The kk Vs All In Dilemma

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woomera_skp said:
Nah he was under the gun he flat call for $3 i raised to $21 he re-raised to $55,I re-raised to $115 and he shoved all $2k on me,He is a very good player and only tries to trap people with good card,i folded because i figured once he established i have a good card kk or qq or maybe JJ he wanted all the value meaning my stack in pre-flop,he had me covered.

He didn't show his cards but the guy next to him saw it and when i went for a smoko he happened to be there and told me he showed him AA and was convinced i would call because he did put me on high pockets and i showed my kk when i folded it while telling him he had AA but he decided to fold not showing me at that time.
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the ol' limp re-raise utg.

i'm curious, was it this guy?



i know he likes to do that a lot.
 
ashley12 said:
+1



+1



+11 though I can't remember b) ever happening to me. However, it has happened the other way, where someone I knew was supernitty raised, they knew I knew they were supernitty, and I 3bet anyway trying to fold out QQ and less with I think 55. Didnt work, they called, flop came broadway and they donk shoved.

People saying that KK preflop is the hardest decision is dumb. I can't speak for everyone, but if they are playing something like 14/11 or so that I would guess would be my rough numbers, having KK when you get action is great.

If you are scared that "oh noes, can't pay my bills if they take my stack" then not clever for being such scared money.

Incidently, twice in the last few months I have elected to flat with KK, once to a 3bet and once to a 4bet vs people I believe could play well vs another raise (i.e, they would get the monies in with AA, and fold almost everything else, so that when I call they can still make mistakes with TT and AQ etc...) Both times the board came down Axx and I ended up not putting in another dime, once vs a set of 8's (history with him which is why he 3bet in the first place) and the other showed QJo (The night I played the sick 42o hand, not the guy I put the beat on though).

A much harder decision vs an AI is having something like JJ or AQ imo...

*As a footnote, I expect this thread to go down something like this

- Person asks should I lay down KK in this spot
- A bunch of pretty intelligent posters say no because of X reasons
- Person says BUT THEY COULD HAVE TEH AA DUDE!!!
- People reaffirm that due to think in ranges, logically and a bunch of other reasons that mean this is a call, and if they have AA, so be it
- Person says ranges are for teh fish dat yous de internetz yall...

In fact, it reminds me of a thread on another forum where someone has QQ and faces a big shove. He didnt want to call because in his own words, the villian was crazy and could have anything. Since QQ had about 72% equity at a guess vs a random hand, we should be sticking it in here all the time, but he couldnt get his head around ranges and that a loose villian like described 55 is enough let alone QQ, and that a tight player makes the decision harder.
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I don't know how often you play live games but when everyone at the table gets a big stack behind them at least 15x maximum buy in everyone change strategy and try to trap,If i have AA utg no way in hell i would raise with many big stacks after me,i would rather try to go 1on1 than raise to $70 or something and have 5 callers after me,If i have a short stack sh*t yeah i would raise and hope for the best,with big stack and players having big stack after you not only you giving 3 players to get a chance to bluff you but your % is worst having to go at 3-4 players.

AA in a rich table is best for heads up or maybe 3 way with alot of $$$ in the pot pre flop,when im under the gun with big stakes i always blind raise to hide what cards i could have,that way if i do get AA or AK and someone else raised i could somehow try to trap him,ITS NOT ABOUT SCARED MONEY its about reading what other people have,i wouldn't care if i lose $2k i lost a straight flush with an ace high flush for a $5k stack (AKc VS 8,10c Flop is 7c,9c,10d turn is Jc)few months ago and was shocked but got over it the next hand.
 
checkraiseulite said:
Suppose you had QQ, you knew the other player had AK, and it was a '$2k call' playing 2/5? Would you still make it?

I also find it hard to believe that there are people playing 2/5 at crown 3-4b shoving 400bb deep with AK.

Flat-calling with AA-KK pre-flop in non-deep situations is very under-rated in the live-games, especially against people with ~95% cbet frequencies.

Easy way to get paid.
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I don't know when you play $2/5 but try some saturday morning like 3am or sunday morning 3 am sometimes and you will see it,How about everyone on the table all in with an average $1k stack x 9 players??????there is few players who are a big baccarat players and treat $2/5 table like bingo,i have seen up and down draw called with $2k on the turn let alone shoving pre flop with that amount,all you need is 2 baccarat players + 2 $5/$10 players waiting for a $5/$10 tables to get organised + 2 players with big stacks who have been there for 12 hours building there $2k-$3k stacks + one big time gambler + one shark and watch the crazyness.


I wouldn't call with QQ because kk and AA can be trouble for me that's 2 hands im worried about instead of one,Forget about AK in that situation you are hoping he has AK and trying to convince yourself you have to be realistic in those situations not only you have to guess right by being in the front you have to dodge A and K as well,although its a 52% in your favour ITS not a $2K call unless you are a gambler.
 

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grrofunger said:
lost last night on cash table at burswood with an all in pre flop KK

im in mid position

2/3 table which for those who dont know is a ridiculous $100 flat buy in

donkey me was down to $63

UTG raises to $10

i reraise to $30

button pushes all in with about $110

UTG calls he had about $70

i call for my remaining

3 way pot

Button turns over QQ

UTG turns over AQ spades

i turn over KK

flop rag Ace rag

rag
rag

GG

bye

such is life

was my second buy in after i donked off the first $100 with AK and then AQ - aces wouldnt come for me

lost to 44 and 55

live poker is so rigged :p

was also knocked out of burswoods tourney last night - 200 runners - 120 something - worst result by far - ran bad

RIGGED ! :p
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That's Unlucky...Keep your head up you just got the small end of % loss.
 
woomera_skp said:
Nah he was under the gun he flat call for $3 i raised to $21 he re-raised to $55,I re-raised to $115 and he shoved all $2k on me,He is a very good player and only tries to trap people with good card,i folded because i figured once he established i have a good card kk or qq or maybe JJ he wanted all the value meaning my stack in pre-flop,he had me covered.

He didn't show his cards but the guy next to him saw it and when i went for a smoko he happened to be there and told me he showed him AA and was convinced i would call because he did put me on high pockets and i showed my kk when i folded it while telling him he had AA but he decided to fold not showing me at that time.
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wait which is it?

woomera_skp said:
I folded kk against all in raise for all my stack and when i folded He had A,K and two hands later same scenario occurred and he pushed me all in and i also folded But this time he had AA,
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FishCreekBandit said:
You are clearly playing with scared money which makes you a perfect player to player against.


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.029% 32.32% 01.71% 109565076 5805990.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 65.971% 64.26% 01.71% 217859136 5805990.00 { KK }


Knowing live 2/5 play the range is probably even wider then 1010+ AK, basically you are throwing away money by folding.
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You can't play % all the time...you have to trust your instinct,if you can't lay down kk pre flop then you are the perfect candidate for easy money.
 
Lurk3r said:
Depends on the opponent. If they are unknown and its more than 3 or 4 bet I would fold.

If i know they are some n00b fish I won't. If i know they are some rock, or someone who NEVER raises preflop I will fold.
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Exactly my point..If the player plays like 5 or 6 hands an hour and only raise with solid cards what do you think he has if he shoves all in for $2k.
 
ashley12 said:
*As a footnote, I expect this thread to go down something like this

- Person asks should I lay down KK in this spot
- A bunch of pretty intelligent posters say no because of X reasons
- Person says BUT THEY COULD HAVE TEH AA DUDE!!!
- People reaffirm that due to think in ranges, logically and a bunch of other reasons that mean this is a call, and if they have AA, so be it
- Person says ranges are for teh fish dat yous de internetz yall...

In fact, it reminds me of a thread on another forum where someone has QQ and faces a big shove. He didnt want to call because in his own words, the villian was crazy and could have anything. Since QQ had about 72% equity at a guess vs a random hand, we should be sticking it in here all the time, but he couldnt get his head around ranges and that a loose villian like described 55 is enough let alone QQ, and that a tight player makes the decision harder.
Click to expand...

You should watch this video

[YOUTUBE]tnoGXf4WyfU[/YOUTUBE]
 
woomera_skp said:
I don't know when you play $2/5 but try some saturday morning like 3am or sunday morning 3 am sometimes and you will see it,How about everyone on the table all in with an average $1k stack x 9 players??????there is few players who are a big baccarat players and treat $2/5 table like bingo,i have seen up and down draw called with $2k on the turn let alone shoving pre flop with that amount,all you need is 2 baccarat players + 2 $5/$10 players waiting for a $5/$10 tables to get organised + 2 players with big stacks who have been there for 12 hours building there $2k-$3k stacks + one big time gambler + one shark and watch the crazyness.


I wouldn't call with QQ because kk and AA can be trouble for me that's 2 hands im worried about instead of one,Forget about AK in that situation you are hoping he has AK and trying to convince yourself you have to be realistic in those situations not only you have to guess right by being in the front you have to dodge A and K as well,although its a 52% in your favour ITS not a $2K call unless you are a gambler.
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shoving 2k on the turn and 3-4b shoving AK preflop 2k eff are two very different things.

i've played a lot of 2/5 in the last 2 years. a lot of the whole big gamble gamble aura surrounding the gane at crown is myth, especially preflop. i don't care whether it's 4am on a saturday night or 10:30am on a tuesday morning, people don't 4b shove pre holding AK with $2k effective stacks.
 
woomera_skp said:
You can't play % all the time...you have to trust your instinct,if you can't lay down kk pre flop then you are the perfect candidate for easy money.
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Sure and then would make you change your ranges to reflect what hands are in his range but what would i know right? Not like I do it for a living.

Im guessing you are not playing with a bankroll, or even a winning player from what you have said
 

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checkraiseulite said:
shoving 2k on the turn and 3-4b shoving AK preflop 2k eff are two very different things.

i've played a lot of 2/5 in the last 2 years. a lot of the whole big gamble gamble aura surrounding the gane at crown is myth, especially preflop. i don't care whether it's 4am on a saturday night or 10:30am on a tuesday morning, people don't 4b shove pre holding AK with $2k effective stacks.
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How is That so???shoving $2k on the turn for 16% is worst than shoving pre-flop with only few hands that you would be behind to begin with.

If you played alot of $2/5 like you said you would know that alot of those players are a $5/10 players or $5/10/10 omaha pot limit players as well,some of those players are involved in a $30k pots in those tables and i've seen it with my own eyes do you think they will be scared to call or shove $2k on a 2/5 table???

Not long ago there was a guy who plays omaha who was doing the flips $500 blind raise (all his maximum buy in) and you could imagine how many people were calling and re-raising that,the reason you don't see it is because you can't get into the table when it happenes,nO one can as no one leaves the table until everyone does,the $2/5 tables is actually the highest table which is avaliable almost all the time at crown,I have friends who don't play at crown because the stake is way too low,and if they do play its like someone who plays $2/3 playing in a 5 cent/10 cent table with a $10 buy in.

you want to see what im talking about go to a $2/$5 table around 9pm on a saturday just before they open a pol limit omaha and $5/$10 table,not all but most of the time you will see it.I am not a big cash poker players Just few 100's of dollars here and there but no doubt in my mind that the $2/$5 every now and then bring few gamblers and rich players to bash each other.
 
woomera_skp when you go and play can you please PM me your table number it would be much appreciated.

No wonder Aussie Poker is still beatable with the disgusting rake
 
FishCreekBandit said:
woomera_skp when you go and play can you please PM me your table number it would be much appreciated.

No wonder Aussie Poker is still beatable with the disgusting rake
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I will Pm you next time i'm there and its out of control,since i got the Iphone4 now it shouldn't be any problem,beware though these players are really playing bingo when these parties starts.:thumbsu:
 
Lurk3r said:
You should watch this video

[youtube]tnoGXf4WyfU[/youtube]
Click to expand...


Good Freakin Video...Thanks buddy,He speaks the truth and seriously Anyone who plays live poker and more often than not build his stakes to a healthy range would benefit from few tips like those,the point of him saying your first decision is what will be your most important is true.Good lookout For the video Mate :thumbsu::thumbsu::thumbsu:
 
I'm pretty sure folding KK to a 4bet preflop isn't a massive mistake, even if their range is behind it.

Its all about your general strategy though, if you are 4 betting with anything then only calling with KK you will get hurt, but if you are only 4 betting with KK and AA folding KK isn't that bad.
 
FishCreekBandit said:
"Its a bingo"

Yet you will fold KK pre
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Calling KK all the time with a big stack is called "Hoping for the best" Not "Playing poker",If you can't let go of KK pre-flop sometimes then you are limiting your wining potentials.In today's poker terms you would be referred to as "Fish".
 
woomera_skp said:
In today's poker terms you would be referred to as "Fish".
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Ah! I was always wondering what "Fish" meant in today's poker terms. So am I right in understanding a "Fish" is someone who limits their winning potential? And why do they call them "Fish"?
 
woomera_skp said:
Calling KK all the time with a big stack is called "Hoping for the best" Not "Playing poker",If you can't let go of KK pre-flop sometimes then you are limiting your wining potentials.In today's poker terms you would be referred to as "Fish".
Click to expand...

Just admit you are playing with scared money and you fear losing
 
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