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Cooldude

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Actually no bullet shrapnel doesn't have to removed in fact even with modern surgery in perfect condition it's left in but sure lecturer me more on your fake degrees and your superior knowledge.

You know people can call out your bullshit and not actually have an agenda about defending the game right? That's what I'm attacking is your blatant lying. If you want a rational mature discussion don't start by calling someone a fanboi for simply questioning your rationale and when they provide you with a logical conclusion don't simply ignore it by claiming expertise in a field, as if a place of authority will dismiss it.

Right frontal lobe injuries is something which has affected me personally and something I've studied deeply for a number of years(if you want you can check posts on the Hawthorn board where I've discussed this) not just a 10 minute wikipedia read. So when you claim to be have pyschoolgy degree but refuse to consider the psychiatric changes that comes with injuries to the right hand side of the brain please forgive me for being skeptical of that degree.

Now if you wanted to argue that the set up is contrived then sure it's a valid claim but arguing it's a plothole is nonsensical when real world evidence shows it's plausibility, however that wasn't your argument.

Nope not me but nice try I guess.
Wow, calm down, man. I dunno if you're trolling or you're genuinely this angry, if you ain't trolling then I'm worried. You must be popular with the ladies.

Don't think there's much point if you're getting that upset over someone disagreeing with you on a video game. You sound like a guy out of the youtube comments section

I'll leave you to your ranting and raving, btw, you know absolutely nothing about brain and brain injuries, copy pasting off wiki doesn't quite work, buddy.

You need to chillax and just lie down, it's a video game, yet you act so serious and angry about it. People think differently on video games, no need to go all white knight about it
 
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Cooldude

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Guess I just don't see it as a 180. Its not his preferred action sure, but like I said earlier leaving Abby alive was never an option for him, even when healthy at the start of the game. Its just that he thought he could take care of it himself without putting Ellie in harms way - guessing (and as part of the mental state he seems to be in) he now sees that as the only remaining option. But its all good, agree to disagree, again its interesting the discussion it generates.

Yeah I totally get what you're saying about the bodycount, but at the end of the day they still have to make a video game. Kinda need enemies and encounters throughout otherwise what is it, just a walking/exploration simulator? This angle has long been part of commentary on Uncharted too - good ol' loveable happy-go-lucky Nate Drake, the biggest mass murderer in human history lol. At least here they kinda call it out, make it explicit and a part of Ellie's thought process.

Re: the shot, yep its a blast to the head, just not the brain. I reckon it definitely matters, like you I first thought that Tommy copped it right to the back of the head, which yeah does make his return in the epilogue a bit cheap. But they literally animated it the way they did with the blood blossom on the side of his face rather than back of his head, it's all there on-screen and even in real time you can see it if you're watching closely. Its an attention to detail thing that ensures what comes after make more sense - that kinda stuff shouldn't just be brushed off imo, credit where its due.
The way I saw it, Tommy wasn't even gonna chase Abby until Ellie guilt tripped the hell out of him at the start of the game. So he decided to do it himself so Ellie doesn't have to. Tommy was extremely protective of Ellie throughout the game, so to me it makes no sense that he'd suddenly put her up for danger unless because "the plot demands it".

Here's the thing, the whole premise of the story about "vengeance and violence" just seems silly to me, when Naughty Dog makes millions out of selling very violent video games. This is why I find it very hard to get into the story of "revenge is bad, violence begets violence" trope. I'd argue violence worked out for Abby in the end, she came off well following through with her violent ways. There are many reasons why I find the story just kinda contrived and silly, kinda contradictory in many places.

Nah I have rewatched it, I think he gets shot in the head, but I still find it very hard to believe that Ellie, who was choking on her own blood on the ground, Dina, who has an arrow through her chest, and Tommy, bullet through his head, all somehow made it out of the theater alive by magic. Who's gonna give them first aid in WLF territory, when Ellie herself as a wolf found it hard to get medical supplies? It's another magic "because plot demands it" moment for me.

Also Jesse got shot clearly in the cheek, too, he's dead

All fiction needs a degree of plot asspulls to keep the story going, but the asspulls in this game are a little bit too much for me in places.
 
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theiaofseed

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except when he decides to hit her with his gun instead of shooting her in the face on the maria

Speaking of that moment, how good would a DLC of Tommy destroying Seattle be. That entire marina scene was close to my favourite in the game (apart from lev getting clocked into the garage door)
Are you a masochist? Playing that on survivor I wanted to throw the controller through the tv.
 

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bourbons

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The way I saw it, Tommy wasn't even gonna chase Abby until Ellie guilt tripped the hell out of him at the start of the game. So he decided to do it himself so Ellie doesn't have to. Tommy was extremely protective of Ellie throughout the game, so to me it makes no sense that he'd suddenly put her up for danger unless because "the plot demands it".

Here's the thing, the whole premise of the story about "vengeance and violence" just seems silly to me, when Naughty Dog makes millions out of selling very violent video games. This is why I find it very hard to get into the story of "revenge is bad, violence begets violence" trope. I'd argue violence worked out for Abby in the end, she came off well following through with her violent ways. There are many reasons why I find the story just kinda contrived and silly, kinda contradictory in many places.

Nah I have rewatched it, I think he gets shot in the head, but I still find it very hard to believe that Ellie, who was choking on her own blood on the ground, Dina, who has an arrow through her chest, and Tommy, bullet through his head, all somehow made it out of the theater alive by magic. Who's gonna give them first aid in WLF territory, when Ellie herself as a wolf found it hard to get medical supplies? It's another magic "because plot demands it" moment for me.

Also Jesse got shot clearly in the cheek, too, he's dead

All fiction needs a degree of plot asspulls to keep the story going, but the asspulls in this game are a little bit too much for me in places.
Ah, well there ya go, no wonder we're seeing his actions at the end differently - we saw them differently right from the start. I had no doubt Tommy was gonna go after Abby initially, thought it was just a matter of it he could do it without involving Ellie. The more I think about this though the more I probably agree with you that having Tommy act that way maybe wasn't the right call, even considering his obvious mental state. I think it could have worked just as well if he came to see her and told her, but didn't pressure her to go after Abby. Told her about the tip just coz it was the right thing to do or something along those lines, and whatever she decided to do was fine with him. Still works when Ellie then thinks about it afterwards and decides to go. Maybe they wanted it available as point of conflict between Tommy and Ellie for any potential 3rd game.

Hmm, not sure ND's previous catalogue of games means they should avoid musing on the theme. I'd argue it wasn't the violence that worked out well for Abby, rather it was the choice to break the cycle and leave with Lev ie. would it have all "worked out" for Abby if she chose to kill Ellie instead of sparing her? Seems like a bit of a turning point for her. Her actions up to that point had eventually caused everyone she cared about to be killed.

I mean, you're not wrong - pretty unlikely they all get out of the theatre and away from Seattle in one piece. Then again, I had 3 medkits and maxed supplies on me at the time :D

Video games - like Purple Suit just said, shotgun to the face? No probs bro, this bandage will sort you out :tearsofjoy:

No issues for mine with Jesse, shot through the cheek would generally be a bit more lethal than a bullet clipping the side of your face.
 
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revival_mode

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ok, i know i'm slow but i just finished last night. great game, not without faults but still fantastic.

i don't get the uproar and disgust people had with this game at all. i avoided most of the spoilers (only knew people had issues with Ellie & Dina, and that someone was trans) and i'm glad i did. the issues people had with this stuff don't bother me in the slightest though i just hate spoilers in general.

the whole revenge story is not what i would have gone with if it was up to me but it wasn't bad. i enjoyed the switch to Abby, i preferred her as a character. honestly in keeping with revenge though, what i think would have worked really well (and absolutely the general public would have HATED even more) is if the start of the game was the same, but after Joel dies have Abby be the main character for the whole game. go through her 3 days in Seattle, and have the antagonists be Ellie, Tommy, Jesse etc.

i also think the game should have ended after the Seattle confrontation. i know they delved further into the revenge theme and tied up loose ends, but the whole Santa Barbara act just felt tacked on for me imo.

gameplay wise, whole thing ran super smooth for me. everything felt tight and polished. super pretty, killer visually. i think there was too little actual gameplay (as in combat) and should have been expanded with some more enemies (we got dogs and shamblers as the only additions right? rat king too but that was for like 2 mins).

anyways 9/10 for me. loved it overall
 
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MIZRKO

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I have a question that I need to be answered
Why would I want to play as Abby after what happens to Joel?
 

bok_party

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Ah, well there ya go, no wonder we're seeing his actions at the end differently - we saw them differently right from the start. I had no doubt Tommy was gonna go after Abby initially, thought it was just a matter of it he could do it without involving Ellie. The more I think about this though the more I probably agree with you that having Tommy act that way maybe wasn't the right call, even considering his obvious mental state. I think it could have worked just as well if he came to see her and told her, but didn't pressure her to go after Abby. Told her about the tip just coz it was the right thing to do or something along those lines, and whatever she decided to do was fine with him. Still works when Ellie then thinks about it afterwards and decides to go. Maybe they wanted it available as point of conflict between Tommy and Ellie for any potential 3rd game.

Hmm, not sure ND's previous catalogue of games means they should avoid musing on the theme. I'd argue it wasn't the violence that worked out well for Abby, rather it was the choice to break the cycle and leave with Lev ie. would it have all "worked out" for Abby if she chose to kill Ellie instead of sparing her? Seems like a bit of a turning point for her. Her actions up to that point had eventually caused everyone she cared about to be killed.

I mean, you're not wrong - pretty unlikely they all get out of the theatre and away from Seattle in one piece. Then again, I had 3 medkits and maxed supplies on me at the time :D

Video games - like Purple Suit just said, shotgun to the face? No probs bro, this bandage will sort you out :tearsofjoy:

No issues for mine with Jesse, shot through the cheek would generally be a bit more lethal than a bullet clipping the side of your face.
Being shot in the head by someone you already wanted to kill because they murdered your brother would definitely make you want to go and get revenge though.
 

Purple Suit

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I have a question that I need to be answered
Why would I want to play as Abby after what happens to Joel?
it’s so you understand the motivation of the other character. She lost her father, the game wants you to see it from the otherside and think. Video games offer an amazing medium to experience life in someone else’s shoes and I think it’s a powerful thing.

Full credit to ND for telling something original and recon down the track it will be looked on with higher regard once some of the other bigot crap dies down. Not that I have an issue with people not enjoying it, just as long as it’s for the right reasons. Still GOTY for me. [spoilers]
 

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Jamurp

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Took me almost a month to finish, but finally just finished. Man, I reckon it’s an absolute masterpiece, and I’ve thought that the whole way through, the ending just solidified that.

It’s an emotional gut punch, but it’s filled with so many amazing moments and sequences that are already some of my favourite in gaming. I’d rate it a 10/10, and I’ve played a lot of games over the years.

Been fun talking with you guys over the last few weeks and hearing all your thoughts over the course of the game!
 

Cooldude

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Ah, well there ya go, no wonder we're seeing his actions at the end differently - we saw them differently right from the start. I had no doubt Tommy was gonna go after Abby initially, thought it was just a matter of it he could do it without involving Ellie. The more I think about this though the more I probably agree with you that having Tommy act that way maybe wasn't the right call, even considering his obvious mental state. I think it could have worked just as well if he came to see her and told her, but didn't pressure her to go after Abby. Told her about the tip just coz it was the right thing to do or something along those lines, and whatever she decided to do was fine with him. Still works when Ellie then thinks about it afterwards and decides to go. Maybe they wanted it available as point of conflict between Tommy and Ellie for any potential 3rd game.

Hmm, not sure ND's previous catalogue of games means they should avoid musing on the theme. I'd argue it wasn't the violence that worked out well for Abby, rather it was the choice to break the cycle and leave with Lev ie. would it have all "worked out" for Abby if she chose to kill Ellie instead of sparing her? Seems like a bit of a turning point for her. Her actions up to that point had eventually caused everyone she cared about to be killed.

I mean, you're not wrong - pretty unlikely they all get out of the theatre and away from Seattle in one piece. Then again, I had 3 medkits and maxed supplies on me at the time :D

Video games - like Purple Suit just said, shotgun to the face? No probs bro, this bandage will sort you out :tearsofjoy:

No issues for mine with Jesse, shot through the cheek would generally be a bit more lethal than a bullet clipping the side of your face.
Fair enough, I think we've gone through enough grounds with Tommy so we can probably put a pin on it. I love Tommy personally and was kinda gutted that they made him out to be the way he was in the end

I mean, I heard a line that really describe the storytelling in this game very well for me. "This game tried to elicit certain emotions without making it seem believable, like the first game". The game is trying to make me feel a certain range of sh*t but I just wasn't feeling it because the story telling felt flimsy, forced and contrived.

Whether it's Ellie trying to act all remorseful for the killings when cutscene Ellie seems so far apart from gameplay Ellie who was murdering everyone with a psycho look on her face, people continually survive outrageous wounds with no explanation, Tommy's sudden attitude change, etc. Game tried to make me like Abby, but I found that in the end, she's no different to Joel (in the bad ways), whom she hated, and she's also a homewrecker. The first game was less outrageous than this one in terms of story, and it was very hard to get into it.

Besides, revenge plots are so tropey and cliche, there's only ever two outcomes once Joel got killed: Ellie either kills Abby or she doesn't. The concept of "breaking the cycle of revenge" has been there since forever. By the end of it, during the whole Ellie vs Abby fight, I was just so tired of it and exhausted, probably because the game dragged on for a loooong time. I didn't even give much of a fu**, I just wanted it to end

Really not a fan of the story in many ways, I think there are a million ways they could've approached the story different that would've been way more interesting. It's like everyone forgot that Ellie is kinda the cure for mankind (including Ellie herself) and Abby almost killed her a few times despite knowing that
 

bourbons

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...

Whether it's Ellie trying to act all remorseful for the killings when cutscene Ellie seems so far apart from gameplay Ellie who was murdering everyone with a psycho look on her face, people continually survive outrageous wounds with no explanation, Tommy's sudden attitude change, etc. Game tried to make me like Abby, but I found that in the end, she's no different to Joel (in the bad ways), whom she hated, and she's also a homewrecker. The first game was less outrageous than this one in terms of story, and it was very hard to get into it.

Besides, revenge plots are so tropey and cliche, there's only ever two outcomes once Joel got killed: Ellie either kills Abby or she doesn't. The concept of "breaking the cycle of revenge" has been there since forever. By the end of it, during the whole Ellie vs Abby fight, I was just so tired of it and exhausted, probably because the game dragged on for a loooong time. I didn't even give much of a fu**, I just wanted it to end

Really not a fan of the story in many ways, I think there are a million ways they could've approached the story different that would've been way more interesting. It's like everyone forgot that Ellie is kinda the cure for mankind (including Ellie herself) and Abby almost killed her a few times despite knowing that
Isn't that just a video game thing rather than a TLOU thing though? Going back to the Uncharted example - one minute Drake is mowing down enemies by the hundreds, the next he's cracking jokes with Sully and Elena like it never happened. If we're going to dissect things to this degree, I reckon thats actually more jarring than having the character reflect on their actions - not that I care in the slightest with either example, in the end the developer still has to make a functioning video game.

You've probably got a point about game length, I didn't have as much of an issue with the Santa Barbara stuff as some seem to but still, reckon they could have shaved a good 5 or 6 hours off the game and not lost too much.

Re: the cure angle, issues with viability and potential usefulness aside, Abby knew they couldn't make the cure now anyway coz the only person who had the skills to do it was dead (her dad). This was explicitly spelled out in some dialogue, might have been a recording you find iirc.
 

Barry Roundhouse

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I have a question that I need to be answered
Why would I want to play as Abby after what happens to Joel?
To find out why she did what she did?
This.. plus

From Abby's perspective (and mine when i finished the game), Joel got what he deserved. He killed a whole heap of firefly's, Abbys Dad and killed any chance of creating a vaccine that could save the Human Race. From a Utilitarian stand point, he is clearly the villain. From Abby's, she was entitled to seek revenge in the world that they are in.

When i started playing as Abby, i felt the same. By the end, i completely understood her motivation and wanted to kill Ellie. Hell, id go back and fu** up Joel a second time.

A game that made me feel all that, is a masterpiece
 

bok_party

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This.. plus

From Abby's perspective (and mine when i finished the game), Joel got what he deserved. He killed a whole heap of firefly's, Abbys Dad and killed any chance of creating a vaccine that could save the Human Race. From a Utilitarian stand point, he is clearly the villain. From Abby's, she was entitled to seek revenge in the world that they are in.

When i started playing as Abby, i felt the same. By the end, i completely understood her motivation and wanted to kill Ellie. Hell, id go back and fu** up Joel a second time.

A game that made me feel all that, is a masterpiece
I agree to an extent. I also feel Joel was justified too in saving someone he loved. Majority of people would sacrifice a cure to save their child/partner/parent. I’m confident of that.
 

netslave

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That's why the game was so good imo, it let you see the story from the different perspectives of the characters, giving you the chance to side with either of them. It may have been a bit forced but I think it was all the better off for it.
 

Struggle

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This.. plus

From Abby's perspective (and mine when i finished the game), Joel got what he deserved. He killed a whole heap of firefly's, Abbys Dad and killed any chance of creating a vaccine that could save the Human Race. From a Utilitarian stand point, he is clearly the villain. From Abby's, she was entitled to seek revenge in the world that they are in.

When i started playing as Abby, i felt the same. By the end, i completely understood her motivation and wanted to kill Ellie. Hell, id go back and fu** up Joel a second time.

A game that made me feel all that, is a masterpiece
That's one thing i didn't like about this game, trying to turn the Fireflys into heroes. They took all of Joels weapons away from him after he made a cross country delivery and pretty much said gtfo, you're lucky we aren't killing you. The fireflies already tried and failed with the cure as seen with the monkey tapes at the college. In this one, the hospital was all clean and nice compared to the run down shithole in the first game.
Joel wasnt a good guy, but he's far from a villain, the fireflies didn't even give Ellie the option of what to do with her life and were willing to straight up murder a child on the hope that something may work.

I understand Abby thinking like that due to losing her dad. I hope the clean hospital and those things are due to Abby remembering it how she wants to, with her dad being some sort of hero rather than how it actually was.
 

Valentino Dmitri

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First game ending spoiler discussion

Couldn't find from a quick google and can't remember properly - was there a good reason for Ellie's possible death not being brought up before the procedure?

I understand they found out she'd need to die as they were operating. Was it not brought up before the operation that there was a chance she'd die, and was she still okay with taking the risk? They were operating on her brain.

If not, was there a reason they didn't wait for her to wake up, tell her what was going to happen, and then restart the operation? Yes the stakes are extremely high but ethically it seems a stretch.

Like I say I don't remember it that well but it seems a bit contrived for the sake of moral ambiguity.
 

HBK619

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First game ending spoiler discussion

Couldn't find from a quick google and can't remember properly - was there a good reason for Ellie's possible death not being brought up before the procedure?

I understand they found out she'd need to die as they were operating. Was it not brought up before the operation that there was a chance she'd die, and was she still okay with taking the risk? They were operating on her brain.

If not, was there a reason they didn't wait for her to wake up, tell her what was going to happen, and then restart the operation? Yes the stakes are extremely high but ethically it seems a stretch.

Like I say I don't remember it that well but it seems a bit contrived for the sake of moral ambiguity.
I think the assumption here (and this is where there's moral dilemma's from both sides - and fault from both sides) is that if they told her and she said no, then what next? They can't force her into it. But they believe she is literally the ONLY key to saving the human race. So getting her into the surgery under false pretenses is probably, from their point of view, the easiest option.

It's not like normal surgery, where you sign waivers or whatever and go in knowing the risks. They put it to her and Joel that it wasn't life threatening and Joel only found out after she was under, which sent him ballistic.

As much as there's a lot that do like to play the "Joel was the bad guy as well", there's moral ambiguity and fault from everyone and it all basically stems from the situation they found themselves in.

I think we all now know what people do in dire situations, and we know that they certainly all don't play the moral game. People are willing to lie, cheat and steal as long as they get their own way.
 

Cooldude

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Isn't that just a video game thing rather than a TLOU thing though? Going back to the Uncharted example - one minute Drake is mowing down enemies by the hundreds, the next he's cracking jokes with Sully and Elena like it never happened. If we're going to dissect things to this degree, I reckon thats actually more jarring than having the character reflect on their actions - not that I care in the slightest with either example, in the end the developer still has to make a functioning video game.

You've probably got a point about game length, I didn't have as much of an issue with the Santa Barbara stuff as some seem to but still, reckon they could have shaved a good 5 or 6 hours off the game and not lost too much.

Re: the cure angle, issues with viability and potential usefulness aside, Abby knew they couldn't make the cure now anyway coz the only person who had the skills to do it was dead (her dad). This was explicitly spelled out in some dialogue, might have been a recording you find iirc.

But Nathan Drake never really tried to make any moral commentary like "the cycle of violence/revenge is bad" though, plus this game takes its story very seriously, probably more seriously than any naughty dog game ever, including the first. Which is why the whole moral commentary about violence/revenge kinda falls flat for me

Oh Joel was a piece of sh*t for not only murdering the chance of a cure but also all the people with the expertise and knowledge (like doctors), but with the size of the WLF and what they have managed to accomplish as a group, surely there's someone out there still with some level of knowledge when it comes to doing something with Ellie's immunity
 

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