Strategy The midfield

[Jeremias]

There has been a lot of discussion creeping into other threads about our midfield, but it deserves its own thread.

We enter 2020 still reliant on an experienced few, though the depth we have managed to build in this area of the ground is seriously impressive. We now have a glut of talent who could feature prominently, albeit many are very young and require further development.

The proof will as always be in the pudding, but it is very hard to not get excited about what this group may produce in 2020 and beyond, and it all starts in the midfield.

For a while now I have wanted to take a deeper look into our midfield, and 2020 is finally the year to do it.
I will be posting in this thread a weekly update on formations, success rates and any other stats relevant to the midfield debate.

In the meantime, I am keen to hear what you think is our optimal midfield setup come R1 vs the Tigers?
What are your expectations for our midfield group in 2020?
What do you see as the strengths and weaknesses of our midfield options, both individually and as a collective?
Are there any specific types you think we need to target come the player movement period at the end of 2020?

For reference, this is the midfield group we recently voted as being our consensus best 22:

C: Sam Walsh, Patrick Cripps, Will Setterfield
FOL: Matthew Kreuzer, Ed Curnow, Marc Murphy
INT: Sam Petrevski-Seton, Zac Fisher, Jack Newnes

Whether or not you agree with this as being our best setup to start the year, there is no doubt this is a very talented group. Even more telling perhaps is the caliber of footballers who would be waiting in reserve.

Have at it.

 

[Windhover]

Round 1 we are playing Richmond. Ignoring rucks Footywire informs that the leading centre clearance and leading clearance tigers, averages per game, are Prestia, Cotchin, Martin, Edwards, Ross. Daylight to Graham and Lambert. Subject to injury those 7 pick themselves unless Marlion steps up, as he might. Except for Martin, the other 4 are superb 2-way runners.

Our midfield does not quite pick itself as we are still a work in progress.

Cripps is certain, as he is our main extractor. Cotchin would be his nominal opponent. Cotchin's advantage over Cripps is his 2-way running. When the contest is over someone (Ed?) needs to be able to help Cripps out with chasing down Cotchin.

Walsh is certain as he is all class. If Ross can play mid for Richmond, Walsh is 2 months older and much better in all facets. Most importantly, Walsh is a 2-way runner.

Ed should be certain as he is a 2-way runner and our best shut down mid. I would play him on Martin when Martin is in the middle and play him on Prestia otherwise.

Murphy is our best ball using mid but a weak 2 way runner.

The 5th position is up for grabs. I like Fisher and IMO he has proved himself as a mid. That said, Dow only has to improve a little bit to go past him, although I would need to be convinced Dow can 2-way run first.
I see SPS's talents best utilised off the hbf. One of the big transformations under Teague was the confidence SPS and Setterfield developed to look for and play to each other. I see SPS doing that more off a hbf than as an in the guts mid.

Despite the rave reviews of others Setterfield has not shown any capacity as a centre bounch mid. His talents, and there are many, have mainly been seen as a wide receiver. Apparently his preseason form has shown a new side to his inside work. We can only hope, but expectation based on performance does not see him as anything other than an incidental performer in the middle.

Newnes is not a clearance winner and therefore has no role to play in a midfield centre bounce rotation. Gibbons, Kennedy, Cuningham, SOJ, Stocker, Polson and Cottrell are, like Setterfield, just hope over expectation.

I like Kennedy and think he has shown an ability to play in the midfield. Unfortunately his form has been so clouded by injury it is hard to be sure. That said, if he could play in the forward pocket and relieve Cripps for 5 minutes a quarter without us losing too much drive, then (unless the preseason rumours about Setterfield being a contested beast prove true) this would be a very happy circumstance that might making picking Eddie B problematic. I hope so anyway - much as I love Eddie.

The important thing with the Tigers is they don't mind losing the clearances. They play a 7 man defence and aim to use the ball running forward from defence (or trapped in their forward line) better than the opposition. To beat them we will need not just to beat them in the middle (as I would expect) but also compete with them in the 2-way running. This is where improvement from LOB, Gibbons and/or Cottrell could accelerate our game performance significantly. If no improvement from those players then Newnes can hopefully reproduce form he has shown prior to 2019. If Newnes is regularly in the team then either we will have suffered significant injuries or a number of the players on our list will still need to be turned over.

 

[Red_man2008]

How would we go if our midfield was Cripps, Walsh, Curnow and Cottrell with help from Newnes and Gibbons. All but Cripps two-way run. Cripps doesn’t need to. We could do what richmond try to do and run. We will have 2 months extra training in front of them and we could run them off their legs.

 

[Dominator68]

Meh, I see Crippa chase and tackle all the time

 

[TerryWallet]

In my mind, i see Cripps, Ed, Walsh, Murphy and Dow as our main mids.

Setterfield, Fisher and Gibbons doing their bit after that.

JSOS maybe a role here and there.

When Murph and Ed have had enough, the next wave of Stocker, Kemp, Philp come through to integrate in.

 

[HARKER]

I find it interesting as to what may come about and I think that 5 principle mids may be the way it will go.

I do though think that on the occasions where Cripps isn't involved, that it may be Setterfield that steps straight in.
Early in the pre-season, but he's much stronger than what I saw last year and for quite obvious reasons.....but he's very strong and balanced.
If things work out maybe Cripps doesn't have to be involved 80% of the time. Maybe 70% will work, allowing him to 'rest' forward a little more. Maybe?

Average centre-square ball-ups per game = approx. 25 * games = 22 involvements = 3
That makes for a total of 1650 centre square involvement across the midfielders. Looks like a lot now doesn't it?
Cripps may be involved up to about 500 times in the year. That's huge.

My feeling is that as much as we may be tempted to use ECurnow & Murphy, as we did after Teague took over, that there will be a gradual passing of the baton as the year rolls on. Quite a bit of pressure on Setterfield, Dow and Fisher to perform, I'd guess.

 

[gbatman]

We're all hoping that we have a lot of this highly rated talent come on and I hope we do, we could have a really strong midfield if that happens.

The key to our midfield is not being too Cripps centric. We can't be predictable and just be going to Cripps all the time and can't be reliant of Cripps playing well. There was a period in 2019 where Cripps was out and we actually played well. Our midfield shared the load and was less predictable. Think it was against Freo it really stood out. Anyway that's how I see it. we need to embrace a real team aspect in the midfield, particularly at stoppages.


Midfield core will be made up from Cripps, Walsh, Murphy, Curnow and Setterfield. Others looking to fill in the gaps will be Newnes,
Dow, O'Brien, Stocker and Fisher.

Main candidates

Newnes - I think will play, we'll be looking for a wingman and he has maturity and can play at a decent AFL level.

Dow - Comes across as the potential mid with the most boxes to tick but also one of the ones with the most potential. Pressure acts, kicking, repeat efforts, endurance, possession count, versatility etc. Think he won't be in the side early as he builds in these areas in the VFL but it may not be long.

O'Brien - Has shown he can play but competition for the wing with Newnes coming on and Walsh probably being able to play more wing means he needs to find consistency. His good last year was pretty good but he had a lot of quiet games and struggled to compete against the stronger side who brought more physicality. If his better games from last year become the norm for him then he probably plays.

Stocker - To me seems the most likely with the only real thing against him being that he is in his second season and generally that means he's still raw and still building. He has the skills, power and strength and he was such a quality junior player that I feel if he can run out games and bring quality repeat efforts then he's likely to leapfrog a few and end up in the side but I feel he'll start VFL.

Fisher - A bit older than most of our youngsters, has shown plenty but lacked in the physical aspect of the game last season and didn't demonstrate the versatility up forward. If he comes out and plays hard then he's straight in for mine as he ticks all the other boxes.


Outsiders

Kemp - If it wasn't for the injury I would think we would get a look at him next year as I think he's a special talent although he might not see much midfield time.

Ramsay - My darkhorse to make it from the new draftee group. If he can be a ball magnet and play tough footy and bring some pressure like he does then it will be hard to keep him out. Body is immature but so was Walsh's last season and Simpson is still small but plays hard footy. Who knows really.

Martin - Capable of playing midfield but I feel will be forward.

Silvagni - Will probably play a mix of high half forward to deep forward for mine. Some midfield time. Silvagni has good hands and good awareness. As he naturally gets heavier and heavier through the hips and harder to tackle and shift he will be more appealing as an inside midfielder, a bit like his grandfather was who was very bottom heavy.

Kennedy - Shown nothing at AFL level as a midfielder but if he's fitter you never know.

Lang - Played some ok footy as a forward last year and coming off some big injuries. Never know, a wing could be up for grabs but I feel he will be competing hard.

Docherty - End of 2017 when we could afford to we rotated him through the middle and this year we may have an excess of smaller defenders at times. Could play wing easily IMO, especially as a defensive winger who drops back into defence.

Newman - As with Docherty, could be a dangerous wingman. Would kick goals and probably just needs to go next level with his running.

Cuningham - Does go into the middle as a rotation but his main position will be forward.

Polson - Outside chance. Still very young and has been getting his body right a bit.

Williamson - To the wing? Just never know.

SPS - Been a bit of a midfielder but he's probably found his home in defence. Could spend time in the midfield.

Gibbons - Played as a forward but was a star midfielder in the VFL for years. Could he end up back in there after his first AFL preseason?

Cottrell - A lot saying he has it and IMO he does. Still young and skinny but good skills and an elite runner and pretty hard at it. If he goes up a level it's going to be hard to keep him out.

X Factor
Things aren't working and the game is on the line, who can we take from left field and throw in there after a long thinking session after half time? We saw it this year with Silvagni tagging Fyfe. IMO a fully fit McGovern is that player. He's strong, powerful and quick. His reflexes look good. If he's not in the game and his running is now up to scratch for the first time ever he is the one I am saying to "go into the middle, be aggressive, throw your weight around and get into this game". Clearly his running has never been up to it but he looks so trim and fit at the moment and I know what he's capable of.

Ruckmen

I don't think we should be just ticking Kreuzer off as our number one ruck anymore. He played ok last season, beat up on the weaker rucks really well but was beaten comfortably by the better rucks in the competition. He's probably a real upper middle class ruckman which is fine but he's vulnerable to someone with good form IMO.

Pittonett IMO could come in as a specialist when playing against a side with a gun ruckman like a Grundy or Gawn etc. Could even become number one but who knows. TDK is a chance but I feel he'll likely get games as a forward ruck until his VFL form is really strong.

Kreuzer is probably still our number one but IMO we should rest him more.

Likely round 1...

C: Newnes Cripps Walsh
OB: Kreuzer Murphy Curnow
IC: Setterfeld Fisher

 

[Arr0w]

Do you know if that number only includes the starting four or if player in off the edge of the square count?

Would be both, but will have to do some work to get the starting centre bounce numbers

 

[Arr0w]

Actually this discussion is becoming a little strange

People want a set number of players to be centre bounce/midfielders, but it just doesn't work that way

You have your preferred players, but you strive for a point of difference, the upper hand etc and that is why you have rotations, along of course for resting players, preferable forward

The main focus will be increased, effective inside 50 counts

 

[HARKER]

Actually this discussion is becoming a little strange

People want a set number of players to be centre bounce/midfielders, but it just doesn't work that way

You have your preferred players, but you strive for a point of difference, the upper hand etc and that is why you have rotations, along of course for resting players, preferable forward

The main focus will be increased, effective inside 50 counts

It's not strange at all but let's not make it stranger than it may be.

Every team strives to find the best set-up and the best options thereafter.
When Teague took over this year, the trio of Cripps, ECurnow and Murphy became the first go-to option. Pretty sure numbers would support that.

We're just in a transitional phase now where ECurnow and Murphy will need to be usurped by better and more viable options.
We jusat don't know what that best set-up will be....what the second preferred option may be...the third etc.

Yes, yes...horses for courses to a point, but your better performed midfielders will get the first call-up. I think this is common sense.

If no other question was to be asked - Which 5 midfielders by years end will be used the most at centre bounces? This alone tells the tale.

 

[Stamos]

Actually this discussion is becoming a little strange

People want a set number of players to be centre bounce/midfielders, but it just doesn't work that way

People are arguing that it does, in fact, now work that way.
This is influenced both by the 6-6-6 rule, and with Carlton specifically, Teague changing our set-ups in in the second half of the season.

 

[Accidental genius]

I really like GBatman’s idea of mcgov to midfield at certain times of need.

 

[Red_man2008]

It's not strange at all but let's not make it stranger than it may be.

Every team strives to find the best set-up and the best options thereafter.
When Teague took over this year, the trio of Cripps, ECurnow and Murphy became the first go-to option. Pretty sure numbers would support that.

We're just in a transitional phase now where ECurnow and Murphy will need to be usurped by better and more viable options.
We jusat don't know what that best set-up will be....what the second preferred option may be...the third etc.

Yes, yes...horses for courses to a point, but your better performed midfielders will get the first call-up. I think this is common sense.

If no other question was to be asked - Which 5 midfielders by years end will be used the most at centre bounces? This alone tells the tale.

Very similar to late 2019 season I presume. Cripps Murphy Curnow Walsh bit I reckon we will add Newnes and Setterfield to this list.

 

[JustaBattler]

Fisher and Dow will have to have huge pre-seasons and beat Walsh/Stocker/JSOS/Kennedy/Setterfield/Gibbons ( in no order) for the rotation roles in center bounces. Oh no worries they are shoe ins for wing spots and HFF roles- well they can compete against LoB ( who can kick teh ball ) Newnes, Williamson, Simpson and Murphy for wing spots - good luck.

Up forward? Can't see Dow or Fisher beating a fit Cuningham/Martin/McGovern for a flank or pocket role...love the Fish when he was focused and playing football in 2018 - didnt recognise him last year...as for Dow a top 4 pick who can't kick and fumbled basic handpasses and missed 2/3 tackles?....

Based on last year's form neither actually gets a jumper in 22 do they?

 

[gbatman]

I really like GBatman’s idea of mcgov to midfield at certain times of need.

I reckon he's a guy who you really want involved in the game. Terrific skills and a super good athlete which we haven't seen yet but I feel we are close to seeing.

Reckon when things aren't working quite as well as we like. Perhaps Cripps isn't in the game or McGovern isn't in the game or we just need more in the middle throw him in there. Lets us send Cripps forward a bit.

We've seen the stay at home forward who likes to jump at the ball and that's a small part of his game. What we haven't seen is the pace, he's really quick and really quick off the mark, he's strong and he likes to be physical and lay a tackle, he's got quite deft skills.

I think he's the player we use as a bit of a reverse Dustin Martin. Particularly if he's playing deep, put him on the ball in the second half of quarters when everyone is a little more tired and let him throw his weight around and give us a target around the middle of the ground.

This new lean and fit McGovern could play pretty much anywhere I reckon.

 

[Accidental genius]

I reckon he's a guy who you really want involved in the game. Terrific skills and a super good athlete which we haven't seen yet but I feel we are close to seeing.

Reckon when things aren't working quite as well as we like. Perhaps Cripps isn't in the game or McGovern isn't in the game or we just need more in the middle throw him in there. Lets us send Cripps forward a bit.

We've seen the stay at home forward who likes to jump at the ball and that's a small part of his game. What we haven't seen is the pace, he's really quick and really quick off the mark, he's strong and he likes to be physical and lay a tackle, he's got quite deft skills.

I think he's the player we use as a bit of a reverse Dustin Martin. Particularly if he's playing deep, put him on the ball in the second half of quarters when everyone is a little more tired and let him throw his weight around and give us a target around the middle of the ground.

This new lean and fit McGovern could play pretty much anywhere I reckon.

He is one of our smartest and most dangerous players. It would be something out of the box and oppo coaches may not have an answer to. Definitely would like trialled at one point.

Setterfield and jack are the other two I would most like to see in there at certain times.

Lots of options to mix things around.

 

[Arr0w]

It's not strange at all but let's not make it stranger than it may be.

Every team strives to find the best set-up and the best options thereafter.
When Teague took over this year, the trio of Cripps, ECurnow and Murphy became the first go-to option. Pretty sure numbers would support that.

We're just in a transitional phase now where ECurnow and Murphy will need to be usurped by better and more viable options.
We jusat don't know what that best set-up will be....what the second preferred option may be...the third etc.

Yes, yes...horses for courses to a point, but your better performed midfielders will get the first call-up. I think this is common sense.

If no other question was to be asked - Which 5 midfielders by years end will be used the most at centre bounces? This alone tells the tale.

People are arguing that it does, in fact, now work that way.
This is influenced both by the 6-6-6 rule, and with Carlton specifically, Teague changing our set-ups in in the second half of the season.

I will let you two bang on about what you think it won't be, rather than making a prediction of what it will be. Not sure why you are so intent to narrow the starting 3 preferred mids when a number of players will rotate through the middle. But you both know none of us know how it will unfold.

Personally I really don't care, as it's not high on my priority list, my wishlist was addressed, more speed and better users by foot, especially between the arcs

 

[windows1]

Will dig out the numbers for who attended centre bounces, but for now, players that had centre clearances

The mainstay mids and of course the rotations

2019 Carlton Total Centre Clearances Leaders

2019 Carlton Total Centre Clearances Leaders.

www.footywire.com

Removing the ruckmen, 19 different players had centre clearances

BTW, Tigers had similar

6 non ruckmen had ten or more clearances. Including the two (Dow and Fish) who had their license revoked mid year. That license was given to Murph and Ed.

The other guys who get in there are token only. Not meaningful.

It should not be seen as ‘lots of rotate’ through there as if it is evenly spread. It isn’t. There are like 4 nominated non duck guys who take the vast bulk of centre bounces at any one time and other guys get token goes through there.

I really like GBatman’s idea of mcgov to midfield at certain times of need.

unfortunately his hands below his knees are nowhere near good enough for that. Will be his only remaining weakness now that he’s fixed his fitness. It happens to be Charlie’s main weakness too. Thank god they can jump.

 

[Robert Heatley]

For someone way more astute than me, there is a whole other discussion about Set ups for around the ground ball up and boundary throw in stoppages.

This will vary depending on whether we are in attack or defence.

We must score more from F50 stoppages and concede less from D50 stoppages.

 

[HARKER]

I will let you two bang on about what you think it won't be, rather than making a prediction of what it will be. Not sure why you are so intent to narrow the starting 3 preferred mids when a number of players will rotate through the middle. But you both know none of us know how it will unfold.

Personally I really don't care, as it's not high on my priority list, my wishlist was addressed, more speed and better users by foot, especially between the arcs

Well, if it's OK with you, may you allow us to bang on as a point of discussion.
Not sure why we need you telling us not to have the discussion because it doesn't suit you and because some sort of 'wish-list' was met.

Centre square stoppages are important, regardless of what others' figures may show and right now we haven't settled on what our opening set-ups may be.
We'll likely not know until the season gets underway, but things will start opening up in the New Year. There's no harm being done here.

For someone way more astute than me, there is a whole other discussion about Set ups for around the ground ball up and boundary throw in stoppages.
This will vary depending on whether we are in attack or defence.
We must score more from F50 stoppages and concede less from D50 stoppages.

Just talking about centre square ball-ups here. 4 vs 4.

We can discuss forwards elsewhere as we can discuss back-men elsewhere also
There's a reason we have a stoppage coach....who coaches stoppages.

 

[Accidental genius]

6 non ruckmen had ten or more clearances. Including the two (Dow and Fish) who had their license revoked mid year. That license was given to Murph and Ed.

The other guys who get in there are token only. Not meaningful.

It should not be seen as ‘lots of rotate’ through there as if it is evenly spread. It isn’t. There are like 4 nominated non duck guys who take the vast bulk of centre bounces at any one time and other guys get token goes through there.

unfortunately his hands below his knees are nowhere near good enough for that. Will be his only remaining weakness now that he’s fixed his fitness. It happens to be Charlie’s main weakness too. Thank god they can jump.

You could be right about mcgov but I would like to see it trialled at one point. Also, he is 4 cm shorter than Cripps so I’m not sure that he will be limited at ground level.

 

[Arr0w]

Well, if it's OK with you, may you allow us to bang on as a point of discussion.
Not sure why we need you telling us not to have the discussion because it doesn't suit you and because some sort of 'wish-list' was met.

Centre square stoppages are important, regardless of what others' figures may show and right now we haven't settled on what our opening set-ups may be.
We'll likely not know until the season gets underway, but things will start opening up in the New Year. There's no harm being done

Not trying to shut down discussion at all, i/many have suggested who and what it would look like, yet refute that without putting forward your own names of either the main mids, possible rotations and then go as far to say that the likes of SPS won't rotate through the middle because he is training with the back line group

Does that sound narrow/controlling/shutting down a discussion?

 

[Bic]

I am keen to see the progression of Paddy Dow. Into his 3rd year where historically a lot of midfielders make the leap (if they're good enough) to stamp themselves into a team.

I keep reminding myself he is a young 20 year old, and will be for the rest of next season, so he could be a 2nd half of the season type bloomer.

I think he offers a point of difference to a lot of our other midfielders, so really hoping he comes on.

 

[Coona Blues]

I am keen to see the progression of Paddy Dow. Into his 3rd year where historically a lot of midfielders make the leap (if they're good enough) to stamp themselves into a team.

I keep reminding myself he is a young 20 year old, and will be for the rest of next season, so he could be a 2nd half of the season type bloomer.

I think he offers a point of difference to a lot of our other midfielders, so really hoping he comes on.

This is the point escaping some of the vociferous individuals on here. The midfield (centre square) will not be anything near a set and forget situation.
Teague used his experienced big guns at the tail end of last season, but it should not be a message to us that this will continue to be the case going forward. Our young mids are developing, and to do so need opportunity. Cripps, Murphy, E.Curnow will play plenty of minutes in there. Walsh and Setterfield are bankable young guns with a profile to put them in the guts in 2020. Dow was a high pick and has some great traits if he can iron out a few issues. He has actually suffered by having too much top 22 game time, he needed to develop at the lower level, and may in fact do so this year. Bottom line, if he can't stake a claim this year, he is of little use on the list. Don't expect him round one though. It should be annunciated to him that he is very much in the plans but likely needs to take a step back and earn it rather than being thrown to the wolves when not ready.

Teague has years to develop this squad. Last season was an audition and a mission to regain faith in the club and the group, there was a non negotiable period. There will be some changes to how we utilise the list. Our profile still has youngsters developing. I have enough faith in Teaguey to expect reward for effort and relatively open doors to the "ones". No doubt they are still working on combination.

We will not be looking to identify 4, 5 or 6 players as our core midfield, we will return to a (better) balance of juggling performance with development and discovery. Stocker, Kennedy, Gibbons, JSOS, Fisher and Cuningham have legitimate claims which need to be put up. Not discussing the newbies yet as the days of immediate games is a thing of the past barring outstanding form.

Some posters want absolutes, categories, pecking orders, it won't happen yet, and I for one am glad.

 

[HBF]

Might be an unpopular opinion but I don’t want Walsh near centre bounces next year.

He was a huge asset on the wing and will only improve as he builds his strength, though I feel he’s still a fair way off competing for 4 quarters at the centre bounce. I don’t want to see us bang him up too much and he is at the moment a class above O’Brien and Newnes who are the prime wing candidates.

Leave that stuff to Cripps, Murphy, Ed, Setters and one of Dow/Stocker/Gibbons/SOJ/Kennedy. IMO of course.

I don't think that is unpopular at all.
We have Cripps, Murphy and Ed to do the majority of the heavy lifting, and we can add guys like Setterfield, Gibbons and a few others into the midfield rotaions as well. Walsh can play on the wing, and go into the actual square from time to time.

 

[iAsbestos]

Gotta play our best midfielders in position can't be playing Dow over Curnow as Bolts did under Tueage he got the right mix with Ed and Murphy in there. Setters is fit and ready for a big inside role