The National Curriculum - Rainbow Serpents and other things.

btdg

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The curriculum has been made available

http://www.theage.com.au/pdf/ScienceK-10.pdf

Presenting 'aboriginal observations' as part of the history of science is scandalous. It is not science to believe that Almudj the Rainbow Serpent brings forth the wet season

But the curriculum goes further than that - it is suggesting that the observations contribute to our current scientific knowledge.



I really can't see CSIRO meteorological forecasts ever including aborigine observations. We can respect and learn about Aborigine traditions but they don't belong in the science curriculum.
I see no issues with that document at all. One third of the prescribed curriculum (that will in practice probably make up one sixth of class time), focuses on the epistemology of science, looking at, amongst other things, the history of science, science careers, the nature of scientific research, and the cultural position of science. The cultural component relates to one sixth of that. Aboriginal traditions might get mentioned once in 6 years of schooling, if at all. Hardly anything to get worried about.

Plus, the cultural contributions of indigenous groups have made, and continue to make, an impression on the scientific method - even the Rainbow serpent. Those cultural observations are borne out of a rudimentary form of scientific process - observation, theory, testing. The theory might be crude, but the history of observation can be very valuable in aiding Western science (which might have better theories, but less observation).

For example, in relation to climate change, Western science has only 100 years of observing something that can take thousands of years. Indigenous knowledge may be able to provide additional ways of looking at the problem (or may not). Similarly, western science is brilliant at extracting medicine from plants (and making it purer, stronger and cheaper produce), but has very little knowledge of which plants to examine. Indigenous cultures, with thousands of years of observation of the Australian (or other) landscape, may be able to identify which plants Western scientists should look at.

The same applies equally to middle-eastern religions, of course. Its just that because Western science grew up in a climate where those traditions were strongest, much of the observation ingrained in those religious traditions has already been extracted and expanded upon. And now those same religious traditions are asking that we remove that expansion, and go back to beliefs more suitable for 2010 BC than the present. As far as I'm aware, no-one is at this point suggesting that Indigenous creation myths should replace science, unlike those in america suggesting that Biblical accounts should do so.
 

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#2
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

Plus, the cultural contributions of indigenous groups have made, and continue to make, an impression on the scientific method - even the Rainbow serpent. Those cultural observations are borne out of a rudimentary form of scientific process - observation, theory, testing. The theory might be crude, but the history of observation can be very valuable in aiding Western science (which might have better theories, but less observation).
Bullshit.
 

rick James

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#3
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

Agreed. By the time Europeans arrived in Australia the aboriginal achievement list was:

Boomerang - curved stick
Didgeridoo - hollow stick
speak - stick with a rock on the end of it

Yeah really scientific, those noble savages.
 
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#4
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

Agreed. By the time Europeans arrived in Australia the aboriginal achievement list was:

Boomerang - curved stick
Didgeridoo - hollow stick
speak - stick with a rock on the end of it

Yeah really scientific, those noble savages.
Of course their adaptation of the flora into effective medicine means nothing.
Why are we still studying that btw?

How about that little genius of mixing kangaroo dung and certain types of tree sap to make a highly effective and resilient resin for fixing spear heads to spear shafts?

Poor, dumb bastards they were.:rolleyes:

Would you like some more?
 

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#5
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

Of course their adaptation of the flora into effective medicine means nothing.
Why are we still studying that btw?
What medicine was it? Like, what does it do?

Got a link to show we're still studying this?

How about that little genius of mixing kangaroo dung and certain types of tree sap to make a highly effective and resilient resin for fixing spear heads to spear shafts?
We were sailing the ocean from the UK to Australia at that point, again, they were completely unevolved - a doomed to extinction civilisation if ever one existed.

Poor, dumb bastards they were.:rolleyes:

Would you like some more?
I'd love at least one example, yes. But one isn't forthcoming, because the reality is we considered them animals, scientifically speaking, up until the late 60's - fauna.
 

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#6
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

Agreed. By the time Europeans arrived in Australia the aboriginal achievement list was:

Boomerang - curved stick
Didgeridoo - hollow stick
speak - stick with a rock on the end of it

Yeah really scientific, those noble savages.

Why not research the Southern Indigenious groups around that time, you will learn that you are totaaly wrong
 

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#7
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

Why not research the Southern Indigenious groups around that time, you will learn that you are totaaly wrong
The ones we basically wiped out with our superior technology and immune systems? Oh right, those guys.

I would much rather my child got taught about the morals from the bible, than had to learn about aboriginal culture as if it was anything more than a brutal, savage, primitive one. Maybe some lessons on how to avoid them at all costs would be a good idea too.
 
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#8
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

We were sailing the ocean from the UK to Australia at that point, again, they were completely unevolved - a doomed to extinction civilisation if ever one existed.
I have no argument that they were doomed. It was only a matter of time.
But unevolved? Seriously rj, stop trolling crap.



I'd love at least one example, yes. But one isn't forthcoming, because the reality is we considered them animals, scientifically speaking, up until the late 60's - fauna.
http://greatreporter.com/mambo/content/view/90/13/

This site is copyrighted, and I cbf typing up the relevant stuff...but have a read.

http://www.maningrida.com/mac/bwc/documents/traditional_aboriginal_medicine_practice.pdf


Read and learn rj.:thumbsu:

http://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/10/10/1252/pdf

Lots of in depth research here as well it seems.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=2f8b14518a2d99c5484310cf6d4ffc0c

Abstract

Fifty-six ethanolic extracts of various parts of 39 plants used in traditional Australian Aboriginal medicine were investigated for their antibacterial activities against four Gram-positive (Bacillus cereus, Enterococcus faecalis, Staphylococcus aureus and Streptococcus pyogenes) and four Gram-negative (Escherichia coli, Klebsiella pneumoniae, Pseudomonas aeruginosa and Salmonella typhimurium) bacterial species. In a plate-hole diffusion assay, 12 extracts inhibited the growth of one or more of the bacteria, with five extracts showing broad spectrum antibacterial activity against Gram-positive bacteria. B. cereus was the most susceptible bacterium, with all 12 extracts displaying activity against this organism. Extracts from the leaves of Eremophila species (Myoporaceae) were the most active, with Eremophila duttonii exhibiting the greatest activity (against Gram-positive bacteria). The antibacterial effects of E. duttoniiB. cereus, E. faecalis and S. aureusS. pyogenes. were further investigated by time–course growth assays which showed that significant growth inhibition was observed in cultures incubated in the presence of the extract within 1 h for and 2 h for




Hmmmm Interesting stuff huh.




Is that enough?
Plants being researched for their anti-aids qualities.

The use of traditional medicine in concert with Western medical practices.

Yep, all those scientists and doctors are wrong and rj is right.

They were just unevolved neanderthals.:rolleyes:
 

rick James

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#9
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

So where does that say that the aboriginals knew that the leaves they were rubbing on themselves, could fight against e.coli and AIDS?

They could have been any leaves mate. Nothing there suggests the aboriginals actually knew what they were doing with those leaves. Let alone what diseases their compounds could fight.
 
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#10
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

So where does that say that the aboriginals knew that the leaves they were rubbing on themselves, could fight against e.coli and AIDS?

They could have been any leaves mate. Nothing there suggests the aboriginals actually knew what they were doing with those leaves. Let alone what diseases their compounds could fight.
Good grief.

If you actually read the literature you would see that specific plant species were used for specific ailments.
They may not have the complex understanding of HOW or WHY they worked, as we do today.
But they did know which plant to use for each different ailment.
 

cancat

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#11
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

Of course their adaptation of the flora into effective medicine means nothing.
Why are we still studying that btw?

How about that little genius of mixing kangaroo dung and certain types of tree sap to make a highly effective and resilient resin for fixing spear heads to spear shafts?
These are examples of things that all human societies would have been doing before science began. Australian indigenous societies would have developed herbal medicine specific to their environment - just like the tribes in the Amazon or the Congo did. Combine herbal medicines with dancing and clapsticks and it's more akin to voodoo than science.
 

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#12
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

These are examples of things that all human societies would have been doing before science began. Australian indigenous societies would have developed herbal medicine specific to their environment - just like the tribes in the Amazon or the Congo did. Combine herbal medicines with dancing and clapsticks and it's more akin to voodoo than science.

This could get all philosophical if we're not careful.:p
Look, practical Science, when all of the mumbo is stripped away, is looking at a problem and trying to solve it.
Over a period of centuries/thousands of years indigenous societies, no doubt through a drawn out process of trial and error and a certain degree of good fortune, built up a resource "library" of traditional cures and methods that, whilst not complete to any extent, generally kept most of them healthy from the disease/dangers within their environment.

It may be primitive and simplistic, but that is science to me in its purest form.

*expects evo, suspense et all to come in and kick me half to death for posting this*
 

btdg

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Thread starter #15
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

These are examples of things that all human societies would have been doing before science began. Australian indigenous societies would have developed herbal medicine specific to their environment - just like the tribes in the Amazon or the Congo did. Combine herbal medicines with dancing and clapsticks and it's more akin to voodoo than science.
Its still relevant to Western science, though, just as Voodoo might be.

Western science, with its more finely-tuned methods can come in and expand greatly on indigenous knowledge. But indigenous knowledge still contributes (in varying degrees of importance), hence why its included in a curriculum studying the history of science.

In all seriousness, from a teaching perspective that whole subject probably gets taught in a single-week project somewhere around year 8. Kids will go out, research some medical product that was developed based on indigenous usage, hand it in and never think about it again.
 

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#16
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

Its still relevant to Western science, though, just as Voodoo might be.

Western science, with its more finely-tuned methods can come in and expand greatly on indigenous knowledge. But indigenous knowledge still contributes (in varying degrees of importance), hence why its included in a curriculum studying the history of science.

In all seriousness, from a teaching perspective that whole subject probably gets taught in a single-week project somewhere around year 8. Kids will go out, research some medical product that was developed based on indigenous usage, hand it in and never think about it again.
I was taught the rainbow serpent in a manner I would equate to RE. That was back in about grade 3 or 4. We had to learn more and more shit about aboriginals right up until about year 10..

Our school didn't offer Australian History, or European History - hell I would have preferred Asian history. But we had to learn aboriginal history and the invasion and such. It was pretty damn biased in the late 90's.
 

btdg

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Thread starter #17
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

I was taught the rainbow serpent in a manner I would equate to RE. That was back in about grade 3 or 4. We had to learn more and more shit about aboriginals right up until about year 10..

Our school didn't offer Australian History, or European History - hell I would have preferred Asian history. But we had to learn aboriginal history and the invasion and such. It was pretty damn biased in the late 90's.
So 'shit about aboriginals' isn't Australian history?

If you were taught about the Rainbow serpent in a manner akin to RE, I'd be very surprised (and shocked). As far as I'm aware, even traditional indigenous people understood that story as a myth or an allegory. Whoever presented it as absolute truth (in the same way that Christian RE is always presented) must have had a pretty poor grasp of the subject...
 

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#18
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

So 'shit about aboriginals' isn't Australian history?

If you were taught about the Rainbow serpent in a manner akin to RE, I'd be very surprised (and shocked). As far as I'm aware, even traditional indigenous people understood that story as a myth or an allegory. Whoever presented it as absolute truth (in the same way that Christian RE is always presented) must have had a pretty poor grasp of the subject...
Christian RE isn't always presented as truth in my experience. I stopped doing it about grade 4 because my folks felt it was pointless (might be why I'm bordering on being amoral) but it was much more about discussing social issues and shit like that - it was more akin to counselling than anything.

As for the aboriginal shit, never underestimate the absolute lunatic idiocy of hippie women from the outer eastern suburbs of Melbourne. Half those pasty white lesbians ****ing thought they WERE aboriginal.
 

btdg

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Thread starter #19
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

Christian RE isn't always presented as truth in my experience. I stopped doing it about grade 4 because my folks felt it was pointless (might be why I'm bordering on being amoral) but it was much more about discussing social issues and shit like that - it was more akin to counselling than anything.

As for the aboriginal shit, never underestimate the absolute lunatic idiocy of hippie women from the outer eastern suburbs of Melbourne. Half those pasty white lesbians ****ing thought they WERE aboriginal.
That was my experience of RE too. They talked about mainly moral issues, but from a very Christian perspective, reinforcing the view that morality and religion were somehow linked. They also wove in a lot of cool bible stories, but presented them as the truth (often more Jonah and the Whale or Samson and Delilah than Jesus, because if you've got an audience of 8 year-olds you have to play to them).

And so what if you had some crappy teachers. That doesn't make aboriginal history any less a part of Australian history. As far as I'm concerned (and I'm a history teacher), the invasion/settlement process is perhaps the most important part of our history - certainly more than ANZAC day, and possibly even above WWII. I feel it often gets done in a half-assed way, though - spending 2 weeks every year for 10 years in which you never really cover anything of substance, rather than one completing one 10-week unit in year 10 (in comparison, to say, WWII, which is done the other way around). That sounds like what you experienced, maybe even to the point that you consider it 'aboriginal shit' rather than 'australian history'. Disappointing
 

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#20
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

The ones we basically wiped out with our superior technology and immune systems? Oh right, those guys.

I would much rather my child got taught about the morals from the bible, than had to learn about aboriginal culture as if it was anything more than a brutal, savage, primitive one. Maybe some lessons on how to avoid them at all costs would be a good idea too.
You are complete flog. Have you never heard of Guns, Germs and Steal?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel


Jared Diamond said an alternative title would be A short history about everyone for the last 13,000 years.[1] The book attempts to explain why Eurasian civilizations, as a whole, have survived and conquered others, while attempting to refute the belief that Eurasian hegemony is due to any form of Eurasian intellectual, moral, or inherent genetic superiority. Diamond argues that the gaps in power and technology between human societies originate in environmental differences, which are amplified by various positive feedback loops. When cultural or genetic differences have favored Eurasians (for example Chinese centralized government, or improved disease resistance among Eurasians), these advantages were only created due to the influence of geography and were not inherent in the Eurasian genomes.
Is that you Mr Windschuttle?

Also, some posters use of the term science as though it is a clearly define term is worrying.
 

rick James

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#21
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

That was my experience of RE too. They talked about mainly moral issues, but from a very Christian perspective, reinforcing the view that morality and religion were somehow linked. They also wove in a lot of cool bible stories, but presented them as the truth (often more Jonah and the Whale or Samson and Delilah than Jesus, because if you've got an audience of 8 year-olds you have to play to them).

And so what if you had some crappy teachers. That doesn't make aboriginal history any less a part of Australian history. As far as I'm concerned (and I'm a history teacher), the invasion/settlement process is perhaps the most important part of our history - certainly more than ANZAC day, and possibly even above WWII. I feel it often gets done in a half-assed way, though - spending 2 weeks every year for 10 years in which you never really cover anything of substance, rather than one completing one 10-week unit in year 10 (in comparison, to say, WWII, which is done the other way around). That sounds like what you experienced, maybe even to the point that you consider it 'aboriginal shit' rather than 'australian history'. Disappointing
Fair point. I certainly don't see anything wrong with actually evaluating aboriginal history and learning about it in the same way we look at WW2.

It was just in my experience, and I've been told this has changed over the last decade anyway, it wasn't presented in a scholarly way, much like RE.
 

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#22
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

Christian RE isn't always presented as truth in my experience. I stopped doing it about grade 4 because my folks felt it was pointless (might be why I'm bordering on being amoral) but it was much more about discussing social issues and shit like that - it was more akin to counselling than anything.
.
What rot ! RE is taught as fact ..as in there is a God living in the sky who created the world and everything in it ..totally opposite to Aboriginal myths .

I see you haven't improved and are still getting in out of your depth.
 

rick James

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#23
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

What rot ! RE is taught as fact ..as in there is a God living in the sky who created the world and everything in it ..totally opposite to Aboriginal myths .

I see you haven't improved and are still getting in out of your depth.
It wasn't taught that way, therefore, you're 100% wrong Blues_Man.

Again. And please, the day I go for a dip in the kiddy pool with you is the day you can start talking about depth. I drop things smarter than you in the toilet following my morning coffee.
 

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#24
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

It wasn't taught that way, therefore, you're 100% wrong Blues_Man.

Again. And please, the day I go for a dip in the kiddy pool with you is the day you can start talking about depth. I drop things smarter than you in the toilet following my morning coffee.
If it's not taught as fact then it makes RE pointless, they already learn about all the other bits in social studies. RE can be done away with.

If it is taught as fact then it shouldn't be allowed in a government school and should be done away with.
 

rick James

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#25
Re: Religious lessons in State Schools. I don't get it.

If it's not taught as fact then it makes RE pointless, they already learn about all the other bits in social studies. RE can be done away with.

If it is taught as fact then it shouldn't be allowed in a government school and should be done away with.
I agree completely - I'm just saying even in some Catholic schools the focus of the RE lesson is quite often nothing to do with presenting Christianity as fact, rather more focused on social issues and concerns students have.

It doesn't really have a place, but then, neither does respect for other cultures or embracing multiculturalism.

Schools should teach not preach.
 
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