No Oppo Supporters The Melt Thread

[FreoRicci]

I'd back Tabs and let him play CHF. He can do it. Right now Kersten is a headless chook, has been all pre season. Fyfe is not the answer- he's our freaking best midfielder/player. WE did this with Pav.

 

[smokingjacket]

Yeah it's the Dawson problem - fills his role as a pure stopper whose flaws are hidden by the fact the whole team plays defence as first instinct. He's not alone, and it's unfair to scapegoat him, but I just don't get how he has managed to play 9 seasons under Lyon. That's a lot of faith in a severely limited player. Only in a Lyon system would he survive.

He's the leading example but as I said before, I don't mind that he's a limited defender, in league with a salary cap and built-in equality measures, skilled team building is about hiding your limited players where you don't notice them. All Zac Dawson does well is defend one on ones and high balls. Despite this we have a game plan built around making sure that Zac Dawson doesn't get exposed by too many one on ones and high balls. Doesn't make any sense to me and hasn't for a while, going all the way back to McPharlin in his prime who we could afford to expose more than we did.

 

[igon value]

He's the leading example but as I said before, I don't mind that he's a limited defender, in league with a salary cap and built-in equality measures, skilled team building is about hiding your limited players where you don't notice them. All Zac Dawson does well is defend one on ones and high balls. Despite this we have a game plan built around making sure that Zac Dawson doesn't get exposed by too many one on ones and high balls. Doesn't make any sense to me and hasn't for a while, going all the way back to McPharlin in his prime who we could afford to expose more than we did.

Yeah, I guess what I mean is that Dawson is the leading light among a host of bad ball users down back, that we have kept from seeing the ball through midfield strangle because they turn it over. Spurr, Sutcliffe, Dawson et al have filled their role as defensive mop up players who were rarely under pressure, but weren't relied on to create. Now the ball is down there a lot more often, their inability to reliably move the ball from defence is what is being exposed.

 

[yoong]

Yeah it's the Dawson problem - fills his role as a pure stopper whose flaws are hidden by the fact the whole team plays defence as first instinct. He's not alone, and it's unfair to scapegoat him, but I just don't get how he has managed to play 9 seasons under Lyon. That's a lot of faith in a severely limited player. Only in a Lyon system would he survive.

dude, you have been banging on my buddy the whole night.
I'm actually cool with that, but the criticism need to make sense.
He actually stopped 3 certain goals today. He just somehow managed to parry it away.
He had only 5 disposals today, but non of them ended up as turnovers or put another teammate under pressure (that he usually was guilty of).
The only goal against him was from Hawkins. And Hawkins took an outside mark and kicked 55m at an angle to score that.
If you really want to nitpick, I'll say that he played better than Hamling today.

 

[IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN]

Not enough cheese in this toastie.

On GT-I9506 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[igon value]

dude, you have been banging on my buddy the whole night.
I'm actually cool with that, but the criticism need to make sense.
He actually stopped 3 certain goals today. He just somehow managed to parry it away.
He had only 5 disposals today, but non of them ended up as turnovers or put another teammate under pressure (that he usually was guilty of).
The only goal against him was from Hawkins. And Hawkins took an outside mark and kicked 55m at an angle to score that.
If you really want to nitpick, I'll say that he played better than Hamling today.

He's not a scapegoat, he's just the leading example of bad ball users in defence. Hamling may indeed be worse, Spurr has more possessions and turns over the ball more regularly, but the fact Dawson is a perennial player in Lyon footy suggests that creativity from defence is not something Lyon is good at coaching.

Who is our most creative player from defence? Most people would say Johnson, and he was really bad today. However it's not like he has much support back there either.

 

[smokingjacket]

Yeah, I guess what I mean is that Dawson is the leading light among a host of bad ball users down back, that we have kept from seeing the ball through midfield strangle because they turn it over. Spurr, Sutcliffe, Dawson et al have filled their role as defensive mop up players who were rarely under pressure, but weren't relied on to create. Now the ball is down there a lot more often, their inability to reliably move the ball from defence is what is being exposed.

Exactly that. Made worse by the fact that we aggressively compress the field from our defensive kick-ins too so we're asking more of players who can't deliver without the marking targets up forward who can over-compensate. Even in our good years, our defensive ball movement was overly reliant on Sandilands and Fyfe completely bossing the wings in contested marks from D50 clearances.

It looked like there was a semblance of a plan to change our ball movement but it fell apart because of our predictably bad skill level under pressure and that is a coaching thing as much as personnel

 

[smokingjacket]

Who is our most creative player from defence? Most people would say Johnson, and he was really bad today. However it's not like he has much support back there either.

Teams know Johnson is our only creative player and you can tell they use the ball getting to him as a pressing trigger to close down the "creative" passing options that he oftens uses, like space switches or sharp kicks into the corridor. They couldn't do that if we had multiple outlets.

 

[yoong]

He's not a scapegoat, he's just the leading example of bad ball users in defence. Hamling may indeed be worse, Spurr has more possessions and turns over the ball more regularly, but the fact Dawson is a perennial player in Lyon footy suggests that creativity from defence is not something Lyon is good at coaching.

Who is our most creative player from defence? Most people would say Johnson, and he was really bad today. However it's not like he has much support back there either.

Fair enough. But moving the ball out of defensive 50 is not the problem today.
Yes, there were a few turnovers due to skill errors that ended up as goals, but Geelong didn't lock it in our D50 like teams did to us last year.

If AP or other better options are healthy and available, I agree they should get their fair go. There are quite a few of our players that are average at best, but we do not have a replacement for them, unfortunately.

 

[igon value]

Fair enough. But moving the ball out of defensive 50 is not the problem today.
Yes, there were a few turnovers due to skill errors that ended up as goals, but Geelong didn't lock it in our D50 like teams did to us last year.

It's not just about getting the ball out of D50 - defenders sweep up the ball in a range from deep defence all the way to the attacking 50 metre arc. They're usually the ones responsible for switches and possession chains that create angles up and down the corridor. Most of ours can only go straight down the line reliably, and if they try anything else it's liable to be a turnover.

 

[darkshines]

I just don't get this continual 'we dont demand skill' mantra from Ross. Pav said it again today in the comm box, something along the lines of 'skill takes care of itself'.

*Ron Howard voice* - it doesnt.

The reigning premier won a flag identifying a skill and honing it to the point it was a huge advantage. We have the worst skills in the league, and we are publicly stating we don't focus on it.

Something is very wrong here. Very wrong.

 

[Hazelsnuts]

Ross's insistence that effort is more important than skills is a worrying comment.
We lacked both tonight by a few players.
Skill execution by Geelong made us look slow and lacking effort, let the ball do the work with good skills. Effort can be given, but I don't see us a being structural smart. Our forward line has little movement when we set up centre of forward, lots of arm waving and not much leading-gut running to make dummy leads that may create space for players to drop into. Watch Geelong!
Kersten was really disappointing, doesn't look to be pushing hard and at ground level one on one was beaten at least 4 times, when he drops marks like he did it's hard to be positive. Upside??
Tabs an option - after watching Kersten tonight I think Tabs is a better option as he presents continually although frustrating that being his size drops more grabs than he should.
I reckon we have a confronting season ahead of us if our mid tier players do not develop as has been the case for the past couple of years - too few doing too much. Ross wants an even team performance - the supporters want hope of a developing game plan with improving skill execution as a minimum.
Performance includes your development Ross , listening to the after match presser left me confused as to what the direction of our team is as Ross seems to think we were in the game?
I'm not often negative but today was an eye opener to where we are at after a summer of expectation to see some improvement.
I'll give it time but I am hopeful that at the moment it is chemistry and a new game plan taking time to develop.
Give hope that this is a path to success!
Here is hoping.

 

[Purple Jesus]

If I was Fyfe, I'd be wavering.

 

[Nightrain]

I don't think I have witnessed so many Freo players have bad or ordinary games in one game.

Hamling - If I didn't know who he was I could have sworn that was his first ever game of footy. Just looked lost.
Kersten - There are no excuses of getting to know the game plan, give him time etc. Basic footy errors for a pro athlete. He made me wish we had Jack Anthony back.
Johnson - Superannuation year. Tough I know after one game but howlers aside, he ain't moving like he used to
Lachie Weller - This kid needs to get out of the defence otherwise we will ruin him and turn him into Sherridan Mach 2. Yes, we need run out of the D50 but you also need to know how to defend. He gets drawn deep by his forward and does not have the body or the closing speed to even make a contest. And when he did run it out of defence I reckon half of the them were shank disposals. Put him back in the forward or HF line where his skill and pressure can be utilized and more importantly, he is happier. I realize I'm going real early with this after one game but look what happened to Sherro.
David Mundy - apparently he had 31 disposals. Could have fooled me. Whilst I wouldn't put him in the worse basket, we needed vintage Mundy tonight. He did some good things, he did some bad.
Lachie Neale - I thought was quiet.
Sandilands - Some of his tap work seemed to go straight to their players, there was the howler handball. Did redeem himself I thought with some impressive roving of his own ruck.
Walters - quiet.
McCarthy - Not sighted in the first quarter. Got some of it in the second.

The majority of the remainder had ordinary nights. Would say that Brad Hill was the only weapon we had with ball in hand. If only we could have got it to him more. Steve was Ok too. Fyfe was good, but not great.

You could use a blind fold and a dart to choose who to drop for next week as there'd be a good chance you'd hit someone that'd deserve it. Surely we can't play that bad again?

If it's not plain as a mole on a Scotsman's arse by now, we need to fix our forward line. Ok, we don't have Sydney's forward line but our forwards still have legs. Where are the leads, the running patterns, the blocks, the getting out the back? How many times did we just resort to bombing it in our forward line?

Lastly, we are kidding ourselves if we think we can win a premiership with our skill level. I wish we'd do a pre-season of no running and solely ball work. Pinging beer bottles on fence posts from 30m. I would be happy to sacrifice a year if it meant we had fat, unfit players, with clean, efficient disposal. Sure we'll get flogged but we can spend the following pre-season getting our fitness base up. How many times did errors or bad skills cost us tonight? 6 goals we gave away just from turn overs alone.

 

[Hazelsnuts]

Exactly - great summary, although I thought Mundy was our best, did so ver special clearance work until late in the game when he got gassed.

 

[Square Peg]

I thought the preseason after 2015 we did just do skills and not fitness? it got us nowhere
As for Brad Hill being the only dangerous player with ball in hand, his brother is the only thing that stopped us being utterly embarrassed. We need three Stephen Hill's, one on each line. Bennell plays, maybe we can get away with two.

 

[DudleyDocker]

Ross's insistence that effort is more important than skills is a worrying comment.
We lacked both tonight by a few players.
Skill execution by Geelong made us look slow and lacking effort, let the ball do the work with good skills. Effort can be given, but I don't see us a being structural smart. Our forward line has little movement when we set up centre of forward, lots of arm waving and not much leading-gut running to make dummy leads that may create space for players to drop into. Watch Geelong!
Kersten was really disappointing, doesn't look to be pushing hard and at ground level one on one was beaten at least 4 times, when he drops marks like he did it's hard to be positive. Upside??
Tabs an option - after watching Kersten tonight I think Tabs is a better option as he presents continually although frustrating that being his size drops more grabs than he should.
I reckon we have a confronting season ahead of us if our mid tier players do not develop as has been the case for the past couple of years - too few doing too much. Ross wants an even team performance - the supporters want hope of a developing game plan with improving skill execution as a minimum.
Performance includes your development Ross , listening to the after match presser left me confused as to what the direction of our team is as Ross seems to think we were in the game?
I'm not often negative but today was an eye opener to where we are at after a summer of expectation to see some improvement.
I'll give it time but I am hopeful that at the moment it is chemistry and a new game plan taking time to develop.
Give hope that this is a path to success!
Here is hoping.

I'm certainly not in the pitchfork brigade, and from what I have seen in training and also what is building at Peel I don't think it's all doom and gloom just yet, however...

At the end of 2015 we "bought in" some Hawthorn intellectual property in the form of David Hale and Brent Guerra, and delegated to them in an attempt to build more Hawthorn like skills. It really concerned me when I read recently that the players have told Ross that they want to go back to an effort based game plan, and that they were confused last year. Ross has actually taken that as a compliment - if I was him I would be asking the questions:

• Was I wrong in trying to import more skills through employing new assistants?
• If so, then why do I still have those assistants - if we are going back to the "old" game plan they will add very little.
• If not, then why am I allowing the players to dictate to me - the head coach - what style of game they want to play?

I have worked with people before who quite genuinely believe they are indispensable and will do whatever it takes to prove it. They delegate for failure, and as soon as anything goes wrong they come running in, rubbing their hands in glee saying "see, I told you it would all go pear-shaped if I'm not in charge".

Not saying that is the case here, but if Ross is going to take back control every time something new fails, we are going to be caught in a closed loop and we will not improve. I saw the same thing happen tonight with the players. They started off moving the ball quickly and attacking through the corridor, then as soon as they missed a few targets, and made some mistakes they went back into their default timid style of play which is to look backward at every opportunity and slow the play down. This played into Geelong's hands and from halfway though the first quarter I could see this was going to be a train wreck.

We have some very good players, we have some good depth at Peel and some good players to come back into the side. I thought Sandi, Fyfe, Lachie Neale and particularly Johnno looked well down on match hardened which is quite understandable. Hamling looked all at sea at times, but I think that was more a function of the defense as a whole having zero chemistry and we have seen he can play. McCarthy started to show glimpses and I'm sure he will get better with some games under his belt. Brad Hill looks class, but will take some time to understand how to play in a team without a forward line. Kersten was a huge disappointment to me, certainly his form tonight mirrored what we saw in the JLT games he played and there were times tonight when I thought Jack Anthony was back on the list. Not saying he is a dead loss, but at this stage he has shown nothing to warrant his spot in the team ahead of Taberner.

I don't want to see wholesale changes next week, because our biggest issue at the moment is a complete lack of cohesion and chemistry. But we HAVE to make at least two based on tonight. Suban comes out, I would bring Brady Grey in but if he is not fully fit then give Balic a run, he has earned it. And Kersten should go back to Peel to see if he can get some confidence and touch and Taberner comes in.

End melt.

 

[Hazelsnuts]

As evidenced tonight - old habits die hard.
Maybe it's time to kill off the player whose habits are too hard to fix Suban for one.
Saw more positive in Ibbo tonight as an upside, Spurr although tireless and has enormous effort - lacks kick penetration.
Daniel Pearce - disappointing, thought he might have improved, hoping he gets back to the damaging foot he had at Port.

 

[Nefarias_Bredd]

Skills were absolutely deplorable and if it wasn't for that we would have been much closer.

I love Johnno but it is time to say goodbye if he puts in more performances like that. He just turns the ball over too much.

 

[PapaJ]

I hope you're right, but i'm not sure you are. Our skills, especially in close, were deplorable. The number of fumbles and general lack of clean possession was ridiculous and I don't think you can fix that in a few weeks.
It was like we got the balls out for pre season training about 2 weeks ago.

My exact words around half way through the game to the mate sitting next to me was "Freo look like they're still doing pre-season training, Geelong look like a team ready for Round 1 of a season they expect will go deep into Sept."

Now a good part of that is lots of new cogs and a few youngish faces going through the system etc., so you've got to cut some slack - but bloody hell, any way you cut it these are pros, some of them seasoned (looking at you MJ) that should have far more poise and cleanness about their game.

A few exceptions aside (Mundy, Fyfe, Hills and Walters for at least some of the game), the team as a whole looked several classes of good below the Cats.

 

[FreoRicci]

Ross's insistence that effort is more important than skills is a worrying comment.
We lacked both tonight by a few players.
Skill execution by Geelong made us look slow and lacking effort, let the ball do the work with good skills. Effort can be given, but I don't see us a being structural smart. Our forward line has little movement when we set up centre of forward, lots of arm waving and not much leading-gut running to make dummy leads that may create space for players to drop into. Watch Geelong!
Kersten was really disappointing, doesn't look to be pushing hard and at ground level one on one was beaten at least 4 times, when he drops marks like he did it's hard to be positive. Upside??
Tabs an option - after watching Kersten tonight I think Tabs is a better option as he presents continually although frustrating that being his size drops more grabs than he should.
I reckon we have a confronting season ahead of us if our mid tier players do not develop as has been the case for the past couple of years - too few doing too much. Ross wants an even team performance - the supporters want hope of a developing game plan with improving skill execution as a minimum.
Performance includes your development Ross , listening to the after match presser left me confused as to what the direction of our team is as Ross seems to think we were in the game?
I'm not often negative but today was an eye opener to where we are at after a summer of expectation to see some improvement.
I'll give it time but I am hopeful that at the moment it is chemistry and a new game plan taking time to develop.
Give hope that this is a path to success!
Here is hoping.

That what disappointed myself majorly tonight. Just the lack of forward line understanding and who does what. Kersten was lazy and doesn't show the same leading patterns as Tabs, who is a gut runner and at least tries to present. McCarthy was too a bit random at times, but he got into it. Just hanging around each other and their defenders easily getting a fist to each contest. Griffin was guilty of this, as he kept getting into the contest in which Kersten or McCarthy were meant to. It has plagued Freo for a while now, and obviously this is something that will only get complicated with Pavlich retiring.
Guess can only change with timing and training. But something has to be be done ASAP and that starts with perhaps putting Kersten in the Peel team, changing the structure of having '2 full time ruckmen'. Because it just doesn't win games these days. Sandi as the lone ruck with say Taberner as back up ruck/forward- Apeness to come in that role when he is fit.
McCarthy plays as the stay at home forward, Crozier (or even Brady Gray get given a chance) needs to come in and at least play Ballantyne's role, Walters stays within the forward line. Taberner at CHF with perhaps Fyfe coming through.

HF: Gray/Crozier, Taberner, Blakely
FF: Walters, McCarthy, Weller

 

[downthecorridor]

I've been reading a lot of comments about our skill or lack thereof. Frankly I dont believe our players are less skilled than others in the competition given the amount of training we undertake and just the process to make it to an AFL list. This lack of perceived skill has been present for the entire 11 years I've been a member - how can this be with all the changes at the club during all these years? I'm convinced skill is directly related to confidence. I'm convinced that the current crop of players lack confidence because deep down they can't stand Ross and we would be 100% better under a younger more approachable coach. I believe our current team is more than capable and would excel under a modern coach. Just like how Simpson gave the same WCE team a breath of fresh air after Worsfold and experienced great success.

I will be the first to thank Ross when he leaves our club, the 2013 GF was one of the best sporting experiences I've ever had. But if he really wants to do whats best for the club and not to preserve his pride, he needs to accept that his time as an AFL coach has passed. Its time to bring forward the process of handing the reins to someone else and he won't suffer financially as he will be paid out. 6 years is long enough and its time for the club to bring this relationship to its inevitable end.

 

[Midnite65]

Ross preaches on an on about effort and intensity yet we have 45 tackles, 9thmond known for being soft, albeit playing only the Blues U19's still had 88 tackles. Effort, intensity and tackling is not about skills but desire and attitude for hard work. That kick in effort of Johnson's off one step was absolutely deplorable and illustrated his intensity for the contest.

 

[Midnite65]

I've been reading a lot of comments about our skill or lack thereof. Frankly I dont believe our players are less skilled than others in the competition given the amount of training we undertake and just the process to make it to an AFL list. This lack of perceived skill has been present for the entire 11 years I've been a member - how can this be with all the changes at the club during all these years? I'm convinced skill is directly related to confidence. I'm convinced that the current crop of players lack confidence because deep down they can't stand Ross and we would be 100% better under a younger more approachable coach. I believe our current team is more than capable and would excel under a modern coach. Just like how Simpson gave the same WCE team a breath of fresh air after Worsfold and experienced great success.

I will be the first to thank Ross when he leaves our club, the 2013 GF was one of the best sporting experiences I've ever had. But if he really wants to do whats best for the club and not to preserve his pride, he needs to accept that his time as an AFL coach has passed. Its time to bring forward the process of handing the reins to someone else and he won't suffer financially as he will be paid out. 6 years is long enough and its time for the club to bring this relationship to its inevitable end.

Apart from getting Roos or Clarkson who else would be a better coach?

 

[Midnite65]

MJ, Sutcliffe, Lyon out.

Sandilands retirement. Hilarious that people still don't see how much of a burden this guy is. Literally 0 hand eye coordination, which you would think is important for a tap ruckman.

Lyon out??? In ???