The Law The Many Problems With Our Legal System

[Gethelred]

I'm not talking about those drugs, I'm talking about the illegal hard drugs that cause people to do stupid s**t by harming others; ice, cocaine, speed, ecstasy..

All four of those are based on codine derivatives. The drug that does the highest damage in Australia is alcohol, followed by tobacco. Both of these drugs are legal.

You're focussing on the legal status of these drugs, not their effects.

If you think corruption doesn't exist in the authorities and government down there, then there is little point having this conversation, as you should educate yourself. Start with reading up on Ian Cook from I Cook Foods. His story is not drug related, but it highlights how the corrupt people in power will do whatever it takes including cover ups, to flout the law and fill their own coffers.
Knowing this behaviour goes on, it wouldn't surprise me if the authorities were using their power to benefit from the drug trade.
Heck, just this week, a political party deputy leader has had to resign because she was in a relationship with a bikie gang leader!

Yep. You're done.

You have 24 hours to produce evidence of Australian government involvement in the criminal drugs trade, retract your statement, or you will be infracted for the spreading of conspiracy theories on the SRP.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Australian justice is retributive more than rehabilitative, and I was referring to the Norweigien system as more desirable not Singapore.

Just to be clear, by this logic you are suggesting bringing back capital punishment.

Is that what you're saying?

A lot of prisoners will only do the minimum recommended courses as is required to get them paroled at the earliest, otherwise, they don't really care.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

The western world is moving away from “tough on drugs” as it’s become obvious drug abuse is a health not criminal problem.

For what would get one hanged in Singapore would see one proclaimed a successful business owner in Amsterdam.

The stats show that soft on drugs and soft on crime works to reduce crime and drug abuse. Portugal legalised all drugs 20 years ago and overdoses, infections, addiction and crime have plummeted as a result.

I never understand why people continually compare Australia to other countries when it comes to drugs. The big difference is the prevailing culture / attitude in our country.

Probably the majority of countries always mentioned when these sorts of discussions arise don't have anywhere near the drinking problem / culture that we have either, throw gambling into the mix with it too.

We continually let our children down because of this and the cycle continues.

 

[Gethelred]

A lot of prisoners will only do the minimum recommended courses as is required to get them paroled at the earliest, otherwise, they don't really care.

In the Australian system or the Noreweigian one?

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

In the Australian system or the Noreweigian one?

Australian.

 

[Partridge]

No you cannot. Punishment does nothing to fix the behaviour. It's retribution.

In one of the first criminology units I took, they gave us two case studies. The case studies were very similar; both featured a girl aged below 12 and two boys between 14-18. One of them was in America, the other in the Netherlands. The details of the cases I won't go into, but it was ******* confronting; the girl in the Netherlands was murdered as well as r*ped, where the girl in America was found afterwards.

In the first case study, the two perpetrators had their names and photographs in the papers. They both were sent to juvenile prison, then adult prison. Both went on to have further issues with the law, one of them falling into addiction and depression and the other committing suicide.

Good. I hope it was as traumatic as possible.

In the Netherlands case study, the boys were left in the community. The saw the parents of the girl the murdered, every day. They went to school, and everyone knew what they had done. They were forced to explain themselves to the parents of their victim. They were forced to confront the consequences of their actions as a part of the society. They went on to have jobs, to be a part of society, and to contribute to it.

Now, far be it from me to tell people how to react in that circumstance; if someone did that to a child of mine, I'd be looking up ideas on Jigsaw traps. But having said that, the more evolved - some would say, more ruthless - response is to force guilt upon them; to force them to confront what they did every day within the society, beside the people they wronged. They see the sadness, and know it's their fault. Placing people within an Anglocentric criminal justice system results in more criminals, and that effect multiplies when those people are young.

It comes down to why we imprison people. Do we do it to punish them, or to keep wider society safe from them?

Both. Some crimes absolutely need punishment. Those who advocate otherwise I would bet have never been a victim of crime. Some crimes you can definitely rehabilitate prisoners. For sure. But some crimes require absolutely severe punishment. To your question, I'd add a third one - what about the rights of the victim? Amazingly enough that doesn't seem to matter at all to some people. I would have thought it's more important than anything else.

 

[Partridge]

Not sure if you're having a lend, or just genuinely being obtuse.

Do you think hard drugs have helped more lives, or harmed more lives?

You could ask a follow up question.

How many parents here advise their kids that taking drugs is sensible and smart?

 

[mr bagcroft]

Let the people have their drugs if they want.
Aussies are such a bunch of pansie hypocritical ****s crapping on about drugs while downing copious beers and wines every single day.
**** off with your high and might hypocritical garbag.

 

[Gethelred]

Those who advocate otherwise I would bet have never been a victim of crime.

When you make that claim, you're using the same reasoning as 'No atheists in foxholes'. A person's opinion on justice and rehabilitation might change due to personal experience, but a person might derive different ideals from their experiences in spite of that desire for retribution.

Before you get started on your next post, I've been a victim of a crime before.

To your question, I'd add a third one - what about the rights of the victim? Amazingly enough that doesn't seem to matter at all to some people. I would have thought it's more important than anything else.

What are the rights of the victim in our society, Partridge?

 

[Fadge]

Sometimes you come across a news article and just shake your head, thinking 'How is this the case in today's day and age???'

Well today I came across this

The article speaks for itself. It is a long read, but a great read.

In short, the article discusses the trauma two young girls have been through between the time they reported to their parents that a 'family friend' was molesting them at the ages of 5 and 7, and the time the case was concluded 4 to 5 years later.

It makes many of the debates taking place on the SRP forum look ridiculously trivial, and the way the legal system continues to treat children as a result of their outdated processes and beauracracy is nothing short of disgraceful.

How does this still happen in 2022? This is but one of many problems with our ridiculously antiquated legal system.

 

[Fadge]

Good post Fadge. First time I think we’ve ever agreed.

I suspect we'll be hard pressed to find someone who disagrees with the subject matter.

 

[Sky]

I suspect we'll be hard pressed to find someone who disagrees with the subject matter.

Another great post, Fadge. You're on fire, today!

 

[Malifice]

It makes many of the debates taking place on the SRP forum look ridiculously trivial, and the way the legal system continues to treat children as a result of their outdated processes and beauracracy is nothing short of disgraceful.

Out of curiosity what would you do differently?

It seems to me to be the major cause of the delay was a juror falling asleep at the 1st trial, requiring it to be aborted, and needing to go over it all a second time.

About the only thing I can see there that needs changing (other than protecting kids during cross examination) is getting the matter to trial sooner (without prejudicing the ability of the accused to obtain due and proper legal advice and assistance). That's a benefit to everyone, including the accused.

 

[Fadge]

Out of curiosity what would you do differently?

It seems to me to be the major cause of the delay was a juror falling asleep at the 1st trial, requiring it to be aborted, and needing to go over it all a second time.

About the only thing I can see there that needs changing (other than protecting kids during cross examination) is getting the matter to trial sooner (without prejudicing the ability of the accused to obtain due and proper legal advice and assistance). That's a benefit to everyone, including the accused.

All of the above.

They're all very significant issues.

One other thing - how is it possible for them to run into the person they accused of molesting them in the foyer of the courthouse?

 

[Fadge]

Out of curiosity what would you do differently?

It seems to me to be the major cause of the delay was a juror falling asleep at the 1st trial, requiring it to be aborted, and needing to go over it all a second time.

About the only thing I can see there that needs changing (other than protecting kids during cross examination) is getting the matter to trial sooner (without prejudicing the ability of the accused to obtain due and proper legal advice and assistance). That's a benefit to everyone, including the accused.

To answer your question, news.com.au have launched a petition to expand a pilot program that has been rolled out in two NSW courts :

'to reduce the stress and difficulties placed on child victims and child witnesses without unfairly damaging the right to a fair trial for the defendant.

Measures include:

• an expansion of the use of pre-recorded evidence given by child victims;
• the use of witness intermediaries called 'Children’s Champions';
• and procedures to allow for appointment of District Court judges trained in management of child sexual assault matters.'

 

[Malifice]

To answer your question, news.com.au have launched a petition to expand a pilot program that has been rolled out in two NSW courts :

'to reduce the stress and difficulties placed on child victims and child witnesses without unfairly damaging the right to a fair trial for the defendant.

Measures include:

• an expansion of the use of pre-recorded evidence given by child victims;
• the use of witness intermediaries called 'Children’s Champions';
• and procedures to allow for appointment of District Court judges trained in management of child sexual assault matters.'

I broadly agree with all the above.

None of them would have sped up the trial though.

 

[Fadge]

None of them would have sped up the trial though.

Agree.

But all would have made material differences with regard to the trauma placed on the children for the period between when the alleged crime was first reported and when the verdict was eventually handed down in court.

 

[tandino]

How do you get around the fact that (technically assumed) victims are also witnesses with evidence to be tested?

 

[Mofra]

Out of curiosity what would you do differently?

It seems to me to be the major cause of the delay was a juror falling asleep at the 1st trial, requiring it to be aborted, and needing to go over it all a second time.

About the only thing I can see there that needs changing (other than protecting kids during cross examination) is getting the matter to trial sooner (without prejudicing the ability of the accused to obtain due and proper legal advice and assistance). That's a benefit to everyone, including the accused.

For such cases, giving evidence can be extremely traumatizing to the victims. Making them give the same evidence again after a mistrial is simply cruel.

Consideration needs to be given to record victim statements to avoid being retraumatized in the event of mistrial (I brought three brothers who r*ped a 14 year old in Geelong walked free as the victim simply could not handle another examination)

 

[western royboy]

Who regulates Lawyers? I’ve come across some ordinary things in my time on this earth, but some of the more ordinary have been as a result of “the law” in action, with little consequence

 

[Malifice]

Who regulates Lawyers? I’ve come across some ordinary things in my time on this earth, but some of the more ordinary have been as a result of “the law” in action, with little consequence

Legal practice boards in each state and territory.

 

[western royboy]

Legal practice boards in each state and territory.

Toothless?

 

[western royboy]

Me thinks the Lehrrman case has a stench that will not go away unless there’s a RC into it

 

[Fadge]

Me thinks the Lehrrman case has a stench that will not go away unless there’s a RC into it

It's an interesting case study.

Not sure where I sit with it...

 

[western royboy]

It's an interesting case study.

Not sure where I sit with it...

The conduct of some very senior people needs external and impartial scrutiny and if necessary some recommendations as to their ongoing fitness for roles in public life at the very minimum