The Live Strategy and Content Thread

[b0ydman]

Basic thought process was he always has a king, is never folding, and I need to get the money in now rather then getting a card like the Ts on the turn.

I made it $85, folded back to him, he open folds T7o .

CRuL, thoughts on the other hand above it?

im sorry, i dont get it

why did you fold a book of jacks full of kings, thinking all he had to that point was a set of kings?

how could a ten or a suit of any kind matter? a straight or flush wont beat your book. only his kings full of book.

he was what- 20% at best to beat you

+15

 

[ashley12]

hey. even if he had the king all you had to worry about was being counterfeited. chances very slim. even if you went all in heads up the cards would do it anyway

no no, assume he didn't. if he did he's have checked. hopes for either a bet and call, or a free card to the turn then bet

10 makes straight, how would that hurt you?

id put him on nothing and put someone else possibly on a king. i'd love that. no way would i raise...unless it was on line. then its ALL IN eh ;-) you know, the algorithm where everyone has a slice of it

+14

- Firstly you said I was winning all the money, now you claim that you knew he didn't have a king? Okay

- The ten of spades hurts me in a few ways. Either

1) he has KT and now makes a full house (given its a raised pot, if he has a king it is going to have a goodish kicker most of the time, not K2 or K4 etc... or

2) He has a hand like KQ and is going to slow down and not put all his money in because he is scared I have a straight or a flush.

- There is no way you can presume that someone behind you has exactly a king, since they have not yet acted on their hand, thus the only ranges you can give them are preflop ranges, which while they might contain a king, card removal and wide ranges suggests they are less likely to have a king then their usual preflop range.

Fact is, if the bettor has a king (a big part of his betting range) then he is unlikely to fold it to a raise. So I want to raise to get more money in the pot and hopefully have stacks in the by the river.

If he has a stack of 200 then maybe I would just call, but there is too much back to risk losing a street of value.

-------------------

Damn, I hate when posts are right on the line of either trolling or just a misapplication of a concept.

 

[b0ydman]

Okay, so I just want to follow properly here

You folded a full house, jacks full of kings, on the flop, because you thought he might have a good kicker to go with his King set- that might hit a lucky full house on the turn or river and then beat your Jacks/ kings full house?

is that correct?

are you suggesting my posts seeking clarification that you folded a full house to a set?

surely we're not reading this right. you said "I folded to him"

if you re-raised and HE folded yeah i can see that. take the money now if yo uare afraid of being beaten by a king high flush. although i'd be extremely unlikely to fold that on the law of averages

 

[b0ydman]

- Firstly you said I was winning all the money, now you claim that you knew he didn't have a king? Okay

- .

when i said you were winning, i meant statisical probability said 87/100 you would win that pot.

id put him on a flush draw, straight draw or pair of aces

unlikely to have him on a king IMO. but then on line with 5 players behind and a weak kicker yeah i'd fire off a bet on that one, hoping to kill someone with an ace or draw chasers

if i were going in tho i wouldnt go $25. it would be all in to narrow the action.

if there are 5 players the pot is minimum $125

a $25 bet give people 6 to 1 on their money. that not enough to get them off it if they are on a draw.

+21

 

[ashley12]

Okay, so I just want to follow properly here

You folded a full house, jacks full of kings, on the flop, because you thought he might have a good kicker to go with his King set- that might hit a lucky full house on the turn or river and then beat your Jacks/ kings full house?

is that correct?

are you suggesting my posts seeking clarification that you folded a full house to a set?

surely we're not reading this right. you said "I folded to him"

if you re-raised and HE folded yeah i can see that. take the money now if yo uare afraid of being beaten by a king high flush. although i'd be extremely unlikely to fold that on the law of averages

No I didnt fold...

He bet $25, I raised to $80, folded around to him, and he folded, showing a T7o hand...

At no point am I considering folding on the flop. If the board runs out KKJ-Q-T then maybe, or if I get counterfeited on the turn/river.

The question was either to call, possibly allowing others to overcall with a draw, or to raise to try and get the money in by the river agianst the bettor in the hopes that he has a king.

 

[b0ydman]

No I didnt fold...

He bet $25, I raised to $80, folded around to him, and he folded, showing a T7o hand...

At no point am I considering folding on the flop. If the board runs out KKJ-Q-T then maybe, or if I get counterfeited on the turn/river.

The question was either to call, possibly allowing others to overcall with a draw, or to raise to try and get the money in by the river agianst the bettor in the hopes that he has a king.

i follow

just when you said "I folded" in the OP

yeah, i go for the money. if i get counterfeited, i just shrug and say "thats poker"

 

[ashley12]

Another hand, less exciting.

Random player, standard 35yo tradie type, limps, I raise to 25 with JJ, a few calls, he calls. He is playing around $500, the others between 300 and 500.

Flop is 4 or 5 ways.

FLOP: $100: KKJ two spades

Tradie donks $25 first to act, Im next to act.

Call or raise?

Not exactly sure where I said I folded in this post but anyway...

 

[Jimi]

b0yd - the table folded around, not hero.

 

[b0ydman]

Basic thought process was he always has a king, is never folding, and I need to get the money in now rather then getting a card like the Ts on the turn.

I made it $85, folded back to him, he open folds T7o .

CRuL, thoughts on the other hand above it?

doesn't matter, i follow it now

 

[ashley12]

doesn't matter, i follow it now

Ok, but that is not an OP though...

 

[checkraiseulite]

Another hand.

$2/5 ~$1.2k effective. Villain is an ok semi-reg who is fairly loose preflop. Creative/thinking player.

Villain 1 makes it $20 in MP, I call OTB with K:spade:J:spade:. Unknown BB makes it $75 to go. Villain calls, I call.

Flop is 8,9,10 with a heart draw. It checks around.

Turn is an off-suit Q. BB checks, villain checks, I bet $150. BB folds. Villain tanks, asks for a chip-count, looks like he's cutting out a raise and then decides to call.

River is off suit 9. Villain leads into me for $225.

I do what?

 

[DoggyStyle]

Looking for some advise on a piece of play, in regards to both rules and etiquette.

I have a situation that occurred in a home game, and looking for peoples thoughts.

The situation occurred in a pot between two people, actually cards are irrelevant but on the River player A raises and player B contemplates the call and states that he is thinking of calling and decides to flip his cards over to play them face up.

Obviously player B thinks he is behind and is making a bit of an angle shoot to gauge player A's reaction.

Ethically is this allowable? and if so in a home game would it be acceptable at the Casino.

They way I see it, player B, whilst angle shooting is giving all the power to player A to either take the pot from a fold, fold a re raise if he sees that he is beaten, or go all in if he is re-raised and knows he has the best hand..

Thoughts?

 

[JuddsABlue]

Another hand.

$2/5 ~$1.2k effective. Villain is an ok semi-reg who is fairly loose preflop. Creative/thinking player.

Villain 1 makes it $20 in MP, I call OTB with K:spade:J:spade:. Unknown BB makes it $75 to go. Villain calls, I call.

Flop is 8,9,10 with a heart draw. It checks around.

Turn is an off-suit Q. BB checks, villain checks, I bet $150. BB folds. Villain tanks, asks for a chip-count, looks like he's cutting out a raise and then decides to call.

River is off suit 9. Villain leads into me for $225.

I do what?

Hate life

Villians opening range is all over this flop, including his PPs etc. Would he check a set on this flop, then c/call on that turn? I think he could be more likely to lead on that turn with a set rather than be c/calling against your super wide range. Who knows though, a bad player certainly would but you dont seem to view villian as a bad player

Based on reads and the opinion villian is a good player I think hes more likely to have a Jack + pair type hand. I dont think the 9 changes the villians perception of your hand, you havent played in any way that would indicate 2 pair or a set, so I think hes still leading into you with a J trying for value rather than allowing you to check behind with single pairs etc, it seems very valuey.

With this in mind a raise seems plausable, but raise folding half your stack doesnt seem great either and hes not coming back over you with anything worse. Still I think raising is best, somewhere around $530, but you can flat if you want to see his hand or not get into an awkward river spot

 

[JuddsABlue]

Looking for some advise on a piece of play, in regards to both rules and etiquette.

I have a situation that occurred in a home game, and looking for peoples thoughts.

The situation occurred in a pot between two people, actually cards are irrelevant but on the River player A raises and player B contemplates the call and states that he is thinking of calling and decides to flip his cards over to play them face up.

Obviously player B thinks he is behind and is making a bit of an angle shoot to gauge player A's reaction.

Ethically is this allowable? and if so in a home game would it be acceptable at the Casino.

They way I see it, player B, whilst angle shooting is giving all the power to player A to either take the pot from a fold, fold a re raise if he sees that he is beaten, or go all in if he is re-raised and knows he has the best hand..

Thoughts?

I know Crown doesnt allow it but lots of other casinos do (or maybe did but now its changed) but its a bit of an old school trick and I dont think its viewed as an angle.

It depends on your homegames rules though, in some places its allowed and others it isnt but its not an angle as such IMO, just part of the fun of a home game

 

[ashley12]

Another hand.

$2/5 ~$1.2k effective. Villain is an ok semi-reg who is fairly loose preflop. Creative/thinking player.

Villain 1 makes it $20 in MP, I call OTB with K:spade:J:spade:. Unknown BB makes it $75 to go. Villain calls, I call.

Flop is 8,9,10 with a heart draw. It checks around.

Turn is an off-suit Q. BB checks, villain checks, I bet $150. BB folds. Villain tanks, asks for a chip-count, looks like he's cutting out a raise and then decides to call.

River is off suit 9. Villain leads into me for $225.

I do what?

I just call if I know that villian will rarely bet/call with a naked jack.

Though that said, he is unlikely to 3bet you on the river with anything less then Tens full I think, which would lean me toward a raise/fold assuming he could never turn say, J9, into a bluff (or in his mind 3bet it for value, which would be LOL)

I might have to get back to you on this hand. (actually need to get some uni work done)

Looking for some advise on a piece of play, in regards to both rules and etiquette.

I have a situation that occurred in a home game, and looking for peoples thoughts.

The situation occurred in a pot between two people, actually cards are irrelevant but on the River player A raises and player B contemplates the call and states that he is thinking of calling and decides to flip his cards over to play them face up.

Obviously player B thinks he is behind and is making a bit of an angle shoot to gauge player A's reaction.

Ethically is this allowable? and if so in a home game would it be acceptable at the Casino.

They way I see it, player B, whilst angle shooting is giving all the power to player A to either take the pot from a fold, fold a re raise if he sees that he is beaten, or go all in if he is re-raised and knows he has the best hand..

Thoughts?

Would generally be verboten at most casinos I think. Depends on where you flicked your cards (i.e just in front of you would be okay, but if you threw them face up into the middle of the table, then your hand is dead.

However, home games are usually pretty relaxed so I wouldnt try to call anyones hand dead whether I was in the hand or not.

 

[DoggyStyle]

Would generally be verboten at most casinos I think.

Thanks for your thoughts, so your saying that play is interdict at a Casino then?.

 

[b0ydman]

Another hand.

$2/5 ~$1.2k effective. Villain is an ok semi-reg who is fairly loose preflop. Creative/thinking player.

Villain 1 makes it $20 in MP, I call OTB with K:spade:J:spade:. Unknown BB makes it $75 to go. Villain calls, I call.

Flop is 8,9,10 with a heart draw. It checks around.

Turn is an off-suit Q. BB checks, villain checks, I bet $150. BB folds. Villain tanks, asks for a chip-count, looks like he's cutting out a raise and then decides to call.

River is off suit 9. Villain leads into me for $225.

I do what?

i couldn't get away, i'd call and pray he didnt hit a book with that 9 or a pocket set.

i have a gut feel he's on 10J and hit it on the turn, or 10 10 hoping you will re-raise with a J.

definitely won't re-raise, definitely can't get away from it

+40

 

[b0ydman]

Thanks for your thoughts, so your saying that play is interdict at a Casino then?.

always ask dealer first. s/he makes the table rule. 99/100 id expect they will say its a muck

i find home games are just for fun, so if you are last to act and its heads up, if you ask the opponent if he minds and he says yes, then dont

if he says no i dont mind, it adds to the night, which is about a bit of fun

ive played plenty of games in sydney at pokerdome and jade and other places, its generally table rule, provided its 2 handed and you are last to act, and have asked

i had 1 guy not in the hand and he objected we told him to shut it- he's not in the hand he can go f himself
+41

 

[checkraiseulite]

I rivered a back door flush for the nuts once when I was playing Crown 2/3 whilst really drunk.

Guy bet into me and I overbet shoved and exposed the Ad.

The guy called (with a set I think) and i got dealt out for a while after he kicked up a bit of a fuss about it.

Was pretty funny.

 

[Ricketts]

Another hand.

$2/5 ~$1.2k effective. Villain is an ok semi-reg who is fairly loose preflop. Creative/thinking player.

Villain 1 makes it $20 in MP, I call OTB with K:spade:J:spade:. Unknown BB makes it $75 to go. Villain calls, I call.

Flop is 8,9,10 with a heart draw. It checks around.

Turn is an off-suit Q. BB checks, villain checks, I bet $150. BB folds. Villain tanks, asks for a chip-count, looks like he's cutting out a raise and then decides to call.

River is off suit 9. Villain leads into me for $225.

I do what?

I dunno why he'd check it twice? (flop and turn.)

Hands that improve with that river and beat you (full houses) are also quite strong on the flop and turn (sets and two-pairs.) Hence why I am not sure he'd check it twice.

 

[ashley12]

I dunno why he'd check it twice? (flop and turn.)

Hands that improve with that river and beat you (full houses) are also quite strong on the flop and turn (sets and two-pairs.) Hence why I am not sure he'd check it twice.

Yeah, more I think about it the more I like raising, but I would only do so with a plan if we get 3bet... We have to raise fold if they are deep enough to have a shove over our raise obv, but I hate folding so idk...

 

[checkraiseulite]

Another hand.

$2/5 ~$1.2k effective. Villain is an ok semi-reg who is fairly loose preflop. Creative/thinking player.

Villain 1 makes it $20 in MP, I call OTB with K:spade:J:spade:. Unknown BB makes it $75 to go. Villain calls, I call.

Flop is 8,9,10 with a heart draw. It checks around.

Turn is an off-suit Q. BB checks, villain checks, I bet $150. BB folds. Villain tanks, asks for a chip-count, looks like he's cutting out a raise and then decides to call.

River is off suit 9. Villain leads into me for $225.

I do what?

Spoiler

I tank-called, decideding that he was a good enough player to never be calling a raise with just a jack. We chopped the pot.

 

[checkraiseulite]

$700 effective on a $2/3 table.

Villain has only been at the table for 10-15 minutes and doubled up vs the table fish with the nuts on a 4 flush board. Villain appears relatively competent. I have 3bet his open twice previously in the last 10 minutes, he has folded once and called once to check/fold on the flop.

New player posts utg and straddles to $6. Villain makes it $15 in MP, one call. I make it $60 on the button with AA. Villain calls.

Flop is J10x r. Villain donks into me for $60 which is a little surprising. I raise to $150. Villain insta-ships. I do what?

 

[ashley12]

$700 effective on a $2/3 table.

Villain has only been at the table for 10-15 minutes and doubled up vs the table fish with the nuts on a 4 flush board. Villain appears relatively competent. I have 3bet his open twice previously in the last 10 minutes, he has folded once and called once to check/fold on the flop.

New player posts utg and straddles to $6. Villain makes it $15 in MP, one call. I make it $60 on the button with AA. Villain calls.

Flop is J10x r. Villain donks into me for $60 which is a little surprising. I raise to $150. Villain insta-ships. I do what?

I was saying snap call, then realised it was $700 effective.

Not exactly sure. Against some villians with different stack sizes im inclined to flat the donk to allow a turn shoveraise particularly if they are the type that are inclined to donk QJs to see where they are at...

As played, this spot seems pretty lame. Whether he would ever have QQ and KK here is paramount. And since we rarely get to see 4bets in live poker, let alone 4bet ranges, its tough to tell.

By adding those hands is huge (since we absolutely crush them vs sometimes when you stove hands where the hands you add you might only have 52% equity against or whatever such as 12 out draws... (flushdraw and gutshot)

I think raise/folding the flop with one pair hands is generally bad, but this is about as good of a spot to do it as any...

Call > Fold imo... but it is close... If I knew he would never play QQ or KK this way, then I would folding and it isnt particularly close...

 

[checkraiseulite]

I decided to fold.

He shows AJ and was like "i knew you had nothing".

facepalm.jpg