The most important metric when judging a player's career ?

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It's a flawed award, but if I had to pick only one metric to judge an entire career, it would have to be All Australian selections. Not every great player plays a lot of finals, or ever wins a Brownlow, and Brownlow votes are even more flawed.

I would have said AFLCA votes, but that award hasn't been around for long enough yet to span many illustrious careers so it's difficult to compare players. Club B&Fs doesn't really tell you anything about their standing in the league.
 

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I asked ChatGPT who is the best AFL player of all time and this is what it said

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It is subjective to say who the best player in the history of the Australian Football League (AFL) is, as different players have excelled in different areas of the game. However, some of the most highly regarded players in the history of the AFL include:

  • Wayne Carey, who is considered one of the greatest key forwards of all time
  • Leigh Matthews, who is regarded as one of the greatest midfielders in the history of the sport
  • Gary Ablett Sr. and Jr. are considered among the best midfielders to have played the game
  • Jimmy Bartel, who is considered one of the greatest midfielders to have played the game
Other players who are considered among the best in the history of the AFL include:

  • Tony Lockett, one of the greatest full-forwards of all time
  • Adam Goodes, who is considered one of the greatest midfielders to have played the game
  • Nick Riewoldt, who is considered one of the greatest full-forwards to have played the game
This list is not exhaustive and there are many other great players who have played the game throughout the history of the AFL.

--------------------------------

and what I learned from that response is somehow Jimmy Bartel is the one that created ChatGPT.
 
1. Performing consistently well in finals. It's no good racking up SuperCoach points against the easybeats if you go missing when it really counts. You've got to be able stand up in the big games.

2. Providing a big contribution towards winning a premiership. Whether their team achieves it or not is another thing, but did they make a difference to their team going deep into September? And if they played on losing teams and rarely played in finals, what a waste! The whole point of playing is to win.

3. The respect they garner from their teammates and coaches. Were they dependable? Did they get the absolute best out of themselves? Not everyone is born with superstar ability & talent. I think we overrate the guys who periodically play like superstars. I value the dependable guys who play well every week and leave nothing in the tank.


Example: Liam Shiels never got close to winning any individual awards, but he put his body on the line every week for the Hawks for 255 games over 14 years. He was all about the team and sacrificed his game to make others look good. He was never captain, but he was a leader nonetheless. He played in 3 premierships and has the full respect of his teammates & coaches, as well his opponents and ex-players in the media.

People on Big Footy probably view him as a non-entity due to his lack of individual awards. But you can shove all that up your arse. It's got nothing to do with how a player's career should be judged.

Most of the individual awards & player honours are pretty meaningless, if you ask me. It's just opinions. Not gospel.

Don't get me wrong... Everyone who won a Brownlow, MVP, Norm Smith or an All Australian jacket played well. They don't give them to anyone. By the same token, there have been plenty of equally deserving players who missed out. So why do people wanna give all the glory to the award winners and give nothing to the guys who played just as well, but who missed out on getting a trophy? And what about the vast majority of AFL players who aren't superstars? How do you judge them?
 
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Back One Out said:
1. Performing consistently well in finals. It's no good racking up SuperCoach points against the easybeats if you go missing when it really counts. You've got to be able stand up in the big games.

2. Providing a big contribution towards winning a premiership. Whether their team achieves it or not is another thing, but did they make a difference to their team going deep into September? And if they played on losing teams and rarely played in finals, what a waste! The whole point of playing is to win.

3. The respect they garner from their teammates and coaches. Were they dependable? Did they get the absolute best out of themselves? Not everyone is born with superstar ability & talent. I think we overrate the guys who periodically play like superstars. I value the dependable guys who play well every week and leave nothing in the tank.
Click to expand...

What about Tony Lockett? He barely played in any finals so according to that criteria he can't be rated as one of the all time greats.
 
DanWA said:
Correct but he has a solid career with individual awards and AA
Click to expand...
Plenty a champion never savoured a premiership - Lockett, Ablett Senior, Nick Riewoldt, Robert Flower, to name 4. And you genuinely believe Quinton Lynch is better because he happened to play in a premiership team?
 
IMO premiership success needs to weighted low when judging a player’s career because through no fault of the player he could be surrounded by spuds and never play in a premiership. Look at Bobby Skilton - triple Brownlow medalist and one of the great rovers but played in teams that were never going to play in a GF. Was that his fault? Of course not.

My criteria and weighting in order:

  • Personal achievements, e.g., B&F’s, AA, Brownlow medal, media awards - 40%
  • The player’s legacy and standing in the game. In modern day football we all know who were the champions - 30%
  • Statistics, e.g., goals, possessions, goal assists, etc. - 20%
  • Contribution to finals success - 10%
 
RUNVS said:
What about Tony Lockett? He barely played in any finals so according to that criteria he can't be rated as one of the all time greats.
Click to expand...
False.
  1. Plugger performed consistently well in finals
  2. He did more than anyone from St Kilda & Sydney (except maybe P.Kelly) to carry his team towards a flag.
  3. He commanded full respect from team-mates, coaches and opponents


1991... Plugger kicked 127 goals from 17 games... St Kilda finished 4th on the ladder with 14 wins.
They played Geelong (3rd, 16 wins) in the Elimination Final under Ken McIntyre's flawed Top 6 finals system

EF... St K 14.13 (97) Geel 15.14 (104)... Lockett 9 goals, 5 behinds



1992... Plugger kicked 132 goals from 22 games... St Kilda finished 6th on the ladder with 14 wins.

EF... Coll 12.11 (83) St K 13.13 (91)... Lockett 5 goals, 3 behinds
SF... W.B 19.5 (119) St K 14.6 (90)... Lockett 4 goals, 1 behind



1996... Plugger kicked 121 goals from 22 games... Sydney finished on top of the ladder.

QF... Syd 13.12 (90) Haw 12.12 (84).. Lockett DNP
PF... Syd 10.10 (70) Ess 10.9 (69)..... Lockett 1 goal, 3 behinds <-- (inc. match winning point after siren from 60m)
GF... Syd 13.10 (88) NM 19.17 (131).. Lockett 6 goals, 1 behind



1997... Plugger kicked 37 goals from 12 games... Sydney finished 6th with 12 wins

EF... W.B 18.11 (119) Syd 12.12 (84)... Lockett 3 goals, 3 behinds



1998... Plugger kicked 109 goals from 23 games... Sydney finished 6th with 12 wins

EF... Syd 12.17 (89) St K 13.9 (87)... Lockett 1 goal, 2 behinds
SF... Syd 10.7 (67) Adel 14.10 (94).... Lockett 1 goal



1999... Plugger kicked 82 goals from 19 games... Sydney finished 8th with 11 wins

EF... Ess 18.15 (123) Syd 7.12 (54)... Lockett 5 goals, 3 behinds



Lockett competed in six finals series, booting 35 goals from 9 finals. Apart from '97, he played the lead role in his team getting there. He carried the forward line in those seasons for the Saints & Swans with 3 Coleman Medals (Runner up in '92 with 132 goals.) Stewie Loewe kicked 43 goals in '91 and 45 in '92... Craig O'Brien kicked 34 goals in '96 and Mick O'Loughlin kicked 40 goals in '98. Nobody else kicked 30+.
 
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Sttew said:
Plenty a champion never savoured a premiership - Lockett, Ablett Senior, Nick Riewoldt, Robert Flower, to name 4. And you genuinely believe Quinton Lynch is better because he happened to play in a premiership team?
Click to expand...
This is not about better this thread is about metrics judging a career

IMO premiership is #1
 

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RUNVS said:
I asked ChatGPT who is the best AFL player of all time and this is what it said

-----------------------------------

It is subjective to say who the best player in the history of the Australian Football League (AFL) is, as different players have excelled in different areas of the game. However, some of the most highly regarded players in the history of the AFL include:

  • Wayne Carey, who is considered one of the greatest key forwards of all time
  • Leigh Matthews, who is regarded as one of the greatest midfielders in the history of the sport
  • Gary Ablett Sr. and Jr. are considered among the best midfielders to have played the game
  • Jimmy Bartel, who is considered one of the greatest midfielders to have played the game
Other players who are considered among the best in the history of the AFL include:

  • Tony Lockett, one of the greatest full-forwards of all time
  • Adam Goodes, who is considered one of the greatest midfielders to have played the game
  • Nick Riewoldt, who is considered one of the greatest full-forwards to have played the game
This list is not exhaustive and there are many other great players who have played the game throughout the history of the AFL.

--------------------------------

and what I learned from that response is somehow Jimmy Bartel is the one that created ChatGPT.
Click to expand...
And Adam Goodes was a mid and Nick Riewoldt was a full forward
 
Sttew said:
IMO premiership success needs to weighted low when judging a player’s career because through no fault of the player he could be surrounded by spuds and never play in a premiership. Look at Bobby Skilton - triple Brownlow medalist and one of the great rovers but played in teams that were never going to play in a GF. Was that his fault? Of course not.

My criteria and weighting in order:

  • Personal achievements, e.g., B&F’s, AA, Brownlow medal, media awards - 40%
  • The player’s legacy and standing in the game. In modern day football we all know who were the champions - 30%
  • Statistics, e.g., goals, possessions, goal assists, etc. - 20%
  • Contribution to finals success - 10%
Click to expand...
Rubbish.

Just because a handful of all-time greats were starved of finals success, it doesn't mean we should overlook the enormous contributions made by players to help their club achieve the ultimate prize.

Listen to the players and coaches: they all say the same thing. They play the game to win finals and to win a premiership. It dwarfs everything else. They all say the individual awards are nice little trinkets, but they mean nothing in the overall context of the game. Bob Skilton famously said he would trade his 3 Brownlow away just to have played in a winning final.

The typical argument against premierships in these discussions is bogus (e.g. Gary Ablett 0, Aaron Keating 1). Nobody ever compared Gary Ablett to Aaron f**king Keating. But when we're comparing the champion forwards, it's definitely a feather in Dunstall's cap that he played a starring role in 4 premierships (Best and fairest: 1988, 1989... 6 goals in the '86 GF, 7 goals in '91 GF). As good as Ablett was, he probably cost Geelong a premiership with his "no shows" in the 92, 94 and 95 Grand Finals... (in addition to quitting on his team in 1991 and getting rubbed out in that year's finals.)

Dunstall wasn't the sole reason why Hawthorn won 4 premierships from 1986-1991. He played in a great team. But he was probably the biggest reason why the Hawks won 4 flags with him as the spearhead.

Sam Mitchell and Luke Hodge dominated the Hawthorn midfield throughout the Clarkson dynasty and were the lynchpins in 4 premierships. As far as individual awards go, they both made the All Australian team only 3 times (the same number of times as Matthew Boyd, Dan Hannebery, Travis Boak and Brendon Fevola). No disrespect to those others - all good players - but none of their careers even compares to Hodge & Mitchell.


I think it's lunacy to overlook the contributions made by star players to their team's premiership success.

The players all say that's the thing which drives them; the reason why they play the game and make all the sacrifices they do.

They don't care about making the All Australian team.
 
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Fwds - Colemans

Backs/Rucks - AAs

Mids - Brownlow/MVP/Coaches

*Bonus points for Norm Smiths and Gary Ayers awards
 
Back One Out said:
Rubbish.

Just because a handful of all-time greats were starved of finals success, it doesn't mean we should overlook the enormous contributions made by players to help their club achieve the ultimate prize.

Listen to the players and coaches: they all say the same thing. They play the game to win finals and to win a premiership. It dwarfs everything else. They all say the individual awards are nice little trinkets, but they mean nothing in the overall context of the game. Bob Skilton famously said he would trade his 3 Brownlow away just to have played in a winning final.

I think it's lunacy to overlook the contributions made by star players to their team's premiership success.

The players all say that's the thing which drives them; the reason why they play the game and make all the sacrifices they do.

They don't care about making the All Australian team.
Click to expand...
As I posted it was my opinion, and I didn’t say we overlook contribution to premiership success did I?

Where do you rate Nick Riewoldt, Bobby Skilton, Matthew Richardson and Robbie Flower?

Of course players say the thing that drives them is the premiership, but every year at least 10 teams know they have no chance of winning the cup and as we have seen many teams have been premiership-less for an entire generation or more.
 
Back One Out said:
Rubbish.

Just because a handful of all-time greats were starved of finals success, it doesn't mean we should overlook the enormous contributions made by players to help their club achieve the ultimate prize.

Listen to the players and coaches: they all say the same thing. They play the game to win finals and to win a premiership. It dwarfs everything else. They all say the individual awards are nice little trinkets, but they mean nothing in the overall context of the game. Bob Skilton famously said he would trade his 3 Brownlow away just to have played in a winning final.

The typical argument against premierships in these discussions is bogus (e.g. Gary Ablett 0, Aaron Keating 1). Nobody ever compared Gary Ablett to Aaron f**king Keating. But when we're comparing the champion forwards, it's definitely a feather in Dunstall's cap that he played a starring role in 4 premierships (Best and fairest: 1988, 1989... 6 goals in the '86 GF, 7 goals in '91 GF). As good as Ablett was, he probably cost Geelong a premiership with his "no shows" in the 92, 94 and 95 Grand Finals... (in addition to quitting on his team in 1991 and getting rubbed out in that year's finals.)

Dunstall wasn't the sole reason why Hawthorn won 4 premierships from 1986-1991. He played in a great team. But he was probably the biggest reason why the Hawks won 4 flags with him as the spearhead.

Sam Mitchell and Luke Hodge dominated the Hawthorn midfield throughout the Clarkson dynasty and were the lynchpins in 4 premierships. As far as individual awards go, they both made the All Australian team only 3 times (the same number of times as Matthew Boyd, Dan Hannebery, Travis Boak and Brendon Fevola). No disrespect to those others - all good players - but none of their careers even compares to Hodge & Mitchell.


I think it's lunacy to overlook the contributions made by star players to their team's premiership success.

The players all say that's the thing which drives them; the reason why they play the game and make all the sacrifices they do.

They don't care about making the All Australian team.
Click to expand...
So based on this you're suggesting it's a no-brainer that Dunstall is rated ahead of Ablett Snr in the GOAT discussions?

Because I suspect you'd be in the vast minority there...
 
Fadge said:
So based on this you're suggesting it's a no-brainer that Dunstall is rated ahead of Ablett Snr in the GOAT discussions?

Because I suspect you'd be in the vast minority there...
Click to expand...
I'm not saying it's a "no brainer". It's probably much closer than what you think, but this is not what I'm saying...

When we evaluate the careers of superstars like Ablett and Dunstall, we should also take into account how they contributed to their club's premiership campaigns and whether they managed to deliver the flag or not. I think you'd be stupid to overlook that.

It's not the only way of measuring a player's worth. I never claimed that. But I think a gun player's contribution to premierships or their poor finals efforts are a hell of a lot more pertinent than how many AA blazers they have, or whether they finished 1st in the Brownlow count (as opposed to 2nd, 3rd, or 4th)

----------------------------------------------------

People in this thread seem to think AA selections are an infallible "metric". All Australian selection is more contingent on team success than ANY other individual award. Every year, the 22 selections are dominated by players from the top 8 clubs, while equally deserving players from struggling teams are snubbed. It's not some scientific measurement of the AFL's best 22 players - it's the biased opinions of commentators who are swayed by the performances of good players from winning teams.

Most individual awards are like that. Silly to pretend otherwise.

All I'm saying is that if we're going to use medals & awards as "metrics", then we should also use premiership medals.

---------------------------------------------------------

Tom Mitchell... 1 x Brownlow Medal.... 1 x MVP.... 2 x All Australian... 3 x Best and Fairest... 0 x Premierships
Dion Prestia... 0 x Brownlow Medals... 0 x MVPs... 0 x All Australian... 1 x Best and Fairest... 3 x Premierships


Using Sttew's formula, Titch is clearly a better player than Prestia

I'm not saying Prestia is better. I'm saying Mitchell's awards are largely meaningless compared to Prestia's efforts in helping Richmond win 3 flags.

I'd say it's pretty close between them in the final wash-up.


---------------------------------------------------------


Dunstall produced the goods in multiple premiership seasons. He delivered in multiple finals series and in multiple Grand Finals. That's a huge PLUS in his favour, however you want to rate him. Why would you overlook that?

Ablett became a legend with his incredible performances in the 1989 finals series and his 9 goals in the Grand Final. This elevated him into the GOAT discussions. But this was offset by his patchy performances in subsequent finals (as well as his mental issues in 1991.) So however you wanna rate Ablett on your list of all-time greats, the fact he wasn't able to deliver Geelong a premiership is a definite MINUS. It wasn't all on him. Malcolm Blight didn't exactly prioritise defence... The Geelong key backs were iffy and their mids were downhill skiers. But Ablett has to wear some of the blame. We can't just look the other way and pretend his failures never happened.

In my eyes , Wayne Carey was a better footballer than both Ablett and Lockett. All of them won MVPs and had a squillion AA selections... My opinion was chiefly aided by the way Carey led North to 2 flags, not just with his dominant on-field performances, but also with his leadership on and off the field. North had some good players in the 90's, but they were hardly an all-star team. Carey wasn't just a brilliant footballer, but a strong personality and a strong trainer who embodied Pagan's football philosophies. I reckon many of his teammates got swept along with him for the ride.

Compare that to Gary Ablett being given the green light to skip training sessions, or Plugger Lockett's unprofessional approach while at St Kilda. They might've been legendary superstars who kicked big bags of goals, but their individualistic selfish attitudes and poor training habits hindered their team in other ways.

It's worth remembering the Saints actually became a better team after Plugger left. Not saying that's all his fault. There are many factors: change of coaches, new kids emerging, etc... But you would think the Saints would've fallen into the abyss after the game's greatest goal kicker left them... Except they didn't... A couple of years later, they finished on top of the ladder and went into half time of the Grand Final looking like premiers.

They probably would've won a flag if Plugger had stayed loyal and resisted the AFL/Swans coin (but that's a whole other can of worms...:))
 
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Whilst it's unfair on players who don't get the opportunity, I think most football supporters will always look back favourable on players who performed well in finals - it can massively elevate a reputation (or destroy one)

However if we're objectively judging careers I agree with many previous posts that mention AA, BnF, Coaches Awards, games played etc..
 
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