" The Last Dance "

[peternorth]

Comparison posts and discussion regarding Michael Jordan vs Lebron/Lebrone James are now contained here

Play Nice - Michael Jordan vs LeBron James

tbh it was a good education of how weak defences were in that era. If MJ is going to cut thru D's like that LeBron sure as hell will

www.bigfooty.com

WELCOME TO THE LAST DANCE

 

[Mazza1234678]

Doesnt get talked about much but Green is right about Steph's first contract being just as bad as Pippens

Draymond Green calls Steph Curry, Scottie Pippen's contracts worst ever

Steph Curry's first NBA contract with the Warriors was a bargain, but was it as bad as Scottie Pippen's deal with Chicago?

sports.yahoo.com

 

[NSWCROW]

 

[fidstar]

MJ's contract was worse than both of them.

Late 80s and early/mid 90s he was earning about $2.5M a year. He was probably worth $50M a year to the league during that time.

Even his 2 year, $2M contract with the Wiz was a bargain considering what he was actually worth to the team.

 

[Magus]

Anyone else feel a bit bad for Jerry?

 

[peternorth]

Anyone else feel a bit bad for Jerry?

I felt so a bit. What we saw was practically bullying.

 

[Boxhead007]

Anyone else feel a bit bad for Jerry?

Jerry made it about him. Continually put himself above the organisation. Respect is earned. The faux pas in what he said about organisations winning championships not players naturally put the players offside.
Jerry brought a lot of it on himself. Look at the way he treated Jackson

 

[Magus]

Jerry made it about him. Continually put himself above the organisation. Respect is earned. The faux pas in what he said about organisations winning championships not players naturally put the players offside.
Jerry brought a lot of it on himself. Look at the way he treated Jackson

Was he wrong though?

You can have a team stacked full of talent and still not be able to take it all the way and it was shown that he was misquoted.

I will concede that going into 98 and publicly stating that it was Jackson's last year was a very dumb move but I don't think Jerry deserved the constant bullying about his appearance and everything else. There's a way to handle prickly relationships and that ain't it.

 

[Boxhead007]

Was he wrong though?

You can have a team stacked full of talent and still not be able to take it all the way and it was shown that he was misquoted.

I will concede that going into 98 and publicly stating that it was Jackson's last year was a very dumb move but I don't think Jerry deserved the constant bullying about his appearance and everything else. There's a way to handle prickly relationships and that ain't it.

Was he really misquoted or was he saving arse?? We’ll never know for sure. He was happy to parade the earmarked heir to Jackson’s job in front of everyone. Not a professional move by someone who is demanding to be respected. He showed no respect to the players and or Jackson so you’d hardly expect the players to respect him back.
Not to mention being outward in saying that he was ready to sell off players after winning the championship in order to rebuild suggesting some had reached their peak.
Not condoning the way the players treated him but he didn’t exactly help his cause

 

[peternorth]

Or maybe the players started it, and jerry retorted. A bit of I know you are you said you are tit for tat. maybe

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

From the brief clips it looked like Jordan was bullying him. Certainly would be deemed that way on the workplace.

 

[QuietB]

Doesnt get talked about much but Green is right about Steph's first contract being just as bad as Pippens

Draymond Green calls Steph Curry, Scottie Pippen's contracts worst ever

Steph Curry's first NBA contract with the Warriors was a bargain, but was it as bad as Scottie Pippen's deal with Chicago?

sports.yahoo.com

I was going to raise this. Curry's contract won chips for the Warriors and Pippen's contract won chips for the Bulls.

If Pippen gets paid then Jordan and Pippen get broken up a lot earlier. It is that simple.

 

[QuietB]

Was he really misquoted or was he saving arse?? We’ll never know for sure. He was happy to parade the earmarked heir to Jackson’s job in front of everyone. Not a professional move by someone who is demanding to be respected. He showed no respect to the players and or Jackson so you’d hardly expect the players to respect him back.
Not to mention being outward in saying that he was ready to sell off players after winning the championship in order to rebuild suggesting some had reached their peak.
Not condoning the way the players treated him but he didn’t exactly help his cause

I read somewhere that part of the problem was he brought a baseball front office mentality (he came from the White Sox) to basketball.

In baseball players absolutely are commodities. And that did not translate to basketball well.

 

[peternorth]

At the end of the day no one saw everything that happened. Jerry may have asked for bullying to stop various times. We will never know

 

[Boxhead007]

Or maybe the players started it, and jerry retorted. A bit of I know you are you said you are tit for tat. maybe

Didn’t it start after the infamous “ organisations win championships not players” ? My understanding from reading one of Phil Jackson’s books that was the tipping point.

 

[peternorth]

Didn’t it start after the infamous “ organisations win championships not players” ? My understanding from reading one of Phil Jackson’s books that was the tipping point.

Yes it appears so. I just think we havent seen/heard everything that culminated in behaviours shown on the doco.

 

[Boxhead007]

Yes it appears so. I just think we havent seen/heard everything that culminated in behaviours shown on the doco.

Probably not. Clear players didn’t respect him but to be honest the way he behaved it didn’t really garner any respect. Even Reinsdorf admitted Jerry gets on the wrong side of people.

 

[peternorth]

Probably not. Clear players didn’t respect him but to be honest the way he behaved it didn’t really garner any respect. Even Reinsdorf admitted Jerry gets on the wrong side of people.

absolutely. part of me feels that krause was jordan like in the business of sport world. and jordan was jordan. Alpha dawgz. Anyway, he wasnt well liked. Almost hated even, hated as much as Primetime Pricey hates jordan

 

[QuietB]

At the end of the day no one saw everything that happened. Jerry may have asked for bullying to stop various times. We will never know

We do know Jordan would not have given two shits who he pissed off

 

[FreoRicci]

Worth the wait. Goosebumps watching it, best sports documentary in a while.

Jerry Klause as the fat little man was incredibly harsh. Wow wee. I get the attitudes towards him. Probably got as big headed and egocentric as MJ himself, but gee he did create the Chicago Bulls into what they were.
Absolute shambles prior to drafting MJ, and even after it, still a shambles. Maybe 2-3 seasons with Rose, but Chicago are a joke atm.

 

[Wacky Tiger]

He really was a snide campaigner to the GM wasn’t he lol

No filter at all

Deservedly so by the looks of it though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Rod Stroker]

Watching it tonight. What I don't get is:
They've had this footage since 1998, why did it take them 22 years to make the doco? Why release it now and not years earlier?

 

[peternorth]

Watching it tonight. What I don't get is:
They've had this footage since 1998, why did it take them 22 years to make the doco? Why release it now and not years earlier?

corona virus

 

[SportsCentre]

Watching it tonight. What I don't get is:
They've had this footage since 1998, why did it take them 22 years to make the doco? Why release it now and not years earlier?

Jordan had control or some form of control on the footage.
The popular story is that after Lebron won the 2016 title, and Golden State bettered the Bulls' 72-10 mark, Jordan gave the green light to the documentary being made, a re-establishing of his legacy type thing.

 

[FreoRicci]

Watching it tonight. What I don't get is:
They've had this footage since 1998, why did it take them 22 years to make the doco? Why release it now and not years earlier?

Smart, really. To wait a generation and entice new fans, idols into the Chicago, MJ dynasty.
Millions more into Jordan jerseys, shoes. Add new story to the older generation.
Why release it ASAP after he retire..

 

[Scotland]

Worth the wait. Goosebumps watching it, best sports documentary in a while.

Jerry Klause as the fat little man was incredibly harsh. Wow wee. I get the attitudes towards him. Probably got as big headed and egocentric as MJ himself, but gee he did create the Chicago Bulls into what they were.
Absolute shambles prior to drafting MJ, and even after it, still a shambles. Maybe 2-3 seasons with Rose, but Chicago are a joke atm.

Chicago are and were pretty unsuccessful outside the Jordan Pippen era. Outside the two 3-peats they've never made the finals at any stage. Pre 90/91 they were a 40 win team on average, post 97/98 a 36 win team.

Jerry Krause is definitely being painted as a villain in the doco, but he also wanted to 'rebuild' the 1990s Chicago Bulls before they were done winning championships. He was Bigfooty 'yoof' before it was cool. As a complete outsider I always get the opinion that a lot of NBA players don't respect GMs, coaches, owners etc. who treat them like commodities. It's a 70-80% African American league with some of the finest athletes in the world. Can imagine that some short fat white bloke who works up a sweat walking up the stairs telling you he knows best would be grating.

History isn't kind to Krause - who has no chance to defend his portrayal in the series. Yes he drafted Pippen, traded Oakley, made Phil Jackson head coach but he was adamant Jackson had to go which made Jordan retire again. Jackson went to the Lakers and won 5 rings, Krause's guy Tim Floyd had a best return of 21 wins in 4 seasons. Jordan was still an all star calibre player at the Wizards after 3 full seasons off having retired as reigning MVP. Compare that to Jerry West since he joined the Clippers and traded away CP3 and Blake Griffin, Masai Ujiri who fired Dwayne Casey after finishing 1st in the East and then traded away DeRozan for one year of Kawhi etc. They are lauded because of their results after making unpopular moves. The Bulls didn't get much for Pippen, got nothing for Phil Jackson, no one got anything from Jordan for 3 seasons etc. Ultimately the Bulls were rubbish until Krause finished up and have been mostly rubbish since. That clouds people's memories compared to what he did in the 80s and early 90s.

I find the Pippen contract stuff interesting. I get signing what seemed like a s**t deal given the financial security and at the time $2m a year ish was good money even though signing for that long was rare and not recommended. What I don't get is how there wasn't Jordan/Pippen friction given Jordan was getting more than a team's salary cap in his last two years while Pippen was getting peanuts.