Judd does **** all to get 200k from Visy. It's blatant salary cap cheating but Judd is the AFL golden boy so it's acceptable. This sounds like an odd argument but if Carlton is allowed to cheat then Melbourne should too. I don't like that we'd have to resort to third-party payments to keep Scully here but he's worth it, as is Judd.

A lot of people are talking about how Judd's contract with Visy somehow is still acceptable within the new, tightened AFL guidelines. Yet, according to this article, it says that ANY third-party deals for Tom Scully would not be allowed outside the salary cap.

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/7415/newsid/118464/default.aspx

So, Carlton supporters or anyone, can you please convince me how Judd has a legitimate contract at Visy, even under the tightened conditions, but Melbourne cannot obtain ANY third-party deal?

 

[Monkey King]

Judd refused to go to Richmond, thus forcing WC to deal with Carlton.

Of course he did. He already nominated the 4 clubshe was interested ina nd Richmond were not one of them. He had no desire whatsoever to go to there. Why should he be forced to sell his entire career and chance of future success down the drain, just so his old club can upgrade one pick in one draft? Makes no sense at all.

 

[Damon_3388]

this is laughable!

You think CLUBS should be able to have carte blanch to get around the salary cap by organising deals with companies?

Why have the ****ing salary cap then?

How dumb do you have to be not to understand the implications surrounding that?

Damon, do you understand why we have a salary cap?

Yes I do understand, but obviously the clubs don't care anyway, which is why there are 114 different players who are on similar deals to Judd. Whether they're getting as much out of it as Judd is neither here nor there IMO, as the point is that plenty of players are seemingly getting money outside the salary cap already. Not saying it's right (as I said earlier, the money can easily get out of control and set dangerous precedents going forward), but Judd is hardly flying solo here.

What was Melbourne going to give him? Free tires and anti-virus software?

Maybe a cushy "sales rep" kind of job, where he does little more than appear in ads or act as a "face" for the company.