Opinion The National Draft... is not really a National Draft?

Would you support the removal of all concessions from the draft?

  • Yes

    Votes: 18 34.6%

  • No - keep all concessions as they are

    Votes: 1 1.9%

  • No - keep some concessions as they are and amend/remove others

    Votes: 33 63.5%
  • Total voters
    52

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Red Black and Blue said:
What discrimination and prejudice? I'm talking about which state they come from.

Sure Gold Coast and GWS don't have father sons. But in thirty years Essendon have had 3 father sons of any quality. GWS have had 7 first round academy players in seven years. Gold Coast probably have 3 now with Jeffery and Davis likely to have gone first round. The talent distribution from some academies isn't equal and reasonable to what father sons grant most teams. Now the NGA academies are a disproportionate response to that unbalance, but it goes to show how unbalanced it was that the AFL attempted to remedy it.

The success of Brisbane in the early naughties and Sydney playing in six grand finals in 12 years shows that talent retention issues don't hurt their ability to achieve any success and it was overblown as an issue.
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Prejudice and descrimination? LoL. Victorians have always viewed south Australian people as an interior race or a sub human species LoL.


And while we are at it, how many father sons has Freo dockers had in their history? 1 i think and that was Brett Peake, son of Brian Peake.


Yeah don't get me wrong, Brisbane had a solid run from 1995-2004. They kept a few Vic players because they played finals almost every year in that period.

Yes the swans played 6 grand finals from 2005-16 and getting 2 flags in 2005 and 2012. Could of easily added one, if not 2 more flags as well with possibly 2006 and 2016.

Point is in that 1996-2018 period, the swans only missed finals in 2000, 2002 and 2009. So they only missed finals in 3 times out of 23 years.

I assumed retained some of those Victorian players helped.
 
Freomaniac said:
Prejudice and descrimination? LoL. Victorians have always viewed south Australian people as an interior race or a sub human species LoL.


And while we are at it, how many father sons has Freo dockers had in their history? 1 i think and that was Brett Peake, son of Brian Peake.


Yeah don't get me wrong, Brisbane had a solid run from 1995-2004. They kept a few Vic players because they played finals almost every year in that period.

Yes the swans played 6 grand finals from 2005-16 and getting 2 flags in 2005 and 2012. Could of easily added one, if not 2 more flags as well with possibly 2006 and 2016.

Point is in that 1996-2018 period, the swans only missed finals in 2000, 2002 and 2009. So they only missed finals in 3 times out of 23 years.

I assumed retained some of those Victorian players helped.
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Well I'm a little prejudice to those from the Northern beaches of Sydney atm. Build a wall I say.

I think the academies being based on retention issues is a false premise. That non-Victorian clubs bleed talent regardless of other factors is not true. Hasn't happened historically with Sydney even before their 2005 flag, West Coast or Port. Happened a little with Brisbane for a 3 years period where they were devoid of senior leaders and Gold Coast where they attracted the wrong leaders.

Those clubs have different struggles to Victorian teams no doubt but everyone has their issues. We aren't going to attract anyone who wants to get out of the football bubble and we've had the worst retention of the decade. It's all swings and roundabouts based on how attractive your club is to different personalities and their intricacies.
 
Red Black and Blue said:
Well I'm a little prejudice to those from the Northern beaches of Sydney atm. Build a wall I say.

I think the academies being based on retention issues is a false premise. That non-Victorian clubs bleed talent regardless of other factors is not true. Hasn't happened historically with Sydney even before their 2005 flag, West Coast or Port. Happened a little with Brisbane for a 3 years period where they were devoid of senior leaders and Gold Coast where they attracted the wrong leaders.

Those clubs have different struggles to Victorian teams no doubt but everyone has their issues. We aren't going to attract anyone who wants to get out of the football bubble and we've had the worst retention of the decade. It's all swings and roundabouts based on how attractive your club is to different personalities and their intricacies.
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I was never in the vicbias Kool aid bracket.

Actually I am a neutral fan.

Certain Victorian teams have certain disadvantages.

But your an Essendon fan so we will use your team as an example.

Your team plays some home ground games at Docklands. North, dogs and saints play home games there frequently there too. So Essendon vs north Melbourne is essentially a neutral game.

So your team has the home ground advantage vs the non Vic sides such as my team Freo. Yes Essendon plays home games at the MCG too but you get my point.

Also another disadvantage your team has is fighting for local talent. Yes you are fighting to get access to quality Victorian talent vs 9 other Vic sides.

So yes you do have the VFL. Thats 16 sides. 10 of those sides are ressies sides. Your team plays your depth players and youth in that ressies team. The other 6 sides are stand alone teams that have their young talent recruited by AFL teams.


You also got the tac cup which is either the country league or an under 19 comp. Your team are fighting for local talent there too.

Again...... I am not on the Vic bias Kool aid like most of the non Vic people are. I see all sides of the story.
 

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Freomaniac said:
you are a Sydney supporter and you can agree to this.

The academy systems originally started around 2005 ish. Only Brisbane and Sydney had the academy.

It was originally there to help Brisbane and Sydney which is fair enough.

Brisbane's QAFL isn't a strong breeding ground for young AFL talent like SANFL, WAFL, VFL or the Tac cup


Sydney AFL wasn't too good either.

Sure that Brisbane lions 2001-3 premiership sides had a handful of local Queensland talent.

Look at the swans 2005 premiership side. How many NSW born players played in that 2005 team?

So yeah..... Some people complaining about the academy systems don't realise that the NSW and Queensland have to rely on getting good talent in SA, WA and Victoria if the academy systems didn't exist
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I could be wrong but I think the Academy system began in 2010. Before that it was the NSW Scholarship scheme, though the only players of note who became AFL players as a result of that scheme were Taylor Walker and Craig Bird.
 
RUNVS said:
I could be wrong but I think the Academy system began in 2010. Before that it was the NSW Scholarship scheme, though the only players of note who became AFL players as a result of that scheme were Taylor Walker and Craig Bird.
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Ok I stand corrected the academy system for the swans started in 2010.

So we had the NSW scholarship system.

So Taylor Walker and Craig Bird were the 2 guys that made it.

Craig Bird wasn't too bad.

Was Paul Bevan on that scholarship too? He too was on the Swans list
 
Freomaniac said:
Ok I stand corrected the academy system for the swans started in 2010.

So we had the NSW scholarship system.

So Taylor Walker and Craig Bird were the 2 guys that made it.

Craig Bird wasn't too bad.

Was Paul Bevan on that scholarship too? He too was on the Swans list
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I think Paul Bevan was before the Scholarship Scheme but I could be wrong.

Upon further research apparently Will Langford was taken by the Hawks under the scheme as well, and Witts taken by Collingwood, so there were a smattering of players.

Basically clubs could sign teenagers from NSW, and that club would be exclusively in charge of that players development and if the player was good enough then said player went onto that AFL teams list when he was old enough.

Overall though the scheme was not a success as it did not produce many AFL quality players, and was scrapped in favour of the Academy system.
 
Freomaniac said:
Ok I stand corrected the academy system for the swans started in 2010.

So we had the NSW scholarship system.

So Taylor Walker and Craig Bird were the 2 guys that made it.

Craig Bird wasn't too bad.

Was Paul Bevan on that scholarship too? He too was on the Swans list
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Bird wasn't from the scholarship program. He got drafted.

Witts, Taylor Walker, Michael Hartley & Langford were the only real success stories. It was Largely a failure.

The academies are actually working though. Why is that an issue? It's doing exactly as it was intended.

If there's a problem it's not in how the academies are working.
 
BloodySwan said:
Bird wasn't from the scholarship program. He got drafted.

Witts, Taylor Walker, Michael Hartley & Langford were the only real success stories. It was Largely a failure.

The academies are actually working though. Why is that an issue? It's doing exactly as it was intended.

If there's a problem it's not in how the academies are working.
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Because it is delivering regular top ten picks to one club, regardless, of where they finish on the ladder i.e. diluting the draft, which along with the salary cap, are the two equalisation measures the AFL has utilised to provide for an even competition. By rights, Braeden Campbell should be a Hawthorn player after that last draft.

If the AFL want to start giving clubs zones/academies then they could start by giving Hawthorn the Eastern Ranges, who are affiliated by Box Hill Hawks, and Bailey Smith would look very nice as an onballer next season. After all it wouldn't be a problem, the academies would be working.

If the AFL is going to give the swans a massive drafting advantage via their academy then perhaps they should operate with a salary cap disadvantage, say 90% of the cap of all the other clubs; but as we know that doesn't happen either and it is quite the reverse.
 
bluespooner said:
Because it is delivering regular top ten picks to one club, regardless, of where they finish on the ladder i.e. diluting the draft, which along with the salary cap, are the two equalisation measures the AFL has utilised to provide for an even competition. By rights, Braeden Campbell should be a Hawthorn player after that last draft.

If the AFL want to start giving clubs zones/academies then they could start by giving Hawthorn the Eastern Ranges, who are affiliated by Box Hill Hawks, and Bailey Smith would look very nice as an onballer next season. After all it wouldn't be a problem, the academies would be working.

If the AFL is going to give the swans a massive drafting advantage via their academy then perhaps they should operate with a salary cap disadvantage, say 90% of the cap of all the other clubs; but as we know that doesn't happen either and it is quite the reverse.
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The academies are start equalisation metrics because the draft in the previous format wyant equal.

Despite its "massive advantage" the club's with academies aren't dominating the league.
 
BloodySwan said:
The academies are start equalisation metrics because the draft in the previous format wyant equal.

Despite its "massive advantage" the club's with academies aren't dominating the league.
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The swans were able to draft Isaac Heeney with their pick 18 in the 2014 draft even though Melbourne bid on him at pick 2 i.e. the swans were runner-up in the GF but still getting access to pick 2. Callum Mills name was called out at pick 3 in 2015 and the swans obtained him with picks 18, 37, 38 and 57 (the swans had finished top 4). In this year's draft Braeden Campbell was obtained by matching with a second round pick and a number of picks in the 40s; providing the swans with two top five picks in this year's draft.

So enabling the swans to be regular finalists and grand finalists over the last ten years is not a massive leg-up. Note; I haven't even discussed the rort of getting John Blakey's son and the additional salary cap handouts enabling the swans advantages over the other clubs.
 
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bluespooner said:
The swans were able to draft Isaac Heeney with their pick 18 in the 2014 draft even though Melbourne bid on him at pick 2 i.e. the swans were runner-up in the GF but still getting access to pick 2. Callum Mills name was called out at pick 3 and the swans obtained him with picks 18, 37, 38 and 57 (the swans had finished top 4). In this year's draft Braeden Campbell was obtained by matching with a second round pick and a number of picks in the 40s; providing the swans with two top five picks in this year's draft.

So enabling the swans to be regular finalists and grand finalists over the last ten years is not a massive leg-up. Note; I haven't even discussed the rort of getting John Blakey's son and the additional salary cap handouts enabling the swans advantages over the other clubs.
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Is it fair that clubs will draft players like Lynch, Papley & Jones. Invest years into them only for them to want to go home. Get traded for draft picks, so the club can draft a player only for them to want to go home again later?

Without the academies the QLD & NSW clubs are just training grounds for VIC, SA & WA clubs. Is that fair?
 

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BloodySwan said:
Is it fair that clubs will draft players like Lynch, Papley & Jones. Invest years into them only for them to want to go home. Get traded for draft picks, so the club can draft a player only for them to want to go home again later?

Without the academies the QLD & NSW clubs are just training grounds for VIC, SA & WA clubs. Is that fair?
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Lynch was not drafted, he was a free agent and the GCS were not unhappy to see him go because it gave them access to pick 2 by way of compensation, in the strongest draft of recent years.

Papley still plays for the swans and all clubs are subject to players requesting trades i.e. Hawthorn let Brad Hill go for pick 23 for family reasons, even though he had been an integral part of their previous 3 premierships and was still in his early 20s. Come 2019 the family reasons were no longer such a big consideration and money was more of a driver, Fremantle subsequently received all the benefit from trading a player of high cache in his transfer to St Kilda at market rate; i.e. picks 10 and 58, future second and fourth round selections and Blake Acres. Another factor here, and a significant reason why Tom Papley requested a trade, was due to his father's illness but the swans did not find a way to be as benevolent as Hawthorn had been with Hill.

Jones was a salary dump, along with Hanneberry earlier, their best years having already been played at the swans and both had become marginal first round selections. It is difficult to fit players of this type in even with the expanded salary cap the swans enjoy, when you have one player taking up $1.5M a year - a player the swans took as a free agent.

If anything, Hawthorn could claim that the swans raided their depth and premier player i.e Kennedy and McGlynn for picks 39 and 46; and took Franklin the premier forward of the last 20 years - Hawthorn was subsequently compensated with pick 19. Hawthorn deserves an academy due to all the investment into these players and losing them for significant unders in trades.

To correct these injustices and due to the connection of the Eastern Ranges to Box Hill Hawks, this should become Hawthorn's exclusive zone and Bailey Smith should be playing for Hawthorn in 2021.
 
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BloodySwan said:
Is it fair that clubs will draft players like Lynch, Papley & Jones. Invest years into them only for them to want to go home. Get traded for draft picks, so the club can draft a player only for them to want to go home again later?

Without the academies the QLD & NSW clubs are just training grounds for VIC, SA & WA clubs. Is that fair?
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,

Cool, just so long as we all know what it is - a rort. Designed to undermine the equalisation of the draft and to give designated clubs advantages at the expense of others (largely the financial clubs that are required to also pay for the competition's expansion).
 
bluespooner said:
Lynch was not drafted, he was a free agent and the GCS were not unhappy to see him go because it gave them access to pick 2 by way of compensation, in the strongest draft of recent years.

Papley still plays for the swans and all clubs are subject to players requesting trades i.e. Hawthorn let Brad Hill go for pick 23 for family reasons, even though he had been an integral part of their previous 3 premierships and was still in his early 20s. Come 2019 the family reasons were no longer such a big consideration and money was more of a driver, Fremantle subsequently received all the benefit from trading a player of high cache in his transfer to St Kilda at market rate; i.e. picks 10 and 58, future second and fourth round selections and Blake Acres. Another factor here, and a significant reason why Tom Papley requested a trade, was due to his father's illness but the swans did not find a way to be as benevolent as Hawthorn had been with Hill.

Jones was a salary dump, along with Hanneberry earlier, their best years having already been played at the swans and both had become marginal first round selections. It is difficult to fit players of this type in even with the expanded salary cap the swans enjoy, when you have one player taking up $1.5M a year - a player the swans took as a free agent.

If anything, Hawthorn could claim that the swans raided their depth and premier player i.e Kennedy and McGlynn for picks 39 and 46; and took Franklin the premier forward of the last 20 years - Hawthorn was subsequently compensated with pick 19. Hawthorn deserves an academy due to all the investment into these players and losing them for significant unders in trades.

To correct these injustices and due to the connection of the Eastern Ranges to Box Hill Hawks, this should become Hawthorn's exclusive zone and Bailey Smith should be playing for Hawthorn in 2021.
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So you think it was working fine prior to the academies? You saw no issues in how often players were drafted to NSW & QLD only to head home to Vic a few years after
 
BloodySwan said:
So you think it was working fine prior to the academies? You saw no issues in how often players were drafted to NSW & QLD only to head home to Vic a few years after
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How many times has that happened? Anthony Rocca I can remember but that is a long time ago. I've already pointed out that the Jones example holds no weight given he was in and out of the swans side in his last season as much as he was in; and the swans had decided to prioritise younger players through the middle where he played.
Compare this to say Hawthorn who lost Luke McPharlin (gun CHB and pick 10), Ben Allan (BnF and Hawthorn premiership player), Darren Jarman (all time gun and still my favourite Hawthorn player), Jonathon Robran, Buddy Franklin, Brad Hill, etc.
Every club loses players, the swans probably fewer than most and have been a raider of other clubs as much as they have lost players. The academy is nothing more than a rort that defeats the purpose of the equalisation of the draft.
 
bluespooner said:
How many times has that happened? Anthony Rocca I can remember but that is a long time ago. I've already pointed out that the Jones example holds no weight given he was in and out of the swans side in his last season as much as he was in; and the swans had decided to prioritise younger players through the middle where he played.
Compare this to say Hawthorn who lost Luke McPharlin (gun CHB and pick 10), Ben Allan (BnF and Hawthorn premiership player), Darren Jarman (all time gun and still my favourite Hawthorn player), Jonathon Robran, Buddy Franklin, Brad Hill, etc.
Every club loses players, the swans probably fewer than most and have been a raider of other clubs as much as they have lost players. The academy is nothing more than a rort that defeats the purpose of the equalisation of the draft.
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If we can go back into the 90s, Shannon Grant, Paul Licuria, Anthony Rocca, Zak Jones (you should read the articles about how he wanted to go home before you claim to know what you're talking about). Darren Jolly, Lewis Jetta. Papley & O'Keefe do count despite not leaving because we end up having to pay them extra to stay (which was the point of the COLA. You have to overpay players to keep them in Sydney)

I never realised Buddy was from Sydney too! Heading home after living in Melbourne. How's about Robran leaving his home town of Melbourne to go home to Melbourne.

This is ignoring how many players GWS have lost to players going home. How the number 1 draft pick can be hounded after his first season. They've lost so many to players claiming to go home. Boyd, Treloar, Smith, Sheil. But you're right, it hardly ever happens
 
BloodySwan said:
If we can go back into the 90s, Shannon Grant, Paul Licuria, Anthony Rocca, Zak Jones (you should read the articles about how he wanted to go home before you claim to know what you're talking about). Darren Jolly, Lewis Jetta. Papley & O'Keefe do count despite not leaving because we end up having to pay them extra to stay (which was the point of the COLA. You have to overpay players to keep them in Sydney)

I never realised Buddy was from Sydney too! Heading home after living in Melbourne. How's about Robran leaving his home town of Melbourne to go home to Melbourne.

This is ignoring how many players GWS have lost to players going home. How the number 1 draft pick can be hounded after his first season. They've lost so many to players claiming to go home. Boyd, Treloar, Smith, Sheil. But you're right, it hardly ever happens
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But you’re making it out to be like it’s a one way street whereby players just want to leave.

Use the swans for example, JPK, McGlynn, Ball, Mitch Morton, Spida, Buddy, Tipp, Sinclair etc all wanted to go to the ‘Sydney’ for various reasons. It’s not like the swans play out of and live in a city in middle of Australia.

Now use the suns for example, two years ago they were at near Fitzroy level. Now with some amazing drafting, good coaching and off field stability, players are extending contracts but also getting free agents to come. Same with Brisbane a few years before that, ditto the giants a few years before that.
 
BloodySwan said:
If we can go back into the 90s, Shannon Grant, Paul Licuria, Anthony Rocca, Zak Jones (you should read the articles about how he wanted to go home before you claim to know what you're talking about). Darren Jolly, Lewis Jetta. Papley & O'Keefe do count despite not leaving because we end up having to pay them extra to stay (which was the point of the COLA. You have to overpay players to keep them in Sydney)
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Shannon Grant was a straight swap for Wayne Schwass; Grant was younger and Schwass the better credentialed and the swans were an eager trading partner. Paul Licuria was a trade that saw the swans get pick 3 for a player they originally picked up in the second round two years previously, so once again well compensated. Jolly was originallly drafted by Melbourne and was traded to the swans for pick 15, after five years in Sydney he was traded to Collingwood for picks 14 and 46 - so well and truly compensated for an aging ruckman. Lewis Jetta a straight swap for Callum Sinclair; given Sinclair is still playing, the fact that he is a capable ruckman and the dearth of quality ruckman, I would rate that as a trade win for the swans.
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[/QUOTE]I never realised Buddy was from Sydney too! Heading home after living in Melbourne. How's about Robran leaving his home town of Melbourne to go home to Melbourne.[/QUOTE]

I don't know what your on about here; but other key forwards the swans have nabbed include Lockett (engineered by the AFL) after he was set to sign with Richmond and Tippett who the swans did not pay for with any trade currency - perhaps Adelaide should get an academy. I got Robran's first name wrong in my earlier post and meant Matthew Robran, who went on to be a dual grand finalist with Adelaide after being recruited by Hawthorn by way of Norwood.
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[/QUOTE]This is ignoring how many players GWS have lost to players going home. How the number 1 draft pick can be hounded after his first season. They've lost so many to players claiming to go home. Boyd, Treloar, Smith, Sheil. But you're right, it hardly ever happens[/QUOTE]

GWS has lost players, initially because they had to reduce list size to bring them back into line with a standard AFL list and secondly, because they were given a zone/academy in AFL heartland Albury and the upper Murray. This has meant they have been able to have access a steady stream of high end talent, regardless of where they have finished on the ladder, and if they are not getting an academy recruit they are getting first round AFL compensation picks (another AFL administration invention to benefit the expansion clubs).

If the AFL wants to get rid of the draft (rather then go with the compromised draft as present that gives advantages to some but not others) then so be it give every club a zone in AFL heartland territory; if the swans and GWS keep their zones as is and the other clubs are afforded the same advantages as enjoyed by the swans and GWS then I can't see the swans being successful having to play under the same rules as other clubs.
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BloodySwan said:
If we can go back into the 90s, Shannon Grant, Paul Licuria, Anthony Rocca, Zak Jones (you should read the articles about how he wanted to go home before you claim to know what you're talking about). Darren Jolly, Lewis Jetta. Papley & O'Keefe do count despite not leaving because we end up having to pay them extra to stay (which was the point of the COLA. You have to overpay players to keep them in Sydney)

I never realised Buddy was from Sydney too! Heading home after living in Melbourne. How's about Robran leaving his home town of Melbourne to go home to Melbourne.

This is ignoring how many players GWS have lost to players going home. How the number 1 draft pick can be hounded after his first season. They've lost so many to players claiming to go home. Boyd, Treloar, Smith, Sheil. But you're right, it hardly ever happens
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darren gaspar pissed off after 2 years also when we took him at pick 1

edit - also in the 1992 draft robert pyman and andrew mckay contacted the leagues struggling clubs (sydney, brisbane, richmond and fitzroy) and said if you pick us we'll just stay in SA. couldnt even get 18 year olds to play for us when we were bad.
 
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bluespooner said:
Because it is delivering regular top ten picks to one club, regardless, of where they finish on the ladder i.e. diluting the draft, which along with the salary cap, are the two equalisation measures the AFL has utilised to provide for an even competition. By rights, Braeden Campbell should be a Hawthorn player after that last draft.

If the AFL want to start giving clubs zones/academies then they could start by giving Hawthorn the Eastern Ranges, who are affiliated by Box Hill Hawks, and Bailey Smith would look very nice as an onballer next season. After all it wouldn't be a problem, the academies would be working.

If the AFL is going to give the swans a massive drafting advantage via their academy then perhaps they should operate with a salary cap disadvantage, say 90% of the cap of all the other clubs; but as we know that doesn't happen either and it is quite the reverse.
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I know the struggling Vic clubs get frustrated with the northern academy’s but Vic teams have won 11/15 flags , for all the angst it’s not exactly translating to results is it ?

Just how imbalanced does it have to be before you guys are happy


Sent from my iPad using BigFooty.com
 
I never realised Buddy was from Sydney too! Heading home after living in Melbourne. How's about Robran leaving his home town of Melbourne to go home to Melbourne.[/QUOTE]



[/QUOTE]This is ignoring how many players GWS have lost to players going home. How the number 1 draft pick can be hounded after his first season. They've lost so many to players claiming to go home. Boyd, Treloar, Smith, Sheil. But you're right, it hardly ever happens[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
If you win the lottery and throw your winnings back into the lottery that's a dumb investment. So why are draft picks a fair reward for a player you invest time in? Every kid drafted is a risk, draft picks are not worth as much as a proven player. Lets say 1/4 first rounders don't make it to 100 games, and 1/4 victorians request a trade home (which is true). So already any Victorian kid Syd draft is only 50% chance to succeed while a kid Essendon drafts is 75% chance to succeed. So you draft a Victorian kid who requests a trade home, you trade him for draft picks, then the kid you now draft is again 50% chance to succeed at your club. So it takes Syd longer to find quality players (2-4 years in the original investment plus 2-4years for the new investment) while their more likely to fail.

Trading a kid you drafted for in exchange for draft picks which are often worse than you originally selected is not a fair trade. If you were working the same way on your investments every year your return would be going down. I'm very glad you're not in charge of my money.
 
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