Tertiary and Continuing The Law Thread

[Black Diamond]

Yeah, the OPP and legal aid have definitely taken a hit in recent years in Victoria, but they have a fair turnover of staff (many go to the Bar or to private practice) so there's still opportunities, especially at entry level - they tend to promote internally to replace people and then bring in new people at the bottom.

I'd certainly take them over private practice, particularly as an entry point; there's some really bad ones out there, and a bad entry to the profession can be really damaging.

Can you describe these bad ones? What makes them so?

 

[Black Diamond]

I have a situation where I have ****ed around a lot at uni. I started in 2008 enrolled in Law/Econ, failed quite a few subjects and even took a couple of years off.

In that off-time I worked FT in financial planning administration. It was a good job and I collected some good references and experience.

At the earliest I can finish my law degree by the end of next year. I'm not bothering with economics anymore because I just want to get out of there.

I see my future as returning to a similar admin job to the one listed above and progressing up the financial advice chain, but also possibly in a compliance capacity.

From a GPA perspective my chances at a big firm are shot, but at the same time I can't rule out throwing my hat into the ring.

 

[Donners]

Can you describe these bad ones? What makes them so?

There's some which just run their new employees into the ground while making them well aware of how easily replacable they are, some with utterly sleazy "boys' club" cultures, some which encourage really dodgy practices, some run by people who are just not competent. A few combine some or all of those features.

I know half a dozen which I would not work at for triple my current salary.

 

[Vic Vinegar]

On a separate note, has anyone had any legal experience overseas? I'm thinking about doing a working holiday in Europe and would be interested in doing an internship, even volunteering for six months or so. Something better to put on the resume than bar work or fruitpicking.

Do foreign companies offer this kind of work?

 

[Impunity!]

There's some which just run their new employees into the ground while making them well aware of how easily replacable they are, some with utterly sleazy "boys' club" cultures, some which encourage really dodgy practices, some run by people who are just not competent. A few combine some or all of those features.

I know half a dozen which I would not work at for triple my current salary.

This is true though.

 

[Donners]

This is true though.

Oh, absolutely it is. There's a glut of them these days, and so many would jump at the chance to work in even a crap environment if it got them a foot in the door.

There's still a line between making people earn their spot and exploiting them mercilessly, though, and some places lean a bit too far to the latter.

 

[Shoei]

So how did you guys get started?

HD average honour students that saved Sumatran Orangatangs and built orphanages in Africa for Aids infected children while holding down 3 jobs?

 

[Impunity!]

So how did you guys get started?

HD average honour students that saved Sumatran Orangatangs and built orphanages in Africa for Aids infected children while holding down 3 jobs?

Did as many clerkships as I could
Was OK at them
?????
Profit!

 

[Troubadour]

This thread (and Chief's early experiences) ended up motivating me to start a law degree part time from the start of 2013 as a (very) mature aged student.

I've found it a very rewarding experience so far. I have no firm plans on what to do with the law degree upon completion as yet, if anything, I really started it out of personal interest. Far too old for grad programs and working my way up again so will most likely get the practicing cert and use it in a commercial setting or on personal projects.

If you're contemplating a part time law degree its not as daunting as it seems.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Criminal law's the way to go. No shortage of work, not nearly as attractive to a lot of graduates and the standard isn't that high - particularly at some places which come to mind. ("What do you mean I need to file a Form 32? What's a Form 32?)

do you see many people making the transition from commercial to criminal after say 2-3yrs pae?

 

[Donners]

do you see many people making the transition from commercial to criminal after say 2-3yrs pae?

Not really; most people I know in criminal law started out in a neutral role like judge's associate or did a clerkship or the like at a practice which at least offered some crime.

It might be more common in the more technical areas like fraud, but most crime solicitors I know started out on that path early in their career. There might be a perceived drop in prestige, and a definite drop in earning potential, from commercial.

 

[Shoei]

Any idea's on jobs that Law students sometimes over look? I'm not going to get clerkships and my transcript is average.

My fall back position is joining the army as a Legal Officer. I'll be damned if I'm not going to use this bloody degree somehow!

 

[Impunity!]

Not really; most people I know in criminal law started out in a neutral role like judge's associate or did a clerkship or the like at a practice which at least offered some crime.

It might be more common in the more technical areas like fraud, but most crime solicitors I know started out on that path early in their career. There might be a perceived drop in prestige, and a definite drop in earning potential, from commercial.

We deal in a nicer sort of miscreant in the top tier

 

[Vic Vinegar]

Any idea's on jobs that Law students sometimes over look? I'm not going to get clerkships and my transcript is average.

My fall back position is joining the army as a Legal Officer. I'll be damned if I'm not going to use this bloody degree somehow!

It always depends on which area of law you want to work in. There are some nice legal related government jobs out there which involve handling legislation/filework on a daily basis, but they do take a bit of locating (but are quite well remunerated). Some CLCs offer internships as well and there are a few New Lawyers Programs out there. Legal Aid takes on new lawyers in this way, and here in Victoria there are a number of allied roles there with require law degrees as well.

Otherwise its a matter of doing College of Law, brushing up on your ECs and hitting the pavement. Call any law firms you can find and ask to speak to HR. The worst that can happen is you get rebuffed (and it will happen)

 

[Vic Vinegar]

do you see many people making the transition from commercial to criminal after say 2-3yrs pae?

If you are willing to work in the NT, there are plenty of crim law jobs up there (NAAJA for example) that will give you are far better grounding than in most other states as they are crying out for lawyers. Mate of mine did that and is now interviewing at the OPP.

 

[Impunity!]

If you are willing to work in the NT, there are plenty of crim law jobs up there (NAAJA for example) that will give you are far better grounding than in most other states as they are crying out for lawyers. Mate of mine did that and is now interviewing at the OPP.

He's down with OPP?

 

[Vic Vinegar]

He's down with OPP?

He's from Victoria. He did two years up there then returned to Vic and applied with the OPP.

 

[Impunity!]

He's from Victoria. He did two years up there then returned to Vic and applied with the OPP.

I'm sorry, the correct answer was "Yeah you know me". 2/10, must try harder.

 

[Vic Vinegar]

I'm sorry, the correct answer was "Yeah you know me". 2/10, must try harder.

My bad

 

[TheMightyEagles]

Well China's concept of a "Legal System" is very different to ours. Apart from being a Civil Law system, you are expected to use your social networking to influence your legal cases. Corruption is a very blurred concept there.

Sitting the bar exam in China, only 7% of people pass each year, and the exam is only in Mandarin. We met students doing their masters in Law that had failed the test 3-4 times and these were students that had scholarships to top universities in the United States and Europe.

You think our job market is bad? Graduate positions in China and Hong Kong attract up to 10,000 applications for a single position.

If practicing law in China interests you, I wouldn't be put off by this. Unless you hold a Chinese or HK passport, you will be unable to sit the Chinese bar exam anyway. All that matters is that you have a legal practicing certificate from somewhere. Internationally an Australian practicing certificate is worth its weight in gold.

You can choose to practice law in China at a local or international firm. Local firms mainly deal with domestic matters relating to PRC law. You are better off working at an international firm though. They cannot advise on PRC law, but instead help Chinese companies with M&A and outbound investment (i.e. Chinese companies investing money into foreign countries), financing and international arbitration. There are also a bunch of smaller boutique firms around that I am sure would be keen to find experienced Australian lawyers who are interesting in working in China.

As a law student though, I would first advise you to get some experience in Australia (or any other developed jurisdiction) and your practicing certificate. Its not necessary to work at a big firm, but its useful to find somewhere that helps you to develop corporate law skills.

 

[TheMightyEagles]

I graduate this time next year.

I find the law around IP very interesting. I've enjoyed all the IP units I've done, went to China and did introduction to Chinese IP, received an award for essay writing in IP from Wrays here in Perth etc

I'm actually a mature age student (my background is in Drill and Blast in the mining industry).

I'd be stoked to get a job doing ANYTHING, but IP, Contracts and mining are my favorite areas of law.

There's nothing wrong with looking for a firm that gives you the option to learn IP law, but you don't need to settle into a practice area for the first couple of years. A lot of firms force graduates to rotate through 3-4 practice areas. It's also a lot easier to lateral between firms once you get those first couple of years under your belt.

 

[Donners]

If you are willing to work in the NT, there are plenty of crim law jobs up there (NAAJA for example) that will give you are far better grounding than in most other states as they are crying out for lawyers. Mate of mine did that and is now interviewing at the OPP.

Do you know what level position he is going for? The higher levels tend to go internally, depending on the unit.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Practising.

 

[TheMightyEagles]

Practising.

For all the law students, this is what working in law does to you. After being forced to attend English vs. American spelling courses as a grad. Or working for a crazy partner who loses his shit and forces you to work past midnight because you used "obligated" rather than "obliged".

 

[Impunity!]

For all the law students, this is what working in law does to you. After being forced to attend English vs. American spelling courses as a grad. Or working for a crazy partner who loses his shit and forces you to work past midnight because you used "obligated" rather than "obliged".

I AM THAT PARTNER