Play Nice The Merits of the AFL Womens League or lack thereof

[Bostonian]

Getting hit hard isn't part of ozkick, or part of under 13s. Yes, collision intensity will increase as female footy gets better, but not until 16 or so, and then only in the more high performance streams.

The girls, and parents at this point are well committed, and well aware of the risks.

I question that part as there's been next to no studies on women and AFL in regards to health issues. The long term risks aren't known at all.

Brittany Bonicci did have repeated head trauma end 2014/15, to the point of collapsing randomly, and was told she may never play again, however she improved, and the moment she got the all clear, she went back to footy.

I do not expect women walking away to be much different than men walking away from the sport. It will happen, but will not be a deciding factor.

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It's more to do with long term participation rates more so than those walking away.

However because this league has been rushed in setting it up the addition of athletes already nearing retirement age in the men's game and from other sports the physical nature of the sport could see players walking away from the game at a greater number than the men. Especially if the league increases the amount of games and teams sooner rather than later.

My doubts really are centred around long term supply of quality players to a league and can it replace what is lost like for like.

 

[Bostonian]

Played it all my life, never considered an accidental head injury, or a knee injury to be any different.

Not to harp on the anecdotes. Tayla Harris was tweating a couple of months back about breaking her nose at training. I would call the general tenor of her posts as 'secretely chuffed'. The videos of female clubs shows girls pleased to be talking about their 'war wounds'.

Your comments are correct about a lot of girls, and a lot of parents. Those girls are not playing high level competitive footy, never were, and never will.

The girls that are, are going to tweet and Instagram the s**t out of it if they ever come of a footy field dripping blood.

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And that will have a negative impact on parents wanting their girls involved. Hell, plenty of parents of male kids won't let their kids play AFL because of the roughness of it.

I played it all my life too and a knee was always considered more unlucky than getting a head knock because nobody expects a knee injury, head knocks are a given.

 

[Garlic muncher]

I question that part as there's been next to no studies on women and AFL in regards to health issues. The long term risks aren't known at all.




It's more to do with long term participation rates more so than those walking away.

However because this league has been rushed in setting it up the addition of athletes already nearing retirement age in the men's game and from other sports the physical nature of the sport could see players walking away from the game at a greater number than the men. Especially if the league increases the amount of games and teams sooner rather than later.

My doubts really are centred around long term supply of quality players to a league and can it replace what is lost like for like.

Surely womens AFL has more than one angle, participation rates like boys will drop as girls get older, but surely thousands of young girls will enjoy their younger years kicking a sherrin or a burley at their local club, i would have thought that as important as the new league itself.

Can we put a price on that and how many as they mature, marry, move etc will put their kids through the same cycle.

 

[Bostonian]

Surely womens AFL has more than one angle, participation rates like boys will drop as girls get older, but surely thousands of young girls will enjoy their younger years kicking a sherrin or a burley at their local club, i would have thought that as important as the new league itself.

Can we put a price on that and how many as they mature, marry, move etc will put their kids through the same cycle.

Sure that can be an aim, but that doesn't mean millions should be spent in achieving that. This is what was needed for the next ten years at grass roots level before starting a fully fledged national league. Needed to see if it was sustainable at grass roots level before spending that amount of money on a whim.

 

[BringBackTorps]

It's a novelty for now and that's all. If the science indicates that as a sport AFL posses more potentially long lasting health risks to young girls and women than their male counterparts then it will eventually have an affect on parents views.

Wanting to play it and being physiologically suited to playing it are different matters.

It is very clear you do not like women's football, and you stated you want to encourage females to play netball, but not AF. That's ok, some people will like it, some won't.

Some of your comments are unnecessarily alarmist, untrue and/or disingenuous.

AF currently has about 380,000 registered female players, the vast majority in good health! The VWFL started in 1981 -and the game is growing strongly in all states now. Once the televised AFLW commences in Feb., and female AFLW role models become much better known amongst the general community, this figure might double over 10 years.

Head knocks and injuries are rare in female AF -but certainly, AF is a much rougher game than netball. The women require tenacity & courage, unlike most other female sports.

ACL & knee reconstructions etc. are not uncommon in netball. Do you believe netball rules should be changed, re the sudden stopping, to reduce netball's serious knee injury rate?

Do you believe heading should be banned in soccer for young players?

How long have you been a Carlton supporter, and from what age?

How many games did you go to last year?

 

[Bostonian]

It is very clear you do not like women's football, and you stated you want to encourage females to play netball, but not AF. That's ok, some people will like it, some won't.

That was at my own local football club. So nothing to do with liking or disliking. I have friends who work their arses off with the netball program, don't want them losing player after player from their program to AFL.

Some of your comments are unnecessarily alarmist, untrue and/or disingenuous.

My comments are taking the position of looking into the future and making a call based on previous examples of such leagues in Australia.

AF currently has about 380,000 registered female players, the vast majority in good health! The VWFL started in 1981 -and the game is growing strongly in all states now. Once the televised AFLW commences in Feb., and female AFLW role models become much better known amongst the general community, this figure might double over 10 years.

How do you know their health? Please quote me the studies into the health of female AFL players over a period of time.

Head knocks and injuries are rare in female AF -but certainly, AF is a much rougher game than netball. The women require tenacity & courage, unlike most other female sports.

That's because the standard of play and the skills are low at present. Once the speed of the game picks up and the muscle replaces the puppy fat the chances of injury increase.

That's a rather belittling thing to say about women playing other sports. What are these other female sports that don't require any tenacity or courage?

ACL & knee reconstructions etc. are not uncommon in netball. Do you believe netball rules should be changed, re the sudden stopping, to reduce netball's serious knee injury rate?

Most other sports look into ways to reduce certain injuries, so the answer would logically be yes.

Do you believe heading should be banned in soccer for young players?

Is it really a thing? Watched a lot of soccer in my time and bar the defenders how many times a game would most players head the ball?

How long have you been a Carlton supporter, and from what age?

How many games did you go to last year?

I've been a CFC supporter since 1977.

I played over 200+ games myself.

I went to 4 games last season as I have other sporting commitments with my local teams that limit how many games I can attend.

Do you want my bra size too?

 

[The_Wookie]

My comments are taking the position of looking into the future and making a call based on previous examples of such leagues in Australia.

Which such leagues?

 

[The_Wookie]

Sure that can be an aim, but that doesn't mean millions should be spent in achieving that. This is what was needed for the next ten years at grass roots level before starting a fully fledged national league. Needed to see if it was sustainable at grass roots level before spending that amount of money on a whim.

Its also going to come in relatively neutral on cost. Sure the league is spending a couple of million - 4 million out of the close to 550 million a year it makes, so less than 1% of its total funds - but its also getting most of that back through sponsorship and the clubs will get back a lot of theirs on foundation and other memberships/merchandise.

I do think a more bottom up approach would have been better, however, the top down approach is having results of its own as the AFLs actions have galvanised others into action which WILL have a lasting impact.

As for netball, its been the leading sport for women for decades. If it cant hold into them now, it is never going to.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Do you want my bra size too?

No, only bank account details thanks.

 

[jatz14]

Its also going to come in relatively neutral on cost. Sure the league is spending a couple of million - 4 million out of the close to 550 million a year it makes, so less than 1% of its total funds - but its also getting most of that back through sponsorship and the clubs will get back a lot of theirs on foundation and other memberships/merchandise.

I do think a more bottom up approach would have been better, however, the top down approach is having results of its own as the AFLs actions have galvanised others into action which WILL have a lasting impact.

As for netball, its been the leading sport for women for decades. If it cant hold into them now, it is never going to.

Doing just top down, or just bottom up would have been stupid in my opinion.

Bottom up is what has been going on for yours quietly in the background. It what got them to the point a national comp could be considered. The problem with continuing is it would have just producing the same issue. Lots of the best and most ambitious young athletes leave the sport for something played at more than a suburban level.

the change to a more top down approach had to be made, because without the `top`, the best do not stay. This has also had the benefit of turbo charging the bottom.
Senior Victorian female football
1981 - 4 teams
2002 - 1 division
2005 - 25 teams
2010 - 4 divisions
2014 - 5 divisions
2017 - 10 leagues

10 leagues feeding up into 4 Vic teams seems pretty bottom up to me.

 

[Bostonian]

Which such leagues?

Soccer and Basketball.

Both have had high numbers of junior girl participation over the years but that hasn't translated to great success nor popularity once national leagues were formed.

 

[Bostonian]

Its also going to come in relatively neutral on cost. Sure the league is spending a couple of million - 4 million out of the close to 550 million a year it makes, so less than 1% of its total funds - but its also getting most of that back through sponsorship and the clubs will get back a lot of theirs on foundation and other memberships/merchandise.

I do think a more bottom up approach would have been better, however, the top down approach is having results of its own as the AFLs actions have galvanised others into action which WILL have a lasting impact.

As for netball, its been the leading sport for women for decades. If it cant hold into them now, it is never going to.

I think this method would have lead to a higher standard of football once launched and a bigger pool of depth.

As it is now the product isn't that great at launch point and the depth is very shallow. This could have an impact on the long term outlook for crowds etc

In today's need to be pleased society if something doesn't get people in from the start it often struggles to hold interest or grow it's popularity.

 

[Bostonian]

Doing just top down, or just bottom up would have been stupid in my opinion.

Bottom up is what has been going on for yours quietly in the background. It what got them to the point a national comp could be considered. The problem with continuing is it would have just producing the same issue. Lots of the best and most ambitious young athletes leave the sport for something played at more than a suburban level.

the change to a more top down approach had to be made, because without the `top`, the best do not stay. This has also had the benefit of turbo charging the bottom.
Senior Victorian female football
1981 - 4 teams
2002 - 1 division
2005 - 25 teams
2010 - 4 divisions
2014 - 5 divisions
2017 - 10 leagues

10 leagues feeding up into 4 Vic teams seems pretty bottom up to me.

10 leagues isn't much in the context of a national league. Look at how many male junior teams there are Victoria wide and look how many individuals actually come through and have an impact at AFL level. Takes many thousands and thousands of juniors nation wide to produce 50-60 kids worth drafting each year.

 

[NoobPie]

Soccer and Basketball.

Both have had high numbers of junior girl participation over the years but that hasn't translated to great success nor popularity once national leagues were formed.

Serious? The same can be said of the men's comps in those sports!

More women attend AFL matches and watch them on TV then either gender of those two sports combined.

There'll be a "novelty factor", sure, but this thing will be viable long term and will, every couple of years, get a shot in the arm with two new AFL clubs with teams

 

[NoobPie]

10 leagues isn't much in the context of a national league. Look at how many male junior teams there are Victoria wide and look how many individuals actually come through and have an impact at AFL level. Takes many thousands and thousands of juniors nation wide to produce 50-60 kids worth drafting each year.

The AFL W will be well and truly less elite than the AFL. It will increase in "eliteness" each year at a significant rate.

 

[jatz14]

10 leagues isn't much in the context of a national league. Look at how many male junior teams there are Victoria wide and look how many individuals actually come through and have an impact at AFL level. Takes many thousands and thousands of juniors nation wide to produce 50-60 kids worth drafting each year.

More and more suburban footy produces more and more suburban footy players. The 'elite' men's comps started to emerge pretty early in the evolution of the men's game.

If we are going to take the men as the standard, and develop a women's elite comp when the talent was at that standard, it would never happen.

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[Bostonian]

Serious? The same can be said of the men's comps in those sports!

Exactly, so the line of it will bring more women into the AFL game is a false narrative. Won't put more bums on seats for the main AFL.

More women attend AFL matches and watch them on TV then either gender of those two sports combined.

Yup, so this women's league will have next to no impact on the men's league as far as viewers and bums on seats.

There'll be a "novelty factor", sure, but this thing will be viable long term and will, every couple of years, get a shot in the arm with two new AFL clubs with teams

If they aren't getting 5k avg crowds in a few years time then it really needs to be re-evaluated before adding new teams.

 

[Bostonian]

The AFL W will be well and truly less elite than the AFL. It will increase in "eliteness" each year at a significant rate.

And that's going to be a big issue in regards to appealing to the public as a product. Had they waited another 5 years minimum to build up the standard of the play and depth then the product they put out would be far better.

 

[jatz14]

Exactly, so the line of it will bring more women into the AFL game is a false narrative. Won't put more bums on seats for the main AFL.



Yup, so this women's league will have next to no impact on the men's league as far as viewers and bums on seats.



If they aren't getting 5k avg crowds in a few years time then it really needs to be re-evaluated before adding new teams.

It was never intended to put more bums on seats in the men's comp.

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[NoobPie]

Exactly, so the line of it will bring more women into the AFL game is a false narrative. Won't put more bums on seats for the main AFL.



Yup, so this women's league will have next to no impact on the men's league as far as viewers and bums on seats.



If they aren't getting 5k avg crowds in a few years time then it really needs to be re-evaluated before adding new teams.

Average crowds along will not be the driver of whether they get new teams or not. It will be general interest

I don't know where in the thread "putting more bums on seats at men's games" was determined the sole measure of success though. It may reignite some interest in the men's game but more importantly it will make the game and clubs more gender inclusive.

And that's going to be a big issue in regards to appealing to the public as a product. Had they waited another 5 years minimum to build up the standard of the play and depth then the product they put out would be far better.

And in 5 years time it will be of a higher standard than if they waited 5 years

Bostonian, there is nothing to be afraid of....and you actually have a team, get behind it!

 

[The_Wookie]

Soccer and Basketball.

Both have had high numbers of junior girl participation over the years but that hasn't translated to great success nor popularity once national leagues were formed.

None of them have had anywhere near the money and resources the AFL has. Nor the media support from the outset. The AFL Womens comp - before it even started - will be the only female sport that will have every game broadcast live. Further Cricket and Soccer have always had higher participation numbers than the AFL, but it doesnt seem to hurt the popularity of the AFL too much.

 

[The_Wookie]

I think this method would have lead to a higher standard of football once launched and a bigger pool of depth.

As it is now the product isn't that great at launch point and the depth is very shallow. This could have an impact on the long term outlook for crowds etc

In today's need to be pleased society if something doesn't get people in from the start it often struggles to hold interest or grow it's popularity.

I think a graduated approach would have been better.

• Year 1 - All AFL teams take up a development zone - running clinics and talent searches, representative sides play each other through the year.
• Year 2 - All AFL teams form state competition sides - as was done with GWS/Gold Coast
• Year 3 - the top half of the teams in each state graduate to the AFL Womens competition.

 

[The_Wookie]

Exactly, so the line of it will bring more women into the AFL game is a false narrative.

Is is though? Theres plenty of anecdotal evidence out there of women and girls who would have taken up the sport years ago if this had been on offer. You only need to look at where some of the draftees are coming from to see thats the case too.

Won't put more bums on seats for the main AFL.

Im not sure that its meant to. Theres more to bringing people into the game than just the AFL.

Yup, so this women's league will have next to no impact on the men's league as far as viewers and bums on seats.

Again, not sure thats the point.

If they aren't getting 5k avg crowds in a few years time then it really needs to be re-evaluated before adding new teams.

Im sure the AFL will set realistic goals compared to other female sports in the country. As long as there is demand, and costs are met by sponsors/broadcasters/memberships, I dont think there will be an issue.

 

[Bostonian]

None of them have had anywhere near the money and resources the AFL has. Nor the media support from the outset. The AFL Womens comp - before it even started - will be the only female sport that will have every game broadcast live. Further Cricket and Soccer have always had higher participation numbers than the AFL, but it doesnt seem to hurt the popularity of the AFL too much.

Soccer and Basketball coverage for women's national leagues was there. Nobody really watched it though.

I agree AFL will start from a better stand point than those sports. However it's still going to be a low quality product on the field.

That's why those other sports gained few viewers, the viewing public tend to focus on the highest levels of sports, not the lower levels.

AFL is popular at the top end. What would be the viewing figures if the TAC Cup were broadcast live? It's a higher standard than the women's league is yet it doesn't attract any decent crowds.

With the AFL Women's league you're not going to be watching it to see great football, you're going to watch it because it's women playing.

Will that be enough of a draw card/ selling point is yet to be determined.

 

[Bostonian]

Is is though? Theres plenty of anecdotal evidence out there of women and girls who would have taken up the sport years ago if this had been on offer. You only need to look at where some of the draftees are coming from to see thats the case too.

As someone who played football for many years it actually takes people away from AFL games because they can't attend due to local league commitments.

So it could have a negative affect on people going to AFL games instead of bringing them to games.

Im not sure that its meant to. Theres more to bringing people into the game than just the AFL.

That should be the AFL's prime objective. Isn't that why it's wasting millions on GWS?

Again, not sure thats the point.

Then it's a lot of money being poured into something that could have easily sufficed staying at the local league levels for years to come.

Im sure the AFL will set realistic goals compared to other female sports in the country. As long as there is demand, and costs are met by sponsors/broadcasters/memberships, I dont think there will be an issue.

They have no choice now to keep bankrolling it now for eternity.