Strategy The midfield

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Jeremias

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There has been a lot of discussion creeping into other threads about our midfield, but it deserves its own thread.

We enter 2020 still reliant on an experienced few, though the depth we have managed to build in this area of the ground is seriously impressive. We now have a glut of talent who could feature prominently, albeit many are very young and require further development.

The proof will as always be in the pudding, but it is very hard to not get excited about what this group may produce in 2020 and beyond, and it all starts in the midfield.

For a while now I have wanted to take a deeper look into our midfield, and 2020 is finally the year to do it.
I will be posting in this thread a weekly update on formations, success rates and any other stats relevant to the midfield debate.

In the meantime, I am keen to hear what you think is our optimal midfield setup come R1 vs the Tigers?
What are your expectations for our midfield group in 2020?
What do you see as the strengths and weaknesses of our midfield options, both individually and as a collective?
Are there any specific types you think we need to target come the player movement period at the end of 2020?

For reference, this is the midfield group we recently voted as being our consensus best 22:

C: Sam Walsh, Patrick Cripps, Will Setterfield
FOL: Matthew Kreuzer, Ed Curnow, Marc Murphy
INT: Sam Petrevski-Seton, Zac Fisher, Jack Newnes

Whether or not you agree with this as being our best setup to start the year, there is no doubt this is a very talented group. Even more telling perhaps is the caliber of footballers who would be waiting in reserve.

Have at it.
 

JustaBattler

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Pretty sure that is what a Jack Martin is for....
You reckon Martin will be playing center flank - ie what I am calling wing - or HF flank? The HFF kick is not a 4-50 meter bullet I was talking about - the only players I've seen execute such kicks into forward 50 are: LoB|Jack|Stocker - no one else so far into forward 50 from around center square..Williamson has theboot to do it - but not from HBF - Simpson has the boot to do it - but not from HBF...Murph can't kick 50 meters ....

anyway..

So a bit like Yarran? Pretty sure we persisted with him in the backline purely for his ability to carry & kick over a press to break the ground open. I think Williamson is going to be pretty good at this if he can get a run of games in
Yarran could do anything on the footy field - I'm still sad about how it all ended up and for him . Yarran was a rare player type - we wont be seeing anything like him AT Carlton on our current list - and I can't think of anyone like him on anyone else's list atm. McLoud like HBFer.. - silk.
 

Arr0w

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This is a bit tedious but one last time - What's the issue?

1. Should we not call players wingmen?
Is this something you'd like to see taken out of the football vocabulary, because I'm hearing a lot more of it and understand why those two of the widest flankers may have a name attached to their roles.

2. Backmen push up the ground and find themselves around the centre. Does this in your world, define them as midfielders also?

3. Forwards push up the ground and find themselves around the centre. Does this in your world, define them as midfielders also?

I've stated my interest and findings in regards to stoppage players, but somehow unless someone is reciting you verbatim, they must be wrong, need to dig deeper, or just aren't really thinking, but when they do - They make too much sense for 'this place' :) Now that's funny....sort of.
Harks please stop feigning and manipulating people's (mine) posts. Never suggested the likes of Plowman or Betts is a mid

You are now backtracking from midfielders to stoppage players, when presented with facts, facts that showed our youth had better results at extracting the ball than our senior players

This is not some school yard footy match where the best players are around the ball constantly

SPS is a midfielder, whether he plays in the guts, wing, HF or HB. Tell me, what would you call him?

What about Setters that has spent time at HB, wing and HF

Your right, labeling a player is becoming very tedious

Why not just say these are the players I prefer in these areas, rather treating people with contempt by saying certain players aren't midfielders so I will label them as flankers and the rest of us should nod like sycophants
 

Stamos

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SPS is a midfielder, whether he plays in the guts, wing, HF or HB. Tell me, what would you call him?
Samo was moved to the backline for the last 7 or 8 games, and from the track watchers’ reports, spent the entire pre-season training with the defence. So I think it’s safe to say, for now, he’s a backman, not a mid (that’s not to say he’s not capable of playing in the midfield, but if he’s not actually in there, he’s not really a mid, is he?)
 

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HARKER

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Samo was moved to the backline for the last 7 or 8 games, and from the track watchers’ reports, spent the entire pre-season training with the defence. So I think it’s safe to say, for now, he’s a backman, not a mid (that’s not to say he’s not capable of playing in the midfield, but if he’s not actually in there, he’s not really a mid, is he?)
Is Jones a forward or a backman?
Is Kennedy a midfielder or a forward?
Is Marchbank a defender or will he become a midfielder (using others' standards)

We're in a game of semantics here and one will find in simple terms, that there are players that extract the ball out of the midfield better than others and capable of racking up serious possession numbers
One can call them inside mids or simply midfielders and then there are the outside mids (or flankers, as I call them)
They can be wingmen.....that have their own set of attributes, or forwards/backmen that just don't fit into being principle mids for one reason or another.

We can all have different interruptions and different views on what it takes to make the individual, but I care for what makes for the better whole.
Let's weigh things up at the end of the year and evaluate what transpires. I see what I see and others can see what they want to see.
Proof...pudding is all that matters. Posturing counts for little.
 

Arr0w

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Samo was moved to the backline for the last 7 or 8 games, and from the track watchers’ reports, spent the entire pre-season training with the defence. So I think it’s safe to say, for now, he’s a backman, not a mid (that’s not to say he’s not capable of playing in the midfield, but if he’s not actually in there, he’s not really a mid, is he?)
Oh okay so if he plays the 2nd half of the year in the midfield we start calling him a mid again?

So last year he was called a midfielder until mid season, then he went back so we then say his only a backman.

Can you see how stupid it is ?
 

Arr0w

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Is Jones a forward or a backman?
Is Kennedy a midfielder or a forward?
Is Marchbank a defender or will he become a midfielder (using others' standards)

We're in a game of semantics here and one will find in simple terms, that there are players that extract the ball out of the midfield better than others and capable of racking up serious possession numbers
One can call them inside mids or simply midfielders and then there are the outside mids (or flankers, as I call them)
They can be wingmen.....that have their own set of attributes, or forwards/backmen that just don't fit into being principle mids for one reason or another.

We can all have different interruptions and different views on what it takes to make the individual, but I care for what makes for the better whole.
Let's weigh things up at the end of the year and evaluate what transpires. I see what I see and others can see what they want to see.
Proof...pudding is all that matters. Posturing counts for little.
You were given proof/pudding and you still ignore it, because it doesn't suit your line of thinking/opinion, but you want others to accept it as the way it will be
 

HARKER

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You were given proof/pudding and you still ignore it, because it doesn't suit your line of thinking/opinion, but you want others to accept it as the way it will be
What proof is that? :)

Proof that Polson will play all games last year?
Proof that small forwards are over-rated?
Proof that Weightman won't be selected in the top 20?
Proof that we won't be seeking small forwards at the end of last year?
Proof that Constable is a top 10 draftee?
Proof that you ALWAYS go best available in the draft? ...and that's just off the top of mu head.

Proof of what exactly? I don't like doing this but given you like to play the man, all your proof to date, has stood for little.....so....we'll wait and see.
 

Arr0w

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What proof is that? :)

Proof that Polson will play all games last year?
Proof that small forwards are over-rated?
Proof that Weightman won't be selected in the top 20?
Proof that we won't be seeking small forwards at the end of last year?
Proof that Constable is a top 10 draftee?
Proof that you ALWAYS go best available in the draft? ...and that's just off the top of mu head.

Proof of what exactly? I don't like doing this but given you like to play the man, all your proof to date, has stood for little.....so....we'll wait and see.
Look at you....

Do you really want to play this game Harks? If so, pick the appropriate thread and we will discuss each point
 

Stamos

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Oh okay so if he plays the 2nd half of the year in the midfield we start calling him a mid again?

So last year he was called a midfielder until mid season, then he went back so we then say his only a backman.

Can you see how stupid it is ?
It’s not stupid at all. If he doesn’t play in the midfield, he’s not a midfielder.

Sure there will be some change in roles. Last year Setters and Levi were genuine utilities. But under Teague, positions were generally much more defined.
 

HARKER

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Look at you....

Do you really want to play this game Harks? If so, pick the appropriate thread and we will discuss each point
It's not a game but pointing out one shouldn't be quite so steadfast on 'opinions'
There are facts and then there are opinions and they shouldn't be confused.

Did you see the article re. Scully on the AFL website yesterday?
Have a look and see what his role was defined by. He was called a wingman....not a midfielder but a wingman.

Players have different abilities and this isn't quite a sport as with many others sports where single defined roles are but I see more of this coming about in the future. Inside players, outside players, running players, stoppage players etc etc and to just call them all midfielders is just a little loose.

Anyway, I see what I see and I can see players' roles becoming more defined and specialist.
I think it's going to go this way and I'm prepared for it and will continue to not pool anyone that doesn't play on last lines, simply as midfielders.
 

Arr0w

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It's not a game but pointing out one shouldn't be quite so steadfast on 'opinions'
There are facts and then there are opinions and they shouldn't be confused.

Did you see the article re. Scully on the AFL website yesterday?
Have a look and see what his role was defined by. He was called a wingman....not a midfielder but a wingman.

Players have different abilities and this isn't quite a sport as with many others sports where single defined roles are but I see more of this coming about in the future. Inside players, outside players, running players, stoppage players etc etc and to just call them all midfielders is just a little loose.

Anyway, I see what I see and I can see players' roles becoming more defined and specialist.
I think it's going to go this way and I'm prepared for it and will continue to not pool anyone that doesn't play on last lines, simply as midfielders.
Okay so your response to my reply has nothing to do with 90% of your salacious claims, but happy to move on at this stage.

Just because the media wants to add a label to the likes of Scully or any other player, doesn't mean it is correct to solely label him as only a wingman

What would you label Edwards at the Tigers given he spent time in all arcs last year?

Go right ahead and label however you want
 

HARKER

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Okay so your response to my reply has nothing to do with 90% of your salacious claims, but happy to move on at this stage.

Just because the media wants to add a label to the likes of Scully or any other player, doesn't mean it is correct to solely label him as only a wingman

What would you label Edwards at the Tigers given he spent time in all arcs last year?

Go right ahead and label however you want
Remember, you the one that came out with the haymakers.

We happen to agree to disagree and nothing I can tell you will change your view and vice versa. This is good and the way it should be.

.......and no one makes too much sense for 'this place' Not you and not me.....we can co-exist :)
 

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Stamos

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Just because the media wants to add a label to the likes of Scully or any other player, doesn't mean it is correct to solely label him as only a wingman
Are you seriously trying to argue that Scully isn't a wingman?
 

Arr0w

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Remember, you the one that came out with the haymakers.

We happen to agree to disagree and nothing I can tell you will change your view and vice versa. This is good and the way it should be.

.......and no one makes too much sense for 'this place' Not you and not me.....we can co-exist :)
From here on end Harks I going to keep you on track in our interactions as you seem to want to deflect when you are called out.

So we start from here

You said the media labelled Scully a wingman, which you seem to agree with

Answer my question, what would you label Edwards, given he had the versatility to play all over the park?
 

HARKER

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From here on end Harks I going to keep you on track in our interactions as you seem to want to deflect when you are called out.
So we start from here
You said the media labelled Scully a wingman, which you seem to agree with
Answer my question, what would you label Edwards, given he had the versatility to play all over the park?
Who's Edwards? I don't watch football. :)


Screen Shot 2020-02-27 at 2.08.06 pm.png



If the RFC tell me he's a defender then maybe they want him to play in defence? Something like that?
 

Arr0w

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Who's Edwards? I don't watch football. :)


View attachment 829988


If the RFC tell me he's a defender then maybe they want him to play in defence? Something like that?
Yet he played through the midfield and forward? How does that happen Harks?

From the exact page you were on:

"Played off the wing and into attack last season where his ability to anticipate the play before it happened set him apart from his contemporaries. Is contracted until the end of 2019"
 

HARKER

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Yet he played through the midfield and forward? How does that happen Harks?

From the exact page you were on:

"Played off the wing and into attack last season where his ability to anticipate the play before it happened set him apart from his contemporaries. Is contracted until the end of 2019"
Like I said; Players have different attributes and some can do this, that and the other thing and some simply cannot.

I'm sure Fyfe could play forward, back and in the centre but we'll remember him as a midfielder.
We may want to call Issac Smith a midfielder too (Hawthorn does) but his attributes are best served running off the flanks.

We're simply playing with terms here and Im happy calling Scully a winger and you want to call him a midfielder.
It's my right to nominate players the way I see their roles playing out in my way and your right to nominate position the way you want to.

Again, I forecast that specific roles will become more refined and important, as we progress in the future but you may say that will never happen.
What to do now?

Answer? Nothing....They're just opinions...opinions....and facts will show up when they show up. No need for a duel to the death on it.
 

Stamos

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Again, I forecast that specific roles will become more refined and important, as we progress in the future but you may say that will never happen.
What to do now?
This has certainly started already.

Whether this is a natural progression of tactics, and/or has come about due to the restrictions on rotations and the 6-6-6 starting positions isn't entirely clear, but it was a trend in 2019, and likely to get stronger.
 

Arr0w

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Like I said; Players have different attributes and some can do this, that and the other thing and some simply cannot.

I'm sure Fyfe could play forward, back and in the centre but we'll remember him as a midfielder.
We may want to call Issac Smith a midfielder too (Hawthorn does) but his attributes are best served running off the flanks.

We're simply playing with terms here and Im happy calling Scully a winger and you want to call him a midfielder.
It's my right to nominate players the way I see their roles playing out in my way and your right to nominate position the way you want to.

Again, I forecast that specific roles will become more refined and important, as we progress in the future but you may say that will never happen.
What to do now?

Answer? Nothing....They're just opinions...opinions....and facts will show up when they show up. No need for a duel to the death on it.
From all these conversations, interactions around labeling you have missed one crucial term

Onballer -- Which embraces inside, outside, balanced, wingmen, HHF/HB. This is how we should describle players that can play multiple roles. Let's make up a fictitious name for him, call him Sidebottom, Edwards, SPS
 

HARKER

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This has certainly started already.

Whether this is a natural progression of tactics, and/or has come about due to the restrictions on rotations and the 6-6-6 starting positions isn't entirely clear, but it was a trend in 2019, and likely to get stronger.
You watch Stamos

We'll never be at NFL levels, but as you say, with more restrictions likely coming in, roles will be fine tuned more and more.

When you think about it, it's quite sloppy that players can be 'educated' across every role.
There will always be changes but the more work one does in one discipline, the better they'll get at it. Does this make sense? It does to me.
 

murphster

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This has certainly started already.

Whether this is a natural progression of tactics, and/or has come about due to the restrictions on rotations and the 6-6-6 starting positions isn't entirely clear, but it was a trend in 2019, and likely to get stronger.
Positions on field used to be extremely defined, forward pocket, back pocket etc the game for whatever reason has gone away from specific designations of position however who knows which way the trend will go we could go back to specific designations or we could go the other way and they all could just be called players with no specifics which is unlikely but feasible.

Although the trend towards players being more versatile tends to lean the way of specific designations being harder to label, although there does seem to be a trend towards a specific wing label so who knows it’s anyone’s guess.
 
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Stamos

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Positions on field used to be extremely defined, forward pocket, back pocket etc the game for whatever reason has gone away from specific designations of position however who knows which way the trend will go we could go back to specific designations or we could go the other way and they all could just be called players with no specifics which is unlikely but feasible.
For sure. 5 or 6 years ago, there were a lot more mids in a 22 than there will be this year.

Purely due to fitness of players, I cannot see it going back to such clearly defined positions as the old days, however the rule changes, and the AFL's wants, will see it being more clearly defined than the high rotation game of a few years ago.
 

HARKER

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For sure. 5 or 6 years ago, there were a lot more mids in a 22 than there will be this year.

Purely due to fitness of players, I cannot see it going back to such clearly defined positions as the old days, however the rule changes, and the AFL's wants, will see it being more clearly defined than the high rotation game of a few years ago.
Watch when we go to 16 players a side.

I see this as being somewhat inevitable, as it fixes many issues and will have the AFL more of a running game than a stoppage one.
It also fixes the pool across what will likely be 20 clubs, as there will be more teams but less players in the premium end of things. There's only a few less players initially, but list sizes will also likely be trimmed.
This then takes care of the fixture, as each team will play each other only once and venues alternate per year.

It won't happen under the guardianship of this administration and maybe not the next one, but when you factor in the whole....it just seems possible.
 

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