Autopsy The Luke Beveridges coaching idiocy throws away the game thread.

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bresker

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Deep down, this just tells us that Beveridge does not believe the list available to him now is good enough. Trouble is the team he fields each week, deep down, would also know that Beveridge does not think they are good enough. And that is the bigger problem.
What year is he coaching for? 2021? 2022? The next coach who comes after him...?

We cannot sacrifice a whole squad for Tim English 2023, not to mention the revolving door of 'development' players, several of whom won't make it past their current contracts.

We could make a deep finals run with this list, I wonder if Bev has lost belief in himself.
 

Glaeken Oracle

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As a supporter I don't have all the facts and know the ins and outs of the club, nor do I claim to. All I can say through the supporter's eye is that the downfall after 2016 is very reminiscent to our downfall after 1954. I was not alive in that period but I do have many relatives that were alive during that period and have described what happened. It's made me come to the conclusion that we cannot handle success.

We talk about how good our list and club management is, yet we have a whole lot of plodders on this list. I won't go into full detail to spare you a boring reading, plus each player on our list has already been analysed to death on here. The talent that we do have on our list, my pessimism says we will find a way to stuff them up. Everyone's expects JUH to be a saving grace, but the problems lie deeper than just a missing forward.

Put simply, it seems our coach has no faith in some players. Heck, he's even said that we are going to lose the ruck contests so why compete in that area. English has not set the world on fire and gets smashed by competent rucks. The worrying thing is Beveridge has said that Sweet is not yet up to AFL standard, so that makes you think geez he must be terrible if he can't even get a game over English.

Couple this with the other selection issues such as selecting non AFL-standard players such as Gardner and playing favourites, you have a selection debacle.

We praise our recruiting for what talent they've managed to get, well I don't see the praise. We recruit Keath in the off season who has been very solid and I would say has only been beaten once with that being against Richmond, though he had bugger all support that game. Our other recruit was Bruce who has dished up absolute crap this year, clearly Saints knew more than us and our recruiters didn't do their homework.

We've also recruited players through the draft over the past few years such as Naughton, Richards etc with some talent for sure, but a lot have not lived up to their expectations. We also go out and recruit Lloyd, while Saints go and nab Butler. So we get 1 good player out of 20 and we call that a win right?

Development is also a shipwreck. Many of our players, even seniors, have gone backwards and/or have not obtained a hard edge. JJs gone backwards, Richards backwards, Lynch, Lipinski, Dale, McLean, and others, all backwards.

I get that we lost M.Boyd, Picken, Murphy, Morris but we've had 4 years, 4 trade periods and 4 drafts and have gone backwards. It is depressing to see all this unfold and try to stay optimistic.
54 and the aftermath was interesting in hindsight.

Angus Abbey retired after the Grand Final win, but his career had probably peaked anyway, and only managed 8 late games in 54, including the 2 finals.
(At least we got son Ross as a father-son, well done Angus.)
Martin accepted a huge offer to coach and play in the country at 26yo, when he was an integral part of the backline. I believe in later years he regretted his decision, but players in that era could earn far more in lower leagues, and they had families to consider.

But we still had 18 premiership players on our list in 1955.

19yo McCarthy fell off a cliff playing 6 games in 55, 1 in 56, then career over.

Every other player was still on the list for at least another 2 years, many until at least 58.

1955 we missed the finals by 0.6% after beating North by 10 goals in the last game, but losing R6 by 8 points, R13 by 9 points, and R16 by 3 points.

1956 we finished 4th, beat our later nemesis the Cats in the semi, and were close with Pies in the prelim until half time but were over-run in the second half.
(We were 1-1 with eventual premiers Melbourne during the season too, and seemed to match up well against them in that era, same with Cats.)

1957 we finished 6th, and had an average season, after 23yo Whitten replaced Sutton as coach during the season.

1958, with 12 of our 54 flag side still on the list, plus youngsters like Schultz, Jillard, Gardiner, Hoiles, G.Ion, Lee, Quarrell and Spargo coming through (who would all play in the 61 GF side), we finished second last. In fact round 1, 1958, we had 11 premiership players in the team at home to the Pies, and lost by 9 goals. Bizarrely we had a % of 97.3, 6th best. In fact, Cats in last place had a % of 73.8, and North in 4th had 92.7%, the only one of the top 6 with a % below 109! By the last round, we only had 6 premiership players in the team, and started 1959 with only Edwards, Gallagher and Whitten still a the club.

As for the flag side:
Abbey's last game was in the 1954 GF at 28yo.
Box finished in 1957 ay 25yo.
Bryden 1955, 28
Collins 1958, 28
Donald 1958, 30
Duffy 1958, 26
Edwards 1960, 26
Gallagher 1960, 29
Gilmore 1958, almost 25
Henderson 1958, almost 28
Kerr 1958, 24 (1 game late in 58 at Melbourne)
Martin 1954, 26
McCarthy 1956, 21
Nuttall 1955, 26
Reynolds 1958, 23 (then 2 season at Richmond)
Ross 1958, 24
Stevens 1957, 27
Stockman 1958, 23 (3 more seasons at South)
Sutton early 1956, 32
Whitten 1970, almost 37

Different era, lots of gun players took bigger money elsewhere at younger ages, or retired for business like Collins, but imagine if Martin had stayed, and we got more years out of Box, Duffy. Edwards, Gilmore, Kerr, Reynolds, Ross and Stockman, even another year or two out of Bryden, Collins, Henderson and Stevens. (Of course Box left because of Whitten, and allegedly some others weren't happy or were asked to leave, so maybe you're right and we don't handle success well. (I've been trying to work and write this post at the same time over about an hour, and I think I've forgotten where I was going with it - probably that I hope this era isn't a repeat of the mid-late 50s!)
 

dogwatch

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As a supporter I don't have all the facts and know the ins and outs of the club, nor do I claim to. All I can say through the supporter's eye is that the downfall after 2016 is very reminiscent to our downfall after 1954. I was not alive in that period but I do have many relatives that were alive during that period and have described what happened. It's made me come to the conclusion that we cannot handle success.

We talk about how good our list and club management is, yet we have a whole lot of plodders on this list. I won't go into full detail to spare you a boring reading, plus each player on our list has already been analysed to death on here. The talent that we do have on our list, my pessimism says we will find a way to stuff them up. Everyone's expects JUH to be a saving grace, but the problems lie deeper than just a missing forward.

Put simply, it seems our coach has no faith in some players. Heck, he's even said that we are going to lose the ruck contests so why compete in that area. English has not set the world on fire and gets smashed by competent rucks. The worrying thing is Beveridge has said that Sweet is not yet up to AFL standard, so that makes you think geez he must be terrible if he can't even get a game over English.

Couple this with the other selection issues such as selecting non AFL-standard players such as Gardner and playing favourites, you have a selection debacle.

We praise our recruiting for what talent they've managed to get, well I don't see the praise. We recruit Keath in the off season who has been very solid and I would say has only been beaten once with that being against Richmond, though he had bugger all support that game. Our other recruit was Bruce who has dished up absolute crap this year, clearly Saints knew more than us and our recruiters didn't do their homework.

We've also recruited players through the draft over the past few years such as Naughton, Richards etc with some talent for sure, but a lot have not lived up to their expectations. We also go out and recruit Lloyd, while Saints go and nab Butler. So we get 1 good player out of 20 and we call that a win right?

Development is also a shipwreck. Many of our players, even seniors, have gone backwards and/or have not obtained a hard edge. JJs gone backwards, Richards backwards, Lynch, Lipinski, Dale, McLean, and others, all backwards.

I get that we lost M.Boyd, Picken, Murphy, Morris but we've had 4 years, 4 trade periods and 4 drafts and have gone backwards. It is depressing to see all this unfold and try to stay optimistic.
As I said elsewhere we can't allow ourselves to be defined by what happened in the 50s or even the last four seasons. To say we can't handle success is defeatist even if it does describe accurately what happened on one or both of those occasions.

If Hawthorn took that attitude in the 1950s they wouldn't even exist now. Instead they adopted a ruthless uncompromising drive to be winners and they became the most successful club over the next 60 years. You have to admire them over the journey. They now are one of the genuine powerhouse clubs of the league. There is no reason why we (or Norf or St Kilda) can't do the same thing. It requires the right people, the right attitude and a lot of diligence, integrity and hard work. Notice I didn't say a lot of luck. In the long term the luck evens out as long as you have the other ingredients.

On the players who have "gone backwards" we need to remember that a lot of players on every club's list simply don't make the grade. It should come as no shock to find that maybe 10 on our list have no real future at AFL level. That's how the footy machine works, it chews 'em up and spits 'em out with no career.

I empathise with a lot of your rant though. I'm feeling frustrated too. And I agree - if we think JUH is going to solve everything and pave our way to a grand final we are setting both him and the club up for failure. He is only a small (but welcome) part of the picture.
 

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Charlie Bucket

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I am taking a glass half full approach. We have issues but they can be resolved. We are not as far off the pace as it seems.
Spot on Philthy, we’re only a little way off beating the better sides in the comp.
Consistency in performance this season has been out of whack compared to others.
Not just game to game but qtr to qtr, which is hard to swallow, watching as a supporter. Probably why so many in here melt and want the coach sacked every second week.

We’ve kind of become flat track bully’s. Beating up on sides that give little resistance but we turn to water ourselves when the pressures turned up. We’re a bit soft between the ears atm. Our good footy is up their, we just let go of the reigns when it gets a little bumpy.
I think Bev needs to give them the old “fu**en harden up”

As you mentioned, there’s a few issues, but most can be ironed out by next season.
 
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Glaeken Oracle

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Spot on Philthy, we’re only a little way off beating the better sides in the comp.
Consistency in performance this season has been out of whack compared to others.
Not just game to game but qtr to qtr, which is hard to swallow, watching as a supporter. Probably why so many in here melt and want the coach sacked every second week.

We’ve kind of become flat track bully’s. Beating up on sides that give little resistance but we turn to water ourselves when the pressures turned up. We’re a bit soft between the ears atm. Our good footy is up their, we just let go of the reigns when it gets a little bumpy.
I think Bev needs to give them the old “fu**en harden up”

As you mentioned, there’s a few issues, but most can be ironed out by next season.
I've moved on from wanting the coach sacked every second week Charlie Bucket. I'm now up to every second day, but I'm trying to give up.

(Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit calling for the coach to be sacked though!)
 

Dogs 13

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Ok, so who asked Robbo this in today's paper and why does he seem surprised ? Anyone on here could give him a list as long as your arm.

Larry: How about someone calling out Luke Beveridge on his horrible match committee selection that has completely derailed the Dogs’ season. He’s losing all Dogs fans very quickly.

Robbo: Is he really? And which ‘selection’ are you referring to? Write back next week, Larry.


Larry should just tell him to read Big Footy, there's no secrets as to what many Dog's supporters are unhappy about.
 

badkicking

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Ok, so who asked Robbo this in today's paper and why does he seem surprised ? Anyone on here could give him a list as long as your arm.

Larry: How about someone calling out Luke Beveridge on his horrible match committee selection that has completely derailed the Dogs’ season. He’s losing all Dogs fans very quickly.

Robbo: Is he really? And which ‘selection’ are you referring to? Write back next week, Larry.


Larry should just tell him to read Big Footy, there's no secrets as to what many Dog's supporters are unhappy about.
Another match committee decision I struggle with is letting Jordan Roughead go, and watch him playing in a key defensive post for Collingwood, given a choice of Ryan Gardner or Jordan Roughead, I know which decision I would make.
 

Virgin Dog

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Ok, so who asked Robbo this in today's paper and why does he seem surprised ? Anyone on here could give him a list as long as your arm.

Larry: How about someone calling out Luke Beveridge on his horrible match committee selection that has completely derailed the Dogs’ season. He’s losing all Dogs fans very quickly.

Robbo: Is he really? And which ‘selection’ are you referring to? Write back next week, Larry.


Larry should just tell him to read Big Footy, there's no secrets as to what many Dog's supporters are unhappy about.
You need to understand that the <50 users who post here regularly having melts over match selection do not represent the entire Dogs fan base. Just like the Facebook groups don't. Just like the Reddit pages don't. Just like WOOF doesn't.

The average footy fan doesn't use social media to actively discuss their team. Many fans are happy to go along and watch. Larry suggesting Bevo is "losing all Dogs fans very quickly" is just pure nuffy material
 

Dogs 13

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You need to understand that the <50 users who post here regularly having melts over match selection do not represent the entire Dogs fan base. Just like the Facebook groups don't. Just like the Reddit pages don't. Just like WOOF doesn't.

The average footy fan doesn't use social media to actively discuss their team. Many fans are happy to go along and watch. Larry suggesting Bevo is "losing all Dogs fans very quickly" is just pure nuffy material
I was focusing on the horrible match committee selections part of the question. It's already well documented what almost every Dogs' supporter is unhappy about except for those company line, the club can do no wrong types.
 

Virgin Dog

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I was focusing on the horrible match committee selections part of the question. It's already well documented what almost every Dogs' supporter is unhappy about except for those company line, the club can do no wrong types.
Is it? Where?

According to a Roy Morgan survey in 2019, we had 279,000 supporters. Can you please show me where it's well documented that "almost every" one of those 279,000 people are unhappy with match selections? I could count maybe 20-30 on this board, but what about the other ~278,970?
 

immortalmike

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You need to understand that the <50 users who post here regularly having melts over match selection do not represent the entire Dogs fan base. Just like the Facebook groups don't. Just like the Reddit pages don't. Just like WOOF doesn't.

The average footy fan doesn't use social media to actively discuss their team. Many fans are happy to go along and watch. Larry suggesting Bevo is "losing all Dogs fans very quickly" is just pure nuffy material
You don't go to many games do you?
 

compact72

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Bruce is a good example. Baffles everybody

Friends have asked me why he's still in the team, at the game, people are confused why Bruce is in
 

Virgin Dog

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You don't go to many games do you?
So the few people you surround yourself with represent the wider supporter base?

That is akin to thinking that because your neighbours dislike tomatoes, all Australians must dislike tomatoes. There are hundreds of thousands of fans with individual thought patterns, who are in no way represented by the people here or the people who sit near you at a game.

If we're going to throw anecdotes out, I know a number of Dogs fans in real life who love every player being picked in our side - including a number of Gowers and Gardner fans. Why are their opinions worth less than yours, and why do they not represent the majority of Dogs supporters?
 

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Dogs 13

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You need to understand that the <50 users who post here regularly having melts over match selection do not represent the entire Dogs fan base. Just like the Facebook groups don't. Just like the Reddit pages don't. Just like WOOF doesn't.

The average footy fan doesn't use social media to actively discuss their team. Many fans are happy to go along and watch. Larry suggesting Bevo is "losing all Dogs fans very quickly" is just pure nuffy material
And the predictable 3 first liked this 🌈🦄
 

Mr. Walker

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Ok, so who asked Robbo this in today's paper and why does he seem surprised ? Anyone on here could give him a list as long as your arm.

Larry: How about someone calling out Luke Beveridge on his horrible match committee selection that has completely derailed the Dogs’ season. He’s losing all Dogs fans very quickly.

Robbo: Is he really? And which ‘selection’ are you referring to? Write back next week, Larry.


Larry should just tell him to read Big Footy, there's no secrets as to what many Dog's supporters are unhappy about.
Great work by Robbo - “answer” the question not with an answer but with another question. Glad Robbo cleared it up for Larry.
 

Dogs 13

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Is it? Where?

According to a Roy Morgan survey in 2019, we had 279,000 supporters. Can you please show me where it's well documented that "almost every" one of those 279,000 people are unhappy with match selections? I could count maybe 20-30 on this board, but what about the other ~278,970?
It doesn't matter to me what those casual supporters think about selections, only members are entitled to have any say.
 

DelRe

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Not sure where this fits, but Bevo has been incredibly unlucky with the loss of Boyd. True he had the good fortune of the game he played in the GF but he also had the torment of prob thinking he had a solid winning structure developing - can you imagine a spine with Keath, Naughton, English and Boyd - and has seemingly been in search of the second fiddle, mobile ruck that he seems to think is the winning formula ever since, but also prob lost 4 years in the hope he may come back from illness but prob knowing he wouldn’t and couldn’t do much about it.

Personal view but I think Bruce will be the closest to filling that role and hasn’t been nearly as bad as gets suggested on this board and don’t think he’ll get dropped as a result.
 

Charlie Bucket

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I was focusing on the horrible match committee selections part of the question. It's already well documented what almost every Dogs' supporter is unhappy about except for those company line, the club can do no wrong types.
Why do we have to be one or the other? Can’t we be unhappy with some decisions the club makes but still be confident and upbeat with where we are at, while not demanding drastic changes like giving the coach the arse?

The issue is that yourself and plenty of others give no thought to the fact that all clubs that aren’t winning the premiership are doing a lot wrong. All clubs have selection headaches, they have players that aren’t performing, they have players in the 22 that possibly shouldn’t be there and players playing 2’s that need to pull their finger out and they have results that are influenced by errors in both player and coach performance.

We’ve got a good young list, a premiership coach who’s also won the coaches association coach of the year award, twice (something a few armchair coaching experts in here forget), an age demographic that suggests we’re a few years off being a genuine year on year threat and even then, we’re still there abouts.

If we’re in this situation, floating outside the 8, end of 2021/22 I’d be a little more worried. We’ve got a lot to be happy about currently imo


A question for you Dogs13 and anyone else who’s keen to answer it...

Say we sack Bevo next week. What happens then? Who comes in as head coach? What happens to the list that’s currently playing under Bev? How many years will it take for the new coach to get us around the mark?
What changes do we 100% know will be made by the new coach moving fwd that can guarantee improved on and off field performance?

I’m genuinely interested in what the sack Bevo types think happens from here if we we pull the pin.
 

Dogs 13

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Why do we have to be one or the other? Can’t we be unhappy with some decisions the club makes but still be confident and upbeat with where we are at, while not demanding drastic changes like giving the coach the arse?

The issue is that yourself and plenty of others give no thought to the fact that all clubs that aren’t winning the premiership are doing a lot wrong. All clubs have selection headaches, they have players that aren’t performing, they have players in the 22 that possibly shouldn’t be there and players playing 2’s that need to pull their finger out and they have results that are influenced by errors in both player and coach performance.

We’ve got a good young list, a premiership coach who’s also won the coaches association coach of the year award, twice (something a few armchair coaching experts in here forget), an age demographic that suggests we’re a few years off being a genuine year on year threat and even then, we’re still there abouts.

If we’re in this situation, floating outside the 8, end of 2021/22 I’d be a little more worried. We’ve got a lot to be happy about currently imo


A question for you Dogs13 and anyone else who’s keen to answer it...

Say we sack Bevo next week. What happens then? Who comes in as head coach? What happens to the list that’s currently playing under Bev? How many years will it take for the new coach to get us around the mark?
What changes do we 100% know will be made by the new coach moving fwd that can guarantee improved on and off field performance?

I’m genuinely interested in what the sack Bevo types think happens from here if we we pull the pin.
I have absolutely no desire to sack Beveridge.
 

Virgin Dog

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Not sure where this fits, but Bevo has been incredibly unlucky with the loss of Boyd. True he had the good fortune of the game he played in the GF but he also had the torment of prob thinking he had a solid winning structure developing - can you imagine a spine with Keath, Naughton, English and Boyd - and has seemingly been in search of the second fiddle, mobile ruck that he seems to think is the winning formula ever since, but also prob lost 4 years in the hope he may come back from illness but prob knowing he wouldn’t and couldn’t do much about it.

Personal view but I think Bruce will be the closest to filling that role and hasn’t been nearly as bad as gets suggested on this board and don’t think he’ll get dropped as a result.
Yeah the premature loss of Boyd really did throw a spanner in the works - we invested a massive amount into him, and can't have seen this coming.

Add to that the loss of 3rd man up, the premature retirements of Redpath and Smith, the Stringer fiasco, and it does a lot to explain how we got to where we are now. Bevo is attempting to fast track the development of certain talls (particularly English and Gardner) so of course we're going to be frustrated at times. With our current list demographic, we can't be in "win now" mode 100% of the time. We don't have a list like Richmond or West Coast, so we need to develop our players to get there. With a young 22, it's impressive that we've come this close to beating the likes of Port, Lions and Cats.

I share your opinion on Bruce too - he's been copping sh*t even when playing well. I think he'll improve out of sight next year by trimming down and returning to Marvel (if only)
 

BEaston

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You need to understand that the <50 users who post here regularly having melts over match selection do not represent the entire Dogs fan base. Just like the Facebook groups don't. Just like the Reddit pages don't. Just like WOOF doesn't.

The average footy fan doesn't use social media to actively discuss their team. Many fans are happy to go along and watch. Larry suggesting Bevo is "losing all Dogs fans very quickly" is just pure nuffy material
Just disregarding the fact that it's nowhere near a consensus on BF that it's dire times at the Dogs, even within in the group of users that are upset there's numerous different viewpoints. Just have a look at the ins/outs threads each week, there's never a consensus on anything.
We all have different views and see the game differently. To think a viewpoint is held by all (seemingly just because it's your viewpoint) is ridiculous.
 

CarnTheScray

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You need to understand that the <50 users who post here regularly having melts over match selection do not represent the entire Dogs fan base. Just like the Facebook groups don't. Just like the Reddit pages don't. Just like WOOF doesn't.

The average footy fan doesn't use social media to actively discuss their team. Many fans are happy to go along and watch. Larry suggesting Bevo is "losing all Dogs fans very quickly" is just pure nuffy material
I think he still has some merit even if he has made a generalisation. Everyone I talk to who has no clue what this forum is nor do they talk on Facebook forums and they all share similar opinions regarding the match selection. Everyone with a brain can see it. The only people who can't are the blind loyalists.
 

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