IF he is top 15 and he is our number 1 that is why we do so poorly. You wouldn’t expect too many clubs to have too many above another clubs number 1 would you? Look, the stats are 1 thing but interpret them with relativity. Can you tell when O’Bree has turned a game around? We have all seen Buckley or Burns get stuck in and change the course of a game with clearances and sheer force of effort and impact. I can recall a couple of times O’Bree has been important with a couple of goals but how often does he turn a bad game around or make a real impact when we are getting done? Ignoring all that, I still think the way he plays when he is used as a link is counter productive. He runs sideways and in a semi circle because he lacks confidence in his pace and disposal under pressure. I’d rather back Thomas in and trade O’Bree for an upgraded pick and try and draft another quality midfielder. O’Bree is just another flawed footballer that has lasted far too long at Collingwood. His best is good but it is infrequent and fragile. He’s probably had 3 good patches of form over his 7 seasons at Collingwood.
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The midfield
- Thread starter daics cousin
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we do so poorly because he is our only representative in the top50 for clearances, and him and burns at high 30's are the only two in first possie stats, most good clubs have 3,4,5 guys in these list, how is the cheese expected to play a lone hand??
agree with you in this regard that dont really remember cheese coming back and playing a dominant second half if he is soundly beaten in the first
not comparing obree with buckley or burns at their peak, as that is silly. Even back in 02,03 if burns was down, buckley & licca would step it up...now we only have obree, so when in the middle of the year teams started to focus on shutting down cheese we had no plan B, not sure how this is obree's fault tho?
as i said it aint his role, kirk & ball are ordinary users of the ball, but are recognised as great players because they find it in close, well the cheese finds it just as well as these two, so in his role he does well.
i would hope that thomas, pendles, ego, goldsack etc. can all learn to win their fair share of footy so the load is spread, but that is down the track. we need holland, swan, b.johnson, lonie, l.davis, h&r.shaw to pull their fingers out in this regard next year as they have all been around for long enough now
plenty of blokes that should get the boot before obree, he is no buckley or burns, but for what his role is he is good, yeah id love to replace him with judd, kerr and cousins but this aint going to happen. the cheese is our best in and under player, walks straight into my team or we will witness games like the qbday when they lockdown on obree and simply smash the rest of our mids.
O'Bree was our best clearance player last year and our best first possesion winner, to say we should drop him from the team after what is by far his best year when it is exactly the role he plays that our midfield lacks depth in is ludacris!
FIRST POSSESION:
1..Simon Black...7.6
2..Chris Judd...6.7
3..Sam Mitchell...6.6
4..Jobe Watson...6.4
5..Peter Burgoyne...6.2
6..Scott West...5.8
7..Jude Bolton...5.8
8..Brock McLean...5.8
9..Simon Goodwin...5.7
10..Daniel Harris...5.5
11..Daniel Kerr...5.3
12..Luke Hodge...5.3
13..Shaun Burgoyne...5.1
14..Luke Ball...4.9
15..Shane O'Bree...4.8
16..Shane Tuck...4.8
CLEARANCES:
1..Chris Judd...6.5
2..Sam Mitchell...6.0
3..Simon Goodwin...5.4
4..Scott West...5.2
5..Simon Black...5.1
6..Luke Hodge...5.0
7..Shaun Burgoyne...4.9
8..Daniel Kerr...4.8
9..Jude Bolton...4.8
10..Adam Simpson...4.7
11..Brock McLean...4.7
12..Ben Cousins...4.5
13..Peter Burgoyne...4.5
14..Brett Kirk...4.4
15..Shane O'Bree...4.2
16..Nick Dal Santo...4.1
Thats some pretty good company he's keeping for a guy who aught to be dropped!
what we need is another of him, or two!
FIRST POSSESION:
1..Simon Black...7.6
2..Chris Judd...6.7
3..Sam Mitchell...6.6
4..Jobe Watson...6.4
5..Peter Burgoyne...6.2
6..Scott West...5.8
7..Jude Bolton...5.8
8..Brock McLean...5.8
9..Simon Goodwin...5.7
10..Daniel Harris...5.5
11..Daniel Kerr...5.3
12..Luke Hodge...5.3
13..Shaun Burgoyne...5.1
14..Luke Ball...4.9
15..Shane O'Bree...4.8
16..Shane Tuck...4.8
CLEARANCES:
1..Chris Judd...6.5
2..Sam Mitchell...6.0
3..Simon Goodwin...5.4
4..Scott West...5.2
5..Simon Black...5.1
6..Luke Hodge...5.0
7..Shaun Burgoyne...4.9
8..Daniel Kerr...4.8
9..Jude Bolton...4.8
10..Adam Simpson...4.7
11..Brock McLean...4.7
12..Ben Cousins...4.5
13..Peter Burgoyne...4.5
14..Brett Kirk...4.4
15..Shane O'Bree...4.2
16..Nick Dal Santo...4.1
Thats some pretty good company he's keeping for a guy who aught to be dropped!
what we need is another of him, or two!
Thats nothing to get excited about.
There are 13 different teams in that list with only WestCoast Hawthorn and Port Adelaide having a "double up".This is simply a list of the designated ball getters at centre bounces for each team.
Collingwood's designated player is equal with Richmond's (who is only a kid) and ahead of Carlton (wooden spooners), Geelong (who had a shocking year) and Fremantle.
He's ranks behind all the other ten clubs and ranks behind two players at three of those clubs.
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considering we have the worst ruck division in terms of HO's the cheese is doing ok.
The problem is not the cheese, the problem is that last year blokes like holland, licca, swan, johnson didn't help out the cheese and win the footy.
we need a couple of those blokes or some youngsters like thomas, pendles, egan to step up into the top50 in the league, but by getting rid of Obree ur getting rid of our only player who consistently wins plenty of the ball.
Thank you.
It’s nice reading if you want to accept mediocrity.
Ok is, well, ok. Ok is not premiership material which is the real point. Can we win a premiership with O’Bree leading our midfield? Not a chance.
We don’t have worse rucks than St. Kilda and Ball with OP was ahead of O’Bree.
Our best clearance winner was simply not good enough. Put another player in there that wins it and uses it and O’Bree drops back MUCH further down the list and he has limited tricks to fall back on.
As for consistently winning the ball that just isn’t true. He was pretty consistent in 2006. He has been very inconsistent since 2000.
Look the issue is whether we can build a premiership midfield. We just can’t do that by shuffling the deckchairs. We need to replace them. We may have a few up and comers. If they pass O’Bree well and good but where does that leave O’Bree? The reality is we can’t win a flag if he remains one of the main midfielders. The fact he MUST get passed for us to be serious flag contenders is all you need to know. If he was still 21 then things might be different but we have seen everything he is ever going to be able to offer us. It is similar to McKee in the ruck. It doesn’t matter if he was our best option of that he was in the best 16 in the comp. It only matters that we didn’t/couldn’t win a flag with him leading the position for us.
i dont want obree to be our leading midfielder, but ATM he is.
in terms of HO per game we were the worst last year
not really sure that i follow this, u assume that if we have another bloke who can win clearances that obree will suddenly stop winning his?? i reckon it will mean the team simply wins the ball more often.
Yes but why is that such a bad thing? Of course I want the likes of Didak, Pendles, Egan, Thomas, H.Shaw, Swan to develop into our top line midfielders. But as it stands right now heading into 2007 they are all nothing but outside link men, and we already have plenty of them in lonie, b.johnson, lockyer, l.davis etc.
the only bloke who we have that can win the ball is Obree and some people want him not to play!? If surrounded with better players Obree could make up a small piece of a premiership winning midfield, as u need plenty of people who u can put into the middle, but ATM we have only have OBree.
it seems we have moved full circle from being a team that thrived on winning the contested footy, to being a team that plays very loose.
Would you have picked that either Dane Swan and / or Heath Shaw would be the calibre of players they are today prior to the season commencing? I will put money on it that you didn't. Would you have picked that James Clement would be an All Australian backman when he first arrived at our club?
Things change, champ... And I would like to think that the people employed at the club, have a pretty good understanding of the game and know exactly what they are doing. Does that mean that they won't make mistakes? Ofcourse not. Afterall, MarkT you exemplify the word - mistake
Your post, which mind you is quite ironic, is filled with the word - "fact". Evidently you have no idea about facts or football for that matter because these are the facts:
Ranked 15th in Total Handballs
Ranked 12th in Total First Possessions
Ranked 17th in Total Tackles
Ranked 20th in Handballs Per Game
Ranked 15th in First Possessions Per Game
Ranked 15th in Clearances Per Game
Ranked 12th in Total Clearances
Hate to break it to you - football isn't exactly an individual sport, and with those facts ( im sorry I mean stats )
- I would have Obree in my midfield group any day.No. They may well be others that step up. We may have drafted a few guns this year. Every single club is saying exactly the same things right now. Some players on our list will kick on and many wont. If we significantly outperform the averages we might improve enough to more than offset pending losses and at the same time address a couple of deficiencies. All I can go on is what I see relative to the competition.
Yes things sure do change. Not much has actually changed on field at our club nor in the excuses we make for that for a long time. Nevertheless you are right, things can change quickly – for better and for worse. Banking on manner from heaven though is not likely to get us a premiership. It hasn’t thus far.Things change, champ... And I would like to think that the people employed at the club, have a pretty good understanding of the game and know exactly what they are doing. Does that mean that they won't make mistakes? Ofcourse not. Afterall, MarkT you exemplify the word - mistake
That is our leading midfielder and they are his career best stats by a margin. Guess what – it’s the best time to sell. He is still slow and poorly skilled in a midfield that needs a liberal dose of speed and skill.
Your midfield group perhaps. I want one that wion a premiership though. When he was part of a midfield group that included Buckley, Burns and Licuria at their peak how did he and we fare? Do you think other teams target O’Bree? How many times was he heavily tagged over the last few year? Not even Sydney worry about him.Hate to break it to you - football isn't exactly an individual sport, and with those facts ( im sorry I mean stats )
That’s not relevant. All that is relevant is whether he is a premiership midfielder. You say yes and I say no. How did he go in a couple of grand finals? How is his overall finals record?
I am the last person you have to convince that our rucks are not up to scratch or that better rucks would improve the midfield. That doesn’t mean O’Bree doesn’t hold up the paly when he links or that I wouldn’t rather other midfield options with better pace, skill and career consistency.
How many clearance winning midfielders do you think are going to be in the middle at any one time?
And a bloke that at best 4th in line has become the best while we have slipped backwards. That is how it works. If you best get superseded by new players while remaining quality players themselves you improve. If your best slip a notch and the rest of the deck chairs get shuffled you slip back.. This happened to us in the ruck and the midfield. We may well not get a better player than O’Bree to replace him and that may well cause us to drop back a bit. That just means we can’t recruit/trade for position well enough. It isn’t a reason to stick with a losing formula. That’s the argument some use to retain Malthouse. Who knows if we appointed a first time coach whether he’d be better or worse? The only relevant consideration should be is the incumbent the man who will deliver a flag. That is the analysis for every position at this point because we won’t a flag with this squad and/or coach.
Where are we deficient? IMO coaching, list ,management, the ruck and the midfield. Much of that is connected.
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amen to that he is clueless.the games in the second half of the year i saw Obree was getting tagged by the opposition.there must be reason for thatWould you have picked that either Dane Swan and / or Heath Shaw would be the calibre of players they are today prior to the season commencing? I will put money on it that you didn't. Would you have picked that James Clement would be an All Australian backman when he first arrived at our club?
Things change, champ... And I would like to think that the people employed at the club, have a pretty good understanding of the game and know exactly what they are doing. Does that mean that they won't make mistakes? Ofcourse not. Afterall, MarkT you exemplify the word - mistake
Your post, which mind you is quite ironic, is filled with the word - "fact". Evidently you have no idea about facts or football for that matter because these are the facts:
Ranked 15th in Total Handballs
Ranked 12th in Total First Possessions
Ranked 17th in Total Tackles
Ranked 20th in Handballs Per Game
Ranked 15th in First Possessions Per Game
Ranked 15th in Clearances Per Game
Ranked 12th in Total Clearances
Hate to break it to you - football isn't exactly an individual sport, and with those facts ( im sorry I mean stats )
I won't, we need another guy who can consistantly win us first possesion, dogs have west and cross, theres judd and kerr, the burgoynes, mitchel and west, etc, etc, MarkT asked how many first possesion winners you want in the square, I reckon you want two, and maybe a third guy who can do it at a pinch, ala Buckly, Burns and O'Bree in days of yore. The idea that winning first possesion is simply something you can designate anyone to do and they will rack them up is flat out wrong, if you are the 'designated' guy asked to get first dibs ahead of West, Black, Judd, Kerr, Cross, Mclean, then you had better hope that you have some ability to find it, grab it off the deck and get rid of it, O'Bree was better at that in 06 than anyone else on our list and that is why he was 'designated' if Heath Shaw or Swan or both can start doing that too then great!
Just on the midfield thing, we are in much better shape than we have been for a while I reckon;
A midfield in my book has six guys, the ruck, two wings and three in the square, at least one and preferably two guys in the square should be able to get first possession from the tap by the ruckman, the third guy aught to have the skill to receive off the deck and get it forward by either a kick ala Bucks, or a burst of pace out of congestion ala Judd or a quick fire handpass into space ala Pendlebury, the wingers should be able to sweep up and receive that ball from out of the congestion and dispose long to advantage.
Our 'plodder' midfield had those six
THE OLD GUARD:
Fraser.......your tapman
Buckley.....your reciever
Burns........first dibber number 1
O'Bree.......first dibber number 2
Licuria.......flanker number 1
Holland......flanker number 2
now Fraser isn't yet the greatest tap, though he is still fairly young in terms of a ruckman, Bucks is Bucks, Burns and O'Bree arn't lighning fast and O'Bree isn't the best kick but they are both good at what they do, Holland and Licca are toilers with the ability to negate, and also to pinch hit in heavy traffic.
now, there is a next generation of players who we are all (I hope) hoping will step up to be able to play those roles;
Richards....hopefully stays injury free and steps up
Lockyer....underrated and hated by fans, but can play
Didak........could be anything if his knee fully heals and he takes the next step
Johnson....certaintly kicks to advantage
Rhyce.......fast
Lonie.....very outside, but very damaging kick
now what that group lacks is exactly what O'Bree has, the ability to get the footy off the deck, they can all dispose of it (apart from Rhyce), they can all run fast (apart from Lockyer).
Beyond that we have out new recruits;
Bryan.......who knows what he could do in his 3rd year in AFL, 05 was ace.
Thomas.....will be a champ
Heath.......good prospect for first dibs style player
Pendles.....another who could be a first possession winner
Swan.......stepped up in 06
Egan.......lots of potential as a silky outside type
now these guys are pretty promising, I reckon Thomas, Swan, Heath and Pendles can all get thier own footy, so maybe here we have our next first dibs footballer for the midfield, who it will be, I can't say, but I am sure MM and Co are hoping at least one of them step up to be the Cross to O'Bree's West in 07.
finally we have some more longshots out on the fringes of possibility in terms of the immediate future;
Reid...........if he grows a cm or 3
Medhurst....if he turns out to have the tank and the ability
Davis.........probably too useful to us as a FP to be other than a pinch hitter
Iles............being groomed as a back pocket, but has played as a mid
Nicholls.......small but looked good at Willi this year
Davies........gets a fair bit of footy, just needs to polish his game bit more
and then there is
Cloke.....if it's true that he's grown a bit, he could give ruck a crack
Clarke....big wraps on the lad from ireland
Wellingham
********
Macaffer
Cook
and then there are;
Stanley
Goldsack
guys who at the mo look more like utility types to me, but could be mids as well.
So basically I guess my point is that we have a lot of potential midfield combinations in the system, certaintly more options than we have yet seen play through there, and 07 should be an interesting year to watch our midfield, we may not be as far away as some on this board are suggesting.
i guess we will know in a little under a years time.
Really? Wasn't it Melbourne who said - Stop O'Bree and you stop Collingwood. Now considering that we were 4th for most of the year I think thats indicative of Obree's importance to our club. And its interesting that you brought up Sydney as the team that doesn't respect Obree... I believe we beat them in Sydney - did we not? And it was Melbourne who absolutely thrashed us.
All you can go on is what you see relative to the competition, yet the stats indicate that in relation to other midfielders in the league he has produced this year. Thats a FACT.
You've mentioned that we cant win a flag with O'Bree as one of our midfielders. How do you know that? Give me the FACTS that say - "If the Collingwood Football club keeps Shane Obree they will never win a flag!"
The fact of the matter is that you cant.
at the moment he is not a premiership midfielder, but schneider and buchanan are!! Buckley, Harvey, West aren't premiership midfielders either unfort.
i think that he has shown he can produce at the same levels as the guns in the league like kirk, ball etc. who are "respected" hard nuts of the game, perhaps not the most skilled but are good at what they do, ie getting the ball!
aware of ur issue with the rucks, then u may realise how much harder it would be for our only inside mid to actually try and get the ball out of the middle!
we already have plenty of blokes with good pace and skill, didak, johnson, swan, h.shaw, lonie, egan, thomas, pendles.......we need inside mids who will win the hard ball
would be good to try to have a couple in at most centre bounces, i would want to have 4 players ranked in the top50 in clearance stats playing in my team so that a couple would be around almost every contest so we win more then we lose and get the ball moving our way.
??? if trading we wouldn't get a bloke who can produce what obree did,ie blokes like s.tuck from richmond, d.harris from the kangas, p.bell from freo, l.ball from the aints he produced at their level last year....so why would we want to trade away our only good inside mid???
well u seem to think that we have a pretty weak list, so malthouse must actually coach well! he may not be the best at list management but he gets the best out of what he has!
we are deficient in the ruck department, because richards is constantly injured, hall, fanning, c.cloke, walker all not up to scratch and fraser cant do it on his own.
we are deficient in the hard inside midfielders, with bucks, burns coming to the end and licuria, holland having poor seasons last year we were exposed. Need two of these guys to step into the breach next year, licca, pendles, b.johnson, egan, cox, would like to see harry o be given a try in at some centres contests during pre-season, as he has a big presence about him he could do some good heavy work inside, but does he have the smarts to know how to read the game yet?? so find out in some intra-club, pre season games.
those are our only two weaknesses i think, we have speed thru the middle now, plenty of options up forward, plenty of cover down back
We can win a premiership with O'Bree in our 22, in fact we can win with him while he's in our best 18. But while he remains our best (only????) ballgetter at the clearances, we have no hope.
I dont want him to not play, I just dont want him to be our first choice inside midfielder. The sooner that day comes the sooner we'll be a better team.
Ok can we just sum it up as we have finished 13th, 15th and 7th and all we need is another 2 O’Brees and if you are really pessimistic a bit of help for Josh in the ruck.
FMD people we have a midfield that is too slow, poorly skilled and soft. Because our best 2 midfielders are finished as full time mids and our 3rd best has really struggled meaning our fourth or fifth best (I rate Holland ahead of O’Bree) who is out statted by the ball getter at almost every other club, has to be our number 1 mid.
Just what is it that has seen us finish 13th, 15th and 7th? They are the facts that count pro.
FMD people we have a midfield that is too slow, poorly skilled and soft. Because our best 2 midfielders are finished as full time mids and our 3rd best has really struggled meaning our fourth or fifth best (I rate Holland ahead of O’Bree) who is out statted by the ball getter at almost every other club, has to be our number 1 mid.
Just what is it that has seen us finish 13th, 15th and 7th? They are the facts that count pro.
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think we are on the same page, i would have obree in my team every game in 2007, but want a couple of other blokes to push past him.
i dont think our midfield is that slow, now that buckley, burns, lockyer are not our prime movers anymore we are not slow.
licca, obree would be our slowest two players, but apart from them the rest are pretty quick, swan, johnson, holland, r & h.shaw, pendles, lonie, thomas, davis, egan, didak
we just need a couple of these guys to turn into good ball winners, as they already carry the ball well once we get it.
7th is about where i rate our list, if a couple of the mentioned midfielders can step it up this year and josh & richards/bryan can win some quality HO's we are not too far away, as the comp is bloody even
Of course we are slow. Did you see how the Dogs ran away from us? Even Malthouse said at the AGM they recognised the lack of pace. Rhyce Shaw is quick. Davis can be quick. Neither get enough of the ball or are hard at it. Johnson has a bit of tow and a bit of go. The problem is all our midfielders have deficiencies that hurt us and they collectively add up to an overall pace, skill and hardness deficiency. Unless we exit a few and replace with target player types we won’t go anywhere.
I agree we are around about a 7th side. That’s far too far away and more so when you consider the imminent departures. We need a large push from half a dozen players to tread water when you remove Wakelin, Buckley and Burns and then Licuria, Clement, Rocca and Presti from the picture. If our front and back strengths come back to the field a bit we will look worst for our underpowered midfield.
As it stands now though we have one of the worst midfields in the comp. and part of the reason is O’Bree is one of the main men let alone the one people are hanging their hats on.
I agree we are around about a 7th side. That’s far too far away and more so when you consider the imminent departures. We need a large push from half a dozen players to tread water when you remove Wakelin, Buckley and Burns and then Licuria, Clement, Rocca and Presti from the picture. If our front and back strengths come back to the field a bit we will look worst for our underpowered midfield.
As it stands now though we have one of the worst midfields in the comp. and part of the reason is O’Bree is one of the main men let alone the one people are hanging their hats on.
We are definitely slow but recruiting over the past 2-3 years will hopefully address that. I'm expecting an orderly transition in our midfield from the experienced but slow big bodies of Licuria Burns O'Bree Holland and Buckley to quicker ball carriers like Didak Johnson Pendlebury H Shaw R Shaw Egan Nicholls Swan Iles Thomas and younger draftees from this year like Dikk and Goldsack.
Our midfield is definitely mid-table, but rapid improvement is on the cards with the list we are building. All we need is a superstar or two to develop to cover the loss of Buckley, and with Didak and Thomas and possibly H Shaw we have that potential.
Our midfield is definitely mid-table, but rapid improvement is on the cards with the list we are building. All we need is a superstar or two to develop to cover the loss of Buckley, and with Didak and Thomas and possibly H Shaw we have that potential.
The dogs are the quickest team going around, of course we will look slow against them. But in comparison to most sides we are not slow, we lack ball winners.
The imminent departures are, wakelin who struggled to get a game and will again in 07, burns who is a role player off the bench these days, and buckley well u cant replace him but at least he isn't the dominant player anymore.
clement, presti, rocca, licca all have at least 3 quality seasons left in em i reckon, by then hopefully t.cloke, rusling, ja, reid, brown, dawes will be ready to assume the KP spots vacated, and thomas, pendlebury, didak, h.shaw, swan, b.johnson being the major midfield team
i agree our midfield is our weakness, but obree isn't a weakness IMO
Look the Dogs were under manned and the side they fielded was young, inexperienced, short and not physically strong and with pace and footskills as weapons they made us look second rate. You work it out. It’s not like it was a bolt from the blue. We struggle to keep up a lot of sides. We smashed Geelong who are also slow. Pace in the midfield, apart from the ruck, has been our achillis heel for years. We are probably getting quicker with the turnover but so is everyone else. To be quick these days you need a couple of really quick mids. That is what recruiters are targeting. Having a quick ruckman doesn’t help much.
You can paint it anyway you like but as far as the midfield goes we have to accept that for 2 to 3 years Buckley, Burns and Licuria have been on the decline and no one has gone close to filling the void. That O’Bree has become a linchpin is entirely symptomatic of our plight.
You can paint it anyway you like but as far as the midfield goes we have to accept that for 2 to 3 years Buckley, Burns and Licuria have been on the decline and no one has gone close to filling the void. That O’Bree has become a linchpin is entirely symptomatic of our plight.
