Opinion The NBA Thread

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spartan-magpie said:
Top 25 is no meant feat.

I used to love the mailman. Those days for mine, when we had the Jordan's, barkleys, kemps, mutumbos and more playing was just special. I can't say that I have the time to follow the current era as closely as did back in the early to late 90s

Do you think you'd have him rated higher had he won a championship or 2?
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Championships always enhance a players value in all-time debates. That power forward group is so even, they could reasonably be rated in any order.

A championship or two would move Karl Malone up a few boards I'd expect, and might move him ahead for those who may favour McHale or Nowitzki as they've both won.

I'd probably keep Malone where I have him, with that for me reflective of his play v the others.

Still pretty great though, being that all-time. He was one of the greats of the 90s.
 
TradeDraft said:
76ers all but have said they take Ben Simmons with pick 1
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That's been the case for a while now.

They're shopping Okafor and Noel, listening to offers and seeing what they can get (to clear space on the front line for Simmons).
 

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Knightmare said:
Saw the video about that today also.

Good news for Australian basketball to have Simmons set to go number one.
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Sure Is, Great for Aussie Basketball.

Do you have Link to the Video Knightmare?
 
TradeDraft said:
Sure Is, Great for Aussie Basketball.

Do you have Link to the Video Knightmare?
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I believe it was discussed on NBA.com (go to the American version).

On the front page on NBA.com click on the video: Is He Worthy? (And it should be one of those videos on Simmons).

CasuallyDressed said:
What do you think is a good return for either of them?
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Great question.

If quantified as a pick, pick 3 in this draft is their worth each as individuals in my view. And for very different reasons. Noel for his work on defence, Okafor on offense.

The Sixers may trade one or both (most likely one as Embiid's health is a questionmark until it's not) of them depending on the return and whether they can get something back they view of equal value, that helps them towards winning and helps fill their positional needs.

The Sixers would be looking for established players. They'd love Jimmy Butler as one example, though as a Bulls fan I would not agree to a trade of Butler for either. They're not in get better mode once Simmons is selected, so they're after players rather than picks.

Another curious option would be if DeMarcus Cousins becomes available, the Sixers could pretty easily offer the Kings their choice of Emiid, Okafor and Noel + the 76ers 2017 1st round choice (top 5 protected) through to 2020, or something along those lines to make things interesting.
 
Knightmare said:
Yes I did mean Jordan - edited previous post for accuracy.

I can't agree with LeBron as top 5 all time.

I've got:
1. Wilt
2. Russell
3. MJ
4. Kareem
5. Oscar

Leaving Shaq, Hakeem, LeBron, Magic, Kobe in some order
and Bird, Baylor, West etc to follow.

Duncan I'd rate 15-20 all time. I don't have him in LeBron's category.

LeBron is the best of his generation and I'll contend can go down as better than Kobe (all things said and done). I don't regard him greater than the old greats from the past though. He's firmly planted in the 6-10 group for me, and unless he remains productive until near 40 and dominant for a few more years, and wins another 2-3 championships, I'll be hesitant to move him up to 4 or 5 which is his absolute ceiling.
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Interesting take, Unusual not having MJ at one. Despite statistical brilliance, the Wilt, Russell, Robertson era is also recognised as a weaker era where certain rules hadn't yet been introduced.

Olajuwon's my favourite player of all time, but he is a top 10er for mine but can't genuinely rank him as high as I would have liked to. Kobe is a great player but fundamentally a scorer who took a lot of shots to do so. LeBron kills him IMO when you look at the game holistically.
 
bucksisbest said:
Interesting take, Unusual not having MJ at one. Despite statistical brilliance, the Wilt, Russell, Robertson era is also recognised as a weaker era where certain rules hadn't yet been introduced.

Olajuwon's my favourite player of all time, but he is a top 10er for mine but can't genuinely rank him as high as I would have liked to. Kobe is a great player but fundamentally a scorer who took a lot of shots to do so. LeBron kills him IMO when you look at the game holistically.
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The 60s/70s were different eras.

Perimeter play wasn't on the game level - guys didn't have the same range on their shots (with the three point shot not existing), nor the same handles or the same perimeter defence skills (which weren't as necessary with perimeter play not as relevant in the era).

I'm not willing to dismiss the era though and I'm willing to give it the credit media networks fail to.

Interior play was on another level in the 60s and 70s. The fundamentals, inside play, unselfish ball movement and players actually knowing how to play off the ball, post moves on offense, post play and interior defence were on another level though during that time.

And with less teams, I'd back in the quality of those teams over today's teams for the most part.

I also value bigs the impact on winning bigs have over smalls and therefore Shaq and Olajuwon ahead of LeBron/Magic/Kobe (in that order of those 5-10 players).

I agree with you about LeBron at his best is better than Kobe, with Kobe a high volume shooter with an inferior all-round game (relative to LeBron). I'm assuming LeBron continues playing beyond 35 in which case I'd take LeBron's career on performance to Kobe's.

It's such a bummer that LeBron never got to play Kobe in the finals back in those years when he was making the finals with Pau. Would have been great to see them both go at it.
 
Knightmare said:
I believe it was discussed on NBA.com (go to the American version).

On the front page on NBA.com click on the video: Is He Worthy? (And it should be one of those videos on Simmons).



Great question.

If quantified as a pick, pick 3 in this draft is their worth each as individuals in my view. And for very different reasons. Noel for his work on defence, Okafor on offense.

The Sixers may trade one or both (most likely one as Embiid's health is a questionmark until it's not) of them depending on the return and whether they can get something back they view of equal value, that helps them towards winning and helps fill their positional needs.

The Sixers would be looking for established players. They'd love Jimmy Butler as one example, though as a Bulls fan I would not agree to a trade of Butler for either. They're not in get better mode once Simmons is selected, so they're after players rather than picks.

Another curious option would be if DeMarcus Cousins becomes available, the Sixers could pretty easily offer the Kings their choice of Emiid, Okafor and Noel + the 76ers 2017 1st round choice (top 5 protected) through to 2020, or something along those lines to make things interesting.
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What would you take for Butler?

I'd lover Butler at the Sixers but figured he'd be the hardest player to pry from Chicago's hands?
 

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CasuallyDressed said:
What would you take for Butler?

I'd lover Butler at the Sixers but figured he'd be the hardest player to pry from Chicago's hands?
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I wouldn't trade Butler at all.

LeBron, Steph, KD, AD, Karl-Anthony Towns, Kawhi and Westbrook are the only players I'd consider in Butler trades. Paul George maybe.

There is no reason to trade so I wouldn't force anything. High level two-way ball players are rare and Butler along with Kawhi, Paul George and Draymond are among the very few.

Good_Old said:
Rose to the Knicks. :eek:
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Awful trade. First poor roster move the Bulls under the Gar/Pax reign have made.

The Bulls with Rose, Butler, Noah etc I'd back to be the 2 seed in the East.

Noah I'd over-pay to bring back. I believe he has more to give than is the consensus view.

Rose I really liked after the All-Star break and after Steph, Westbrook and Lillard I had Rose as the third best point guard in the NBA and my expectation is that he'll re-establish himself as just that and build on his play from this season now that he has had the full year back on the floor, with that second year back consistently better for sports people in their respective sports.

nahnah said:
The Bulls over the last three years have been so poorly managed. It all started with the Deng trade.

EAD Noah.
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I liked the Deng trade at the trade. The Sacramento first round (top 10 protected) - seemed a pretty reasonable bet given the play of Cousins. Two second round picks from Portland which is handy. Then the chance in 2015 to trade first round picks if Cavs pick is outside top 14 picks also was a great bet until the Bulls had injuries and LeBron returned to the Cavs.

The Deng trade opened the door for Butler to play a more prominent role which has proven to be a big win for the Bulls. It also opened up the salary cap space to sign Pau Gasol who was a terrific signing, with his production these past two seasons among the better few in the NBA and substantially better than Deng who has declined badly since leaving the Bulls, and struggling to fit in both with the Cavs and Heat.

The Rose trade I'll get on the Bulls for though as the only poor trade move under Gar/Pax. The logic would have been that it was clear that Noah was leaving as a free agent along with Gasol, so a center is needed. Then D.Rose as a free agent next year the Bulls clearly don't want to pay for, and knowing without Noah and Gasol they're not going to win anything, they may as well address needs now. They're also very careful salary cap managers, never taking on bad contracts and looking to build a roster out of good contracts - all things I generally agree with. But I'd be inclined to make exceptions for Rose and Noah, particularly with some very good pieces on the Bulls roster and quality youth that needs veterans to help their development.

I just can't agree with the methodology behind the Rose trade with my view on the NBA being that if you're not making moves to get better, you're getting worse. And if you're getting worse, no one will want to play for you. So I'm very against the trade and view it frankly as a fatal blow to Chicago's chances of developing a relevant team anytime in the next 5-6 years.
 
When teams are as small as basketball teams are, chemistry is a major factor. Butler went on record to say they had none. Butler and Rose was never going to work and instead of losing Butler they moved Rose on.
 
Very happy my Jazz acquired George Hill, really needed a veteran at the point and I think he ticks a lot of boxes. Is a great guy, has been a part of a winning culture at 2 different teams, can get to the rim, shoot the 3 and defend, will also be a good mentor for Dante.

The number 12 pick was never going to get anyone particularly good as this draft is by all reports quite weak outside of the 8 pick.

Also the bonus being Exum can ease back in after that ACL, I would still like us to add some veteran FA depth, if we can do that and avoid last years horrible run of injuries we are very well positioned to make it back into the playoffs.
 
Good_Old said:
When teams are as small as basketball teams are, chemistry is a major factor. Butler went on record to say they had none. Butler and Rose was never going to work and instead of losing Butler they moved Rose on.
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Rose and Butler have had little time playing together. I would beyond a shadow of doubt have stuck it out with the pair. And having to learn a completely new offense - going from Thibs half court offenses where he called all the plays, to an offense where guys are there to run more, shoot more threes and have more freedom on offense, the players broadly have struggled to make the adjustment.

They've needed more 3 point shooting around them to be a better fit.

The Bulls have that with McDermott, Mirotic and could look towards a 2 guard eg. JR Smith who as a catch and shoot type can balance that backcourt out.

I'd also have brought D.Rose back next year, and sign him for as much as would be required to bring him back, to pair him with Butler and Noah (who as mentioned before I also would have paid this offseason).

I like the pieces the Bulls have, and with the way they draft and have developed players. I'd stick by that playing group and give them more chances with injuries since Rose's first ACL what has held Chicago back.
 
shizzle said:
Very happy my Jazz acquired George Hill, really needed a veteran at the point and I think he ticks a lot of boxes. Is a great guy, has been a part of a winning culture at 2 different teams, can get to the rim, shoot the 3 and defend, will also be a good mentor for Dante.

The number 12 pick was never going to get anyone particularly good as this draft is by all reports quite weak outside of the 8 pick.

Also the bonus being Exum can ease back in after that ACL, I would still like us to add some veteran FA depth, if we can do that and avoid last years horrible run of injuries we are very well positioned to make it back into the playoffs.
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The Jazz need veterans and Hill is one. Not an ideal starter, but a piece in a larger puzzle if more established players can be added.
 
I loved Deng on the Bulls team. He was a massive let down for the Cavs but IMO was fantastic for the Bulls. I disagree that he has been poor for Miami, he's been a very handy player for them.

The only factor in this is whether Jimmy butler would have developed into a star with Deng on the roster. Given Butlers overall talent I would say it was a matter of time rather than only becoming a star because of high mins.

The Bulls also fired Thibs which IMO was a mistake and a big gain for the Wolves.

The east is even easier for the cavs now, Rose weakens the Bulls who were a very bad match up for the cavs with Gasol basically playing that Green role vs cavs that's provided Love with so much trouble. Assuming the Knicks don't sign Gasol they won't nearly be the threat the Bulls posed.

Atlanta trading Teague to Pacers weakens them a little bit even though I rate Shroeder as the better talent. Teague is a down grade on Hill for the pacers.
 
nahnah said:
I loved Deng on the Bulls team. He was a massive let down for the Cavs but IMO was fantastic for the Bulls. I disagree that he has been poor for Miami, he's been a very handy player for them.

The only factor in this is whether Jimmy butler would have developed into a star with Deng on the roster. Given Butlers overall talent I would say it was a matter of time rather than only becoming a star because of high mins.

The Bulls also fired Thibs which IMO was a mistake and a big gain for the Wolves.

The east is even easier for the cavs now, Rose weakens the Bulls who were a very bad match up for the cavs with Gasol basically playing that Green role vs cavs that's provided Love with so much trouble. Assuming the Knicks don't sign Gasol they won't nearly be the threat the Bulls posed.

Atlanta trading Teague to Pacers weakens them a little bit even though I rate Shroeder as the better talent. Teague is a down grade on Hill for the pacers.
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I could tone it down on Deng and say he has been a solid piece for Miami (albeit not involved on offense as he was for the Bulls) without being the All-Star he was for the Bulls. He was such a useful piece for the Bulls because he operated so well in Thibs' system. I'd love to see him sign with the T-Wolves and play under Thibs again. For mine he is a perfect fit there as a glue guy who will play good two way ball and be a good mentor for their younger guys.

Deng remaining would have been of no benefit that season with Rose out for the season.

Pau Gasol has proven the better player than Deng these past two seasons, so that, Butler and the picks gained in the Deng trade are the critical considerations in an evaluation of the success of that deal.

I completely agree the Bulls made a mistake firing Thibs. I'm his biggest fan it seems of Chicago fans, and I'm still raging about the firing. He is a best three coach in the NBA, with only Pop clearly better.

The East will be awful with Rose out of Chicago. Bosh is a questionmark with his health which eliminates the Heat as a threat.

The Knicks will be interesting next season with Rose, Mello and Porzingis if they can add a worthwhile center. Dwight Howard will surely be targeted. For me though Joakim Noah would be the optimal fit with his versatility on defence, ability to run the defence and on offense not needing the touches which will allow D.Rose and Mello to play their best b-ball.

Gasol on the Knicks would be hard to contain, but they'd also have trouble containing teams with Gasol consistently struggling to defend the pick and roll. In saying that though in a slow, hard court game. As with Kobe, Pau probably wouldn't have an issues playing with Mello who he could develop a good 1, 2 game with.

Schroeder I like for Atlanta. I don't think he'll be much worse than Teague. Teague I like though and feel will be a good addition for Indiana. That's a good team starting to form with PG and Monta Ellis. They just need better bigs to compliment them before they become relevant again.
 
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