No Oppo Supporters The Melt Thread

[Mudd]

So media bias is ok with you too?

I couldn't give a stuff about media bias, I don't play the victim card around here like many do.

I don't sit here crying that Channel 7 or The West Australian don't give us positive coverage, if we start playing successfull attractive footy they will have no choice but to.

 

[Proud SJW]

zZz We've been over this before, how would dropping the likes of Suban, Mzungu or Deboer last year dropped us down to mid table?

Tough question to answer really. I'd been working under the assumption that you knew the effect of playing three or four first season players on a regular basis during the course of a season.
Have I been overestimating your knowledge of the game?

That's all we were asking for last year.

Nope. Last year, we were asking... demanding, a flag. Nearly got one too, how close we really were depends upon individual opinions really.
It's all moot now, those who run about crowing about how they were right all along are just Monday experts.

Oh and don't try and pretend that game at the end of last year where we rested 3/4 of the team counts as us playing youth.

I deliberately excluded those four games from the count to begin with, but then someone else wanted to include Hawthorn's one game wonders so I put them back in. Fair's fair.

 

[Proud SJW]

I couldn't give a stuff about media bias, I don't play the victim card around here like many do.

I don't sit here crying that Channel 7 or The West Australian don't give us positive coverage, if we start playing successfull attractive footy they will have no choice but to.

Relax, man, argument was over, I'm just winding you up now.
Heh.

 

[Nodgey]

Feast or famine. I think not a few fans wanted to see some youngsters gradually introduced in 2014 and 2015. Especially when we were cruising at or near the top of the ladder where we could have had the luxury of 'carrying' a kid or 2. But they weren't. We instead stuck with the combination that got us there - 'carrying' the warhorses so to speak.

So now we're struggling and we've lots of youth in the side. But the fact that we're struggling now should NOT be used as evidence we shouldn't be playing kids. For me, it reinforces that we should have gradually introduced them when we had the opportunity.

 

[Reginald Perrin]

Bulldust, Broken leg to Fyfe,injuries ,Luke out and a crucial turnover cost the game. The deluded flogs where the lot who think all games can be won by big margins. Have a look at the results of the top sides this season. Hawthorn have struggled in a lot of their games are on top and are not copping the criticism that Fremantle did. Intelligent footy followers know who the deluded flogs are.

I think it would be an easier exercise to identify those supporters that aren't deluded flogs. I'll give it a go.

1. Reginald Perrin
2. ...

Yep, that's about it.

 

[jedi mind tricks]

I think it would be an easier exercise to identify those supporters that aren't deluded flogs. I'll give it a go.

1. Reginald Perrin
2. ...

Yep, that's about it.

You must be on some potent apple juice in Tassie bro

 

[Reginald Perrin]

You must be on some potent apple juice in Tassie bro

I blame the water here in WA.

 

[salim malik]

I blame the water here in WA.

Its the scotch in the water.

 

[UFO Tatsu]

zZz We've been over this before, how would dropping the likes of Suban, Mzungu or Deboer last year dropped us down to mid table?

That's all we were asking for last year.

Oh and don't try and pretend that game at the end of last year where we rested 3/4 of the team counts as us playing youth.

He actually didn't if you bothered to read his previous posts

 

[salim malik]

I think it would be an easier exercise to identify those supporters that aren't deluded flogs. I'll give it a go.

1. Reginald Perrin
2. ...

Yep, that's about it.

If you're a flog but not deluded that makes you.............???

 

[Mudd]

He actually didn't if you bothered to read his previous posts

If possible I try and avoid them, you've caught me out.

 

[Righteo]

Probably a little harsh & out of line here, but Ethan Hughes has no place in the AFL until he learns how to kick.

In fairness he's played a handful of games and is stuck in a defence under constant bombardment. I say keep playing him, he won't learn to adapt to AFL pressure in the 2nds. And your statement probably rings true of most of our 22 atm, it's disgusting how bad our skills are and our decision making is even worse. Hughes at least chooses the right options more often than not, even if he can't execute well.

 

[Proud SJW]

If possible I try and avoid them, you've caught me out.

****, that's two likes in two days.

I'm getting soft.

 

[AAACockburn]

Its the scotch in the water.

Water from melted ice blocks in the Scotch

 

[youmewe]

Feast or famine. I think not a few fans wanted to see some youngsters gradually introduced in 2014 and 2015. Especially when we were cruising at or near the top of the ladder where we could have had the luxury of 'carrying' a kid or 2. But they weren't. We instead stuck with the combination that got us there - 'carrying' the warhorses so to speak.

So now we're struggling and we've lots of youth in the side. But the fact that we're struggling now should NOT be used as evidence we shouldn't be playing kids. For me, it reinforces that we should have gradually introduced them when we had the opportunity.

Absolutely and to add more fuel to the the Freo v Hawthorn bonfire...

Freo v Hawthorn

Personnel changes

(2013 GF - Rd 1, 2016)

Freo had 16 of their 22 GF team on the park.

Missing: Sandi, Johnson, de Boer, Crowley, McPharlin and Duffield.

Sandi and Johnson remain first choice players. de Boer has played 3 games this season. Crowley is at Essendon. McPharlin and Duffield have retired.

'Newbies': Ibbotson, Griffin, C. Pearce, Sheridan, Taberner and Weller.

Ibbo, Griffin and C. Pearce were experienced players in 2013. Sheridan was a second year player and Tabs had debuted. Weller was the only genuine newbie.

Hawthorn had 12 of their 2013 GF team on the park.

Missing: Roughead, Hill, Sewell, Lake, Guerra, Hale, Franklin, Shiels, Simpkin and Bailey.

Roughead (illness permitting), Hill and Shiels remain first choice players. Franklin and Simpkin are at Sydney and Essendon respectively. Sewell, Lake, Guerra, Hale and Bailey have retired.

'Newbies': Hartung, McEvoy, Duryea, Frawley, O'Rourke, Litherland, Sicily, Schoenmakers, Langford and Pittonet.

Schoenmakers was an experienced player in 2013 as were McEvoy (StK) and Frawley (Mel). Duryea played 18 games in 2013 (debut year). Langford and O'Rourke played one game each in 2013. Litherland and Hartung debuted in 2014, Sicily in 2015 and Pittonet was making his debut.


Average age (2013 GF): Freo 26 years, 63 days; Hawthorn 26 years, 279 days.

Average age (Rd 1, 2016): Freo 26 years, 320 days, Hawthorn 26 years 179 days.


Freo v Hawthorn

Trade History

(2013 GF - Rd 1, 2016)

Freo

2013:

In: Sylvia (free agent); Gumbleton (for #55).

Out: Michie (for #56, eventually #58 (Brady Grey)).

2014:

No trades.

2015:

In: Bennell and #22 (for #16 and #35); #35 and #61 (for #56 and 2016 second rounder).

Hawthorn

2013:

In: McEvoy, #24 and #59 (for Savage, #18 and #19).

Out: Franklin and Ellis, both to free agency.

2014:

In: O'Rourke and #43 (for #19 and #40); #31, #50 and #68 (for Cheney, Lowden, #43, #47 and #58); #47 and #49 (for Hallahan); Frawley (free agent).

2015:

In: #15 and #55 (for Anderson, #38 and #40); #48 (for #55 and #58); Fitzpatrick (for #94).

Out: Suckling (free agent).


Overall:

Freo: Gained Sylvia via free agency and lost no one to free agency. Gained Gumbleton and Bennell via trades and lost Michie via trade.

Hawthorn: Gained Frawley via free agency whilst losing Franklin, Ellis and Suckling to free agency. Gained McEvoy, O'Rourke and Fitzpatrick via trades and lost Savage, Cheney, Lowden, Hallahan and Anderson via trades.

Both Freo and Hawthorn were very successful during 2014/15 (between us we won 2 premierships ). It is never wise to mess with a winning combination, however, our success resulted in us painting ourselves into a corner. Hawthorn were far more flexible with blooding and trading in new players.

 

[Proud SJW]

Very good assessment, the only exception I can think of taking is the use of round 1, 2016, which has been proved to be a bit of an abberation.

In rounds two and three we'd already started interchanging the journeymen with our younger players, and by the end of round four (I posted this somewhere else) the younger players had more games in them than De Boer, C Pearce and Muzungu. This is also excluding any account being taken of Bennell's probable inclusion early in the season (Lyon on record saying due to a slow preseason he was never considered for round 1 but was on the cards as a strong inclusion for the season in general) due to injury.
It's reasonably clear to me that the journeymen were being slowly rotated out while putting more games in the youth, but when the season got derailed by round six or so, that plan transformed into more of a youth policy. With a full squad, I'm guessing we would have seen (by way of example) Weller on 15 games or so and say, De Boer on 6 or 7.

It was happening in the early rounds even before we started taking injuries, so round one is not a good indication of Freo's plans for the season.


Other than that - nice work.

 

[Square Peg]

So, same as us in 2015, then? Which was, you know, my point?


.

You're being a bit of a turkey. The four players we debuted in round 23 2015 count now, do they? You can delude yourself that we handled the youngsters correctly in 2015, even Lyon himself now admits we didn't, but as long as you're sure good on you

 

[dockerfemme]

I can only assume that the argument is about whether we stuffed up our list management strategy in 2015, I'd almost argue that since 2013 we've got it wrong in some respects.

The different between the top teams and us is their ability to stay up for longer.

The reason for this in my view; their ability to top up to fill a need and their ability to create a natural progression for their youth.

Since 2013 we've certainly not topped up to fill a need and as for our progression of youth, the reason that 2016 has turned out the way it has is two-fold. Firstly our injury toll has been horrendous but in turn we've had to progress our youth in some sort of rush as opposed to a natural progression.

What should have been happening in my view is after the 2013 GF, we should have identified the players that perhaps aren't up to standard and slowly phased them out...the fact remains that we did not do this. As a consequence, you see what's happened this year as a result.

This season when looked at hand on heart has had a lot of problems but besides the most obvious one (injuries), the biggest failings have been with the list management (Bond and Lloyd) and the coaching (Lyon). With the greatest of respect our win at all costs mantra which, while admirable, has left us exposed in some respects. The most important thing now is to rebound from this and Bond and Lloyd need to get it right this off-season or they could find themselves very quickly out of a job.

I agree with you that it is since 2013 that we have made some poor decisions. We had a number of players who would have had some currency in the 2013 or 2014 trade periods who have not been an intrinsic part of the team since 2013. MdB, Clancee, Tendai, Alex S. We should have traded some of them for picks or pick upgrades and tried to improve the number and quality of draftees. I think it is the list turnover rather than best 22 turnover that is the problem. With a little more list turnover, the team turnover might have followed. These players now have no currency at all.

 

[holy diver]

Get a grip

 

[nurries]

Remember when I said I was going to kill you last???

Yes yes that's right

I lied

 

[Fred Ziffel]

I think it would be an easier exercise to identify those supporters that aren't deluded flogs. I'll give it a go.

1. Reginald Perrin
2. Fred Ziffel

Yep, that's about it.

Edited it for you, old son.

 

[ydraw]

Tough question to answer really. I'd been working under the assumption that you knew the effect of playing three or four first season players on a regular basis during the course of a season.
Have I been overestimating your knowledge of the game?

As opposed to Suban who regularly gets it less than 10 times a game?

A 16 year old schoolboy would have more influence.

 

[UFO Tatsu]

Edited it for you, old son.

3. Coulda

 

[Nodgey]

I agree with you that it is since 2013 that we have made some poor decisions. We had a number of players who would have had some currency in the 2013 or 2014 trade periods who have not been an intrinsic part of the team since 2013. MdB, Clancee, Tendai, Alex S. We should have traded some of them for picks or pick upgrades and tried to improve the number and quality of draftees. I think it is the list turnover rather than best 22 turnover that is the problem. With a little more list turnover, the team turnover might have followed. These players now have no currency at all.

Absolutely spot on. [emoji106] Unfortunately...

 

[jerms]

So you guys, this is my first post in the melt thread and I am seriously a bee's away from going into megamelt™ mode... I am so eff'ing pissed off about all this sh*t and just want the club to show some semblance of stability through it. We've traded like sh*t, drafted like sh*t, list managed like sh*t and relied on a then-superior and now-defunct RTB standard game plan, and that needs to stop fast. This off-season is defining for us - it better be bloody productive or we will be in the wilderness for a fair spell and negate much of the recent (and very admirable) improvement in our club's culture and standing. Had to let a trickle of rant release, thanks for listening.