The LOSS Response Thread

[Styxx]

Game was lost at the selection table. Not sure if I heard this right but apparently Duigan, Waite and Laidler all could have played correct?

That is where we fell down, Jamison has been carrying foot problems for two weeks now and that oversight was self destructive. With him down we were forced to use Thornton as our main defender, while I love T-Bird he was put into a spot that he was incapable of completely delivering in on.

Austin is gone, he's not a scapegoat for today but surely has done nothing in four years at Carlton and really needs to be sent packing. Why wasn't Watson considered? I don't care if we play and 18 or 19 year old and they don't dominate his opponenet but it looked like we went back to years past where we had no defense whatsoever.

Positive were Betts and Garlett combined for 5 goals, which means they did what they were supposed to do together.

It was lost at the selection table again, the first real slip up from that standpoint this year.

This is and should remain the worst loss we have for the year. I'm not prepared to accept this display again, the list has progressed way to far now to go backwards.

 

[40yearBLUE]

Game was lost at the selection table. Not sure if I heard this right but apparently Duigan, Waite and Laidler all could have played correct?

May be true, who knows. And if true, who knows if, in the bigger picture it was a mistake? I had that feeling. I felt we seemed to be "resting" players and expecting our form would carry us....but this is one of those questions that hindsight could provide a really different answer. Could. Not will, could.

Lets say for a moment that there were signs, niggles, fatigue, etc that got the coaching crew thinking, for us to have an impact in the finals, we really need our best 22 fit and firing. And its a long hard season. We cant afford the sort of outs we had today going into a final. So we manage some players through the year...take a look at the players being managed....Robbo a kamikaze whos body must be feeling the effects of his game style, Duigan, although he has a mature body, he is still brand new to the pace and rigours of AFL and Curnow, also a first year player taken slightly older than the usual rookie. Waite and Laidler have had genuine niggles but better to get them 100% right and fit and firing come finals than to risk them mid season and lose them by bringing them back too early.

So say they make a considered decision bearing in mind they risked and it transpired we could or would lose a game. And we finish top 4 but with the majority of the list cherry ripe and we tear it up in Sept......how would you feel about it then?

I hate to see us lose, but nowhere near as much as I hate to see us lose finals. Could be a good loss if you know what I mean.

 

[mediumsizered]

Perhaps you dont fully understand what depth means. Today we played the depth for our depth players because even our depth players are out injured.

And perhaps you also dont understand that the top teams have about 6 or 8 depth players, but if they have to play ALL of them at once or worse, have to play all of them at once first up in the same game because they had 4 or 5 forced injury changes, they are going to struggle.

Perhaps not a great example but an example none the less is the fall of the Bombers, first 6 rounds on fire, lose a couple of players in round 4 but were able to cover them, lost a couple more and thats it, they were overstretched and could no longer cover.

We have much more depth across more areas of the ground than we have had in the past. We are still a KP forward and a KP defender shy, but we can usually cover for them, all other things being equal. We can lose players such as Waite, and cover for them, we can lose players like Bower and cover for them, we can lose players like Laidler and cover for him, we can even lose Jamo for a game and cover (didnt play in our first 2 wins and has been subbed out of a few now but we managed to keep up the defensive pressure in those games because we had the cover), we lost Knockers and covered him with either Hammer or Irish and Hammer had really played well the last 2 weeks keeping Knockers out of the side (all examples of our depth working for us);

but to lose Curnow, Robbo, Duigan and Hammer in the same week, on top of not having Waite and Laidler and suddenly we are, LIKE ANY TEAM WOULD BE, stretched. That is 6 of your starting 18, a third of our key personnel gone, 2 we could cover, 6.......big ask.

That is not a lack of depth hurting us, but a lack of a second fully ready AFL list, no team has that. No team has 40 first grade AFL quality players on their list. Not one team has that kind of depth. Like I said, Aussie and Okeefe are understudies to our understudies, I posted in another thread that our actual depth players are also injured so our last line make up the numbers players have suddenly been called upon. I am stoked they got a chance and am not bagging them, they are what they are, they tried, they are good VFL players and got selected on good VFL form but lets not kid ourselves, if we did not have they injuries they would not be getting the call up and they didnt show enough to suggest they will play again, should the depth players, let alone the best 22 get back on the park. Which is fine, they are what they are, and I am not being critical of them, Okeefe and Aussie have both had a very tough injury path to travel but if we need to rely on them for long then we, as any club would be, are in trouble. Thankfully we dont have to. Put one into a strong team, and we can nurse them through, but all of them at once, nup, no surprises happened today. I am disappointed as I am with any loss, but I understand why it happened.

A bit of perspective I think.

Hit the nail right on the head.

Today we finally ran out of 'foot soldiers'. We have done well to cover the loss of important players due to injury in recent weeks, but the players added to the injury list in the last week finally hurt us.

If, as suggested during today's commentary, we can bring Laidler & Duigan back in next week, hopefully along with Robbo, Curnow & Waite, we will perform much better. The presence of O'hAilpin wouldn't hurt either.

To those posters who have criticised Thornton again this week. How about playing a different tune? His game today, along with what he has produced over the last 4-6 weeks, puts him well ahead of those players who would be challenging for his position in the team i.e. Bower, Austin & Watson. T-bird's coolness in defence today prevented a 10 goal+ blowout (& that is factoring in the Eagles' poor kicking for goal)

 

[TheRedPill]

I was there and was pretty disappointed, but it's not the end of the world. The consensus 2 months ago was that if we could win most of our games up until now we'd be in a good position, and that an "unexpected" loss here and there was to be expected. We have done exactly that, and had an honourable loss against a rampant West Coast outfit essentially without several of our first-choice big men: Jamison, Waite, Hampson and (when fit & in form) Bower. West Coast's strength is obviously their big guys being very mobile & versatile - Darling, Lynch, Kennedy, Naitanui, Cox, Glass, Mackenzie, Schofield are all big and capable of taking grabs & moving around the ground. So in that sense, our tall stocks were as depleted as they'd been all year, and we were up against just about the best group of talls we've faced all year.

One thing I didn't like was the lack of intensity. Forward press? Fanatical chasing, tackling, harassing, pressuring? Not there, except for a few brief instances. What has made us such a worthy opponent this year was our consistency of effort. Always running, always pressuring, always doing the hard stuff, allowing us to smother opposition forays and run over them. Completely lacking.

From what I can gather (briefly) looking at responses people haven't been too overboard with responses thankfully - and I don't think this lessens my belief in our side. We're still a young side and it takes time for these processes and game styles to become truly entrenched. A loss like this will bring our heads back from the clouds and teach us a very poignant lesson - winning requires knuckling down and working hard, and doing it consistently.

Some players I was not overjoyed with... Carrazzo. He has been good this year and is important because of his mature body, but I don't rate his disposal at all and he cannot be seen as anything other than a filler while our younger players are blooded and learn the ropes. Really a non-weapon.

Warnock - how weak can one guy be? I know he's tall and is coming back from a layoff, but he was really bad today. He gets pushed out of contests with a crazy amount of ease. I'm not a buff guy, but I reckon I would beat him in any number of tests of strength eg arm wrestle, thumb war, Greco Roman wrestling bout to the death. Disposal is OKish but doesn't seem quick enough dropping the ball from 80 metres high every time. These past few weeks have really made me of the opinion that Hampson is our #1 ruck option over Warnock. He has time to prove himself but that's my gut feel at the minute. Doesn't look to have bulked up.

Thornton. I know, he's a whipping boy. But as in the case of Carrazzo, he's purely a stop-gap proposition at the moment. Not sure he's going to cut the mustard when we start hitting our straps. Once players get fit, will be in trouble.

Houlihan I have my doubts about but knowing some of his capabilities and considering his injury troubles, am willing to give him the benefit. He actually was ok (from what I could tell anyway, didn't have the best view) BUT this is a general feeling I've had for a few weeks, his laconic style and lack of hardness worry me - they simply do not accommodate our new feverish game plan that requires 100% commitment to hitting the contest hard and chasing like a maniac. Can kick a ball though!

Overall not too many negatives, as I think we played ok in patches and just suffered a lapse in application. Inconsistency (though to a lesser degree than previous years) is perfectly understandable. Everyone has to get off Henderson's back also. JK was equally, if not more so, unimpressive when he was younger. It takes time and patience in the seniors to adapt to the tempo as a young, physically immature KPP and giving him games will help him identify areas to improve and give him confidence in his ability. I laugh also because I know in a year or two's time, the many people bagging him will be cheering him on as though nothing happened. People need to remember lessons we've learned about giving players time to prove themselves.

 

[The Magenius]

He shouldn't go for either. The first was an attempted shepard that slipped high. He did exactly the same thing in the 2nd quarter except the contact was to the chest.

Lynch is a very clean player, there was nothing malicious in the incidents, he may go but to suggest anything was deliberate or malicious from him is misguided.

I don't think he has been suspended before in a few hundred games.

 

[40yearBLUE]

From what I can gather (briefly) looking at responses people haven't been too overboard with responses thankfully

So feel free to go completely overboard with your response then

 

[thylacine60]

Neither was Selwood.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Not sure the MRP will see it that way.

Reckless/intentional

You're kidding right?

The elbow to the head whilst crude was nought more than an attempt to shepherd go wrong

Will get cited - but intentional is laughable

 

[blues4flag]

Some players I was not overjoyed with... Carrazzo. He has been good this year and is important because of his mature body, but I don't rate his disposal at all and he cannot be seen as anything other than a filler while our younger players are blooded and learn the ropes. Really a non-weapon.

Very harshly judged is Carrazzo. He's not in the side for his disposal. He's the best role player in the team alongside Gibbs - give him a job to do and he'll do it 9 times out of 10. Keeps his opponent quiet while racking it up himself as a linkman.

HOWEVER, had his fair share of clangers going inside 50 today. Such as popping up the ball above Betts when he had his opponent and Cox to contend with. As well as trying to take on a player when coming out off defence and getting done for holding the ball.

He's got a spot in the team when he plays to his strengths but he's got to know his limitations. Generally does and as such makes little clangers while not being overly effective with the footy but was a little clumsy today.

 

[thylacine60]

Of all the boards I have visited pre-match this year, this one was by far the most arrogant. We deserved a little respect from where we have come this year and none was given on here, and probably similarly on the ground today and therefore you got pantsed.

BTW...Now you know we're coming.

Keep coming - next time something closer to our best 22 will be waiting.

 

[TheRedPill]

So feel free to go completely overboard with your response then

Pics or it didn't happen. Seriously though, how is that overboard? It hasn't changed my thoughts about where we are as a side. A few players who I think will be surpassed by some young guys eventually as a result of a few short comings.

Very harshly judged is Carrazzo. He's not in the side for his disposal. He's the best role player in the team alongside Gibbs - give him a job to do and he'll do it 9 times out of 10. Keeps his opponent quiet while racking it up himself as a linkman.

HOWEVER, had his fair share of clangers going inside 50 today. Such as popping up the ball above Betts when he had his opponent and Cox to contend with. As well as trying to take on a player when coming out off defence and getting done for holding the ball.

He's got a spot in the team when he plays to his strengths but he's got to know his limitations. Generally does and as such makes little clangers while not being overly effective with the footy but was a little clumsy today.

I think this sums it up. He is effective at fulfilling his role. It's just heart-in-mouth stuff when he's kicking sometimes - like you said, knowing his role and his capabilities and sticking within them is crucial. He has actually been pretty good in that regard this year.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

To quote Paul Keating, the recession we had to have.
Let's hope it's all packed away quickly - Richmond could be a tough game.

 

[iRemember87]

Today is a good opportunity to go back and reassess our gaps and waeknesses.

We were overran but a team who wanted the contest more.

We went tall to match their height and it killed us.

I felt not enough players wanted the contest today, not enough people putting their body on the line, a lot not going hard enough....we really missed Robbo today.

Maybe its just sore and tired bodies after a very good couple of months.

Take into account who we had out today, and the injuries we copped, so may players limping around after half time and they had to battle through.

The upside is we are still 4th, still have many handy players to come back, Waite, Robbo, Bower, Curnow, Duigan, Laidler, Irish....all of which strighten us up, and most of them are our tougher players.

I wasn't happy with some of the players today, i think they rolled over to easy and in the 4th we were only 4 goals down with 20 minutes to go and we just didn't seem to want it, apart from a few players.

We get to turn it all around next week.

 

[gbatman]

Too late mate, its already out there, we can all read what you wrote. I understand you dont like to be pulled up on it, but if you dont want your posts critiqued dont post.

You say you have no problem with Carrots but when better options come along.....what better options, which gun is Carrots holding out......there is no better option (except in your mind and those of the haters, has played every game this year and rightly so) and you didnt seem to think there was some "better option" while we were winning, which made me think it was a knee jerk reaction, but I could be wrong, you could just be a closet hater in denial.....whatever mate, I dont care. BTW, Carrots was also far from our worst today and is in no danger whatsoever of being dropped on today's game, not by those that watch with no predisposition that is.

We miss Waite as a marking big forward, no-one disputes that, when he comes in, Kruze will do just fine all over the ground, and drift forward as a dangerous marking option. He had a massive game last week, was far from our worst today so you do yourself a disservice even mentioning him.

The rest of your post was stating the obvious. Not sure about AJ not being selected was a mistake that you imply, not sure because I dont know that he has earned a call up. I understand Okeefe, Army and Aussie did, but didnt grasp their chance. Bit tough on them, to come in when the rest of the team also has a down day, but they didnt set the world on fire in a losing team, and once the injured players they replaced are fit, they go back down. So like I said, not much else in your post was either a revelation or in dispute. So what exactly was the point of your post if not to sink a slipper into Carrots and to have a whinge about a player that was close to if not BOG last week, and had a down day, 3 games back after a year out.

Like I said, poor form mate. Thats my constructive criticism of your post. Suck it up and come out a better poster next week.

You don't understand the concept of constructive criticism compared to "bagging" or "slipping the slipper in". It's not a whinge. I'm completly aware that Kreuzer was awesome last week and struggled a bit this week. I'm not saying that he's shit or should be out (which is crazy), but that is an example of unconstructive criticism or "bagging". The last thing i am doing is Bagging Kreuzer, jeez. I've highlighted an area of their game where he's struggling to discuss it. Knowing Kreuzer he will improve this area of his game and it will be a joy to watch and discuss as the weeks roll on.

Any how, at the start of the season while we were winning Houlihan was not fit and building up to AFL. All of a sudden he is fit and starting to show form and Touhy has poped up in the mean time and really looks like he belongs. He's only getting better. This and there are 5-6 good quality regular senior players up for selection this week. So who misses out?
I had a look at it and thought it would come down to a number of things: Touhy is dropped; Houlihan is dropped; Carrazzo is dropped; Ellard is dropped. None of these options seem good. Or perhaps one of Laidler, Duigan, Waite, Robinson or Curnow does not make selection. I dunno about you but I rate these guys pretty highly. Someone is going to be unlucky. Someone who is plying decent footy is going to make way. I know Ellard had a dog of a day but his hardness and inside work has been valuable. None of these guys are playing bad or deserve to be droppe but a decision has to be made. I'm not sure where Houlihan is with his fitness but there's a good chance he'd be more damaging offencively in Carrazzo's role. Maybe not, Carrazzo is probably able to cover more distance and do a better defencive job. Honestly I've been happy with the job that Carrazzo has been doing but you can only play 22.

Any way I came up with this for a team, you do better.

B: Duigan Jamison Laidler
HB: Yarran Thornton Russell
C: Gibbs Judd Simpson
HF: Garlett Waite Scotland
F: Walker O'hAilpin Betts
OB: Kreuzer Murphy Robinson
IC: Curnow Ellard Houlihan Touhy

As for saying Joseph should have played, the reason was that we lost Curnow and Robinson who are very good inside ball winners. we got slaughtered in this area which highlighted their importance. I don't think we selected players to replace them. If we had, Joseph, Mclean and/or Cachia would have made an appearance. I think we got our structure wrong here.

It's not that i don't like to be pulled up on things. I just like discussing footy and this seems like the right place to do it. Always good to hear different opinions, that's what makes footy forums tick.

 

[Nerv_01]

Disagree.

If we are talking about what if's, what if we had kicked straight (the way we often do). Would have been a 10 goal win.

Its hard to know. Waters definitely is. I reckon Gaff or Stevens would be better ins than Ebert (though he played ok).

Regardless it is all academic but would love to see it. The fact we are also debating it about a matchup at Etihad and not Subi I think is a great representation of the improvement WC have made.

Well i guess we cant agree on this, I am of the opinion that if we had played the way we did against geelong or sydney last week we would have beaten you. As you said these are what ifs. I really cant see todays game as definitive proof you are better than us. We played poorly today and were punished accordingly (as we would have been against sydney last week) just remember your game against collingwood in comparison to ours.

 

[gbatman]

I think Carlton will beat WCE when we are not resting half the side. I'm glad we are doing this, it's good management and might reset us for the rest of the season.

Considering how many we had out it is amazing how well we did today. I just hope Jamison is fit although the doggies haven't got a lot of quality tall timber so resting him might be wise. There is a bigger picture at the end of the season.

 

[Wickzki]

Seriously, if there was a week where the AFL could have handed out a hundred free kicks against a side it was this one against the Eagles.

Dirty rotten football team relying more on thuggery than skills. They'll have their wings clipped soon enough.

I hope both Cox and Lynch enjoy their month off.

 

[Trebor57]

lets get real. We were missing Curnow, Waite, Duigan, Robinson, Hampson.

Then Jamo went down.

I mean what do you expect. They were playing their perfect 'A' team!

But we still could of won - bloody ********s![/quote]

Fair enough you had a lot of injuries, but you lost by 6 goals, and if the Eagles had kicked straight from the numerous set shots they had in the first half, you'd have been a lot further behind at half time.

 

[ScarfacePacino]

Game was lost at the selection table. Not sure if I heard this right but apparently Duigan, Waite and Laidler all could have played correct?

That is where we fell down, Jamison has been carrying foot problems for two weeks now and that oversight was self destructive. With him down we were forced to use Thornton as our main defender, while I love T-Bird he was put into a spot that he was incapable of completely delivering in on.

Austin is gone, he's not a scapegoat for today but surely has done nothing in four years at Carlton and really needs to be sent packing. Why wasn't Watson considered? I don't care if we play and 18 or 19 year old and they don't dominate his opponenet but it looked like we went back to years past where we had no defense whatsoever.

Positive were Betts and Garlett combined for 5 goals, which means they did what they were supposed to do together.

It was lost at the selection table again, the first real slip up from that standpoint this year.

This is and should remain the worst loss we have for the year. I'm not prepared to accept this display again, the list has progressed way to far now to go backwards.

I agree on Matthew Watson we needed a Bower or Watson. I don't get why we choose a player like Watson and not give him games especially if we have key tall players out, why not choose Darling who can play in the draft then. The guy is our future has a great kick takes a good mark he isn't quick but did ok in the games he played and plays hard.

We had to look at our player that possibly will not be taken by another club as he hasn't really done anything in any game.

 

[ScarfacePacino]

May be true, who knows. And if true, who knows if, in the bigger picture it was a mistake? I had that feeling. I felt we seemed to be "resting" players and expecting our form would carry us....but this is one of those questions that hindsight could provide a really different answer. Could. Not will, could.

Lets say for a moment that there were signs, niggles, fatigue, etc that got the coaching crew thinking, for us to have an impact in the finals, we really need our best 22 fit and firing. And its a long hard season. We cant afford the sort of outs we had today going into a final. So we manage some players through the year...take a look at the players being managed....Robbo a kamikaze whos body must be feeling the effects of his game style, Duigan, although he has a mature body, he is still brand new to the pace and rigours of AFL and Curnow, also a first year player taken slightly older than the usual rookie. Waite and Laidler have had genuine niggles but better to get them 100% right and fit and firing come finals than to risk them mid season and lose them by bringing them back too early.

So say they make a considered decision bearing in mind they risked and it transpired we could or would lose a game. And we finish top 4 but with the majority of the list cherry ripe and we tear it up in Sept......how would you feel about it then?

I hate to see us lose, but nowhere near as much as I hate to see us lose finals. Could be a good loss if you know what I mean.

We need to make top 4 or Ratten possibly gone. There a good chance we lose the only final if we come up against the old St Kilda or even Bulldogs if they both scrape in the 8 or Freo or Sydney best come to play final times. The eagles will win most games if not all at home.

 

[Krooooze]

Seriously some of our supporters on here are pathetic, blaming injuries for our loss. It's as if we are the only team that gets injuries.

Let's face it, we were def down on man power but there's no substitute for effort, and the effort wasn't there in this game aside from a 10min burst in the 3rd qtr, whereas WCE were on the top of their game for the whole match and beat us in all facets.

Mentioning the players we were missing is a terrible cop-out for a really poor performance

We will rebound and will learn from this loss.

 

[Stamos]

what more proof do you need your home ground /crowd ,the reason you played poorly was because we beat you all over the ground when we let the pressure off in the 3rd q look what happened.carlton were surging and running riot ,so back on with the pressure and we kicked away again.

Maybe we got lucky that carlton had made changes and didn`t really rate us well it happens .A major win for you was the free kick count 23 to our 13 with 3 50`s for carlton as well , in some games this can have a big impact .
good luck with next week

The free kick count was a massive win to the Eagles, considering how often they infringed and were not penalised. The tactics all day were to hold Judd and Murphy when they didn't have the ball, and this was hardly paid. You also kicked 2 goals that came directly from throws.

West Coast played well, but Carlton were clearly flat from the first minute. If you want to believe that this was purely due to your good play, go ahead, good luck with that.

 

[setanta17]

OK, Robert Warnock.
I was absolutely disgusted with his performance today.
Hampson has been really energetic, giving us a good contest in the ruck, second efforts etc, taking some marks around the ground and this has paid of on the scoreboards.

Today, Warnock, I know he won a few hitouts, but did not see ONE actually go to advantage. In addition, he gives us absolutely nothing around the grounds. Cannot recall him taking a mark or even effecting a bloody contest. When he went forward, he looks so slow with very poor agility.
I don't know what you guys thought of his efforts today, but I really don't think that he got the job done.

The only players I commend for today are Murphy, Garlett and Yarran who I thought all had a good crack. Tuohy also had a few good moments and it seemed, he was the only defender who was winning 1 on 1 battles.
I know Austin was pathetic in the forward line but we need to cut him some slack. He has been playing in the backline for the Bullants and doing a good job, hence his inclusion and then due to injuries, he is forced to go up forward- playing completely out of position!
I do not understand why Thornton was not thrown forward as he actually has proven he can play in the forward line and earlier in the year he kicked a few bags.

 

[Krooooze]

OK, Robert Warnock.
I was absolutely disgusted with his performance today.
Hampson has been really energetic, giving us a good contest in the ruck, second efforts etc, taking some marks around the ground and this has paid of on the scoreboards.

Today, Warnock, I know he won a few hitouts, but did not see ONE actually go to advantage. In addition, he gives us absolutely nothing around the grounds. Cannot recall him taking a mark or even effecting a bloody contest. When he went forward, he looks so slow with very poor agility.
I don't know what you guys thought of his efforts today, but I really don't think that he got the job done.

The only players I commend for today are Murphy, Garlett and Yarran who I thought all had a good crack. Tuohy also had a few good moments and it seemed, he was the only defender who was winning 1 on 1 battles.
I know Austin was pathetic in the forward line but we need to cut him some slack. He has been playing in the backline for the Bullants and doing a good job, hence his inclusion and then due to injuries, he is forced to go up forward- playing completely out of position!
I do not understand why Thornton was not thrown forward as he actually has proven he can play in the forward line and earlier in the year he kicked a few bags.

I think you should pay a bit of homage to Scotto, he was superb today and tried valiantly, but didn't have enough mates. Murph, Yazza and Garlo were the only other players who could hold their heads high.

You're right about Warnock, he just hasn't been competing hard enough this year. I don't care how good WCE rucks are, if the effort is there it will go a long way to curtailing their influence, and he just wasn't good enough. Can't rely on Krueze to do all the competing coming off a knee reco. We really did miss Hammer and his ability to compete.

 

[jesterwester]

I haven't come here to gloat, (you're more than welcome to tell me where to go) I quite enjoyed the game as a spectacle for the first three quarters (the last kinda fizzled out a bit), was played at a very high intensity, and I think had you guys played Waite & Robinson, this game may have been an epic. Just a couple of quick questions though, I do have a liking to watching the blues this year, you're exciting, you've got a good mix. Was looking today, and thought on the whole, you guys looked a bit tired. Have you had a few big weeks on the track? It just seems you guys were flat, and no doubt next week you get the chance to arrest that. Best of luck for the rest of the year. Here's hoping we both knock the hawks out of the top 4.