Opinion The NBA Thread

[nahnah]

Just had a closer look at the draft website and it has Joseph young at 42, first time I've seen him in a mock draft.
I haven't seen or really heard of Petteway, he's 38 on draftnet

 

[nahnah]

The Cavs suck at drafting, it's an on going issue lol other than Lebron, Kyrie its been horrible since I've been following. Wagner, jackson, brown, Hickson, bennett, Karasev etc. Finally nail a late one in Danny Green and we cut him !!
I have no problems with Thompson at 4, I love the guy

Edit: waiters... I wanted beal so bad or Lamb (who turned into a dud)

 

[Knightmare]

Just had a closer look at the draft website and it has Joseph young at 42, first time I've seen him in a mock draft.
I haven't seen or really heard of Petteway, he's 38 on draftnet

Joseph Young can play. Very small guard. But for some production off the bench, it probably doesn't matter so much. Excellent from the line. Can convert from the field and 3pt range. Probably a pretty good backup point, or as best as you'll get through the draft late first round.

 

[TradeDraft]

I tip Cleveland vs Golden State NBA Finals

 

[Knightmare]

I tip Cleveland vs Golden State NBA Finals

Golden State look highly likely to come out of the West. They're an incredible and to this point historic team in a lot of what they're doing, particularly from the 3pt line. Perhaps not better than those great Celtics teams of the 60s featuring Bill Russell, and not as good as the 90s Bulls, or Wilt's Lakers. But certainly on modern play since Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls, Golden State is the best team I've seen since based on what I'm watching. On both offence and defense they're an incredible team, with their play from behind the 3pt line never done before and a formula I can't see any remaining team overcoming.

Cleveland v Atlanta will be a close series. Keep in mind with Cleveland they have no Love or Varajao. And Irving is badly hobbled. So they're not a full strength Cleveland - which otherwise would without question make it to the finals. But for this series as it's looking, it could go either way and will be very interesting to watch.

--

But as a Bulls fan I should really be supporting the Cavs from the standpoint of I really want Tom Thibodeau back as head coach, and if Atlanta win that series Thibodeau even more certainly isn't coming back, but perhaps if the Cavs swept the Hawks, then maybe Thibs still has some chance of returning.

Thibs is such an incredible coach. In his first season helps Rose from nowhere win the MVP and after a 41-41 record under Del Negro takes the team to equal back to back best regular season records in the game. He helped Deng become a two time all star. Helped Noah become a two time all star. Helped Butler develop from the final pick in the first round and not a part of the rotation to a role player, to a starter to an all star and still improving. Helped rejuvenate Pau Gasol and help him even at an advanced age put up career level numbers. And defensively he is as good as any coach in the NBA.
Perhaps he could hire and offensive coach and they can implement a better offensive system - something like Alvin Gentry who is a heck an of offensive coach and has helped that Golden State offense become as good as it has become.
But in saying that Thibs wouldn't hire an offensive coach as someone who likes that responsibility himself. I find the Bulls offense this year broke down more so due to lack of playing time of those key players together and not enough time to get them playing together. So even offensively while it's on the floor been flawed, it was never not going to be with the starters until the playoffs rarely playing together.

And as such a great defensive coach and developer of talent and someone who enables key players to play their best basketball. Working harder than anyone in the NBA. I want him back, even though 90/10 it's not happening.

 

[nahnah]

Nah what I was saying was from an overall game wins perspective (in both conferences), the Durant injury might mean you leap frog the Thunder which I wouldn't have had happening if Durant had stayed healthy.

My thoughts (and we can check this at the end of the season for the lolz)

1. Spurs
2. Thunder
3. Bulls
4. Cavs
5. Warriors
6. Clippers
7. Grizzlies
8. Wizards
9. Mavericks
10. Raptors

Warriors could really surprise in the West this year.... They still lack in the front court but have added good depth and only really need the splash brothers to improve a little bit to make a real impact in the playoffs.

I'll go with a best record of if you're also after a top 10:
1. Bulls
2. Spurs
3. Cavs
4. Clippers
5. Mavericks
6. Thunder
7. Pelicans
8. Wizards
9. Nuggets
10. Trail Blazers

I'll also go with:

Eastern Finals
Bulls v Cavs

Western Finals
Spurs v Mavericks

Finals:
Bulls v Spurs

Champions
Bulls (assuming Rose remains healthy).

I've never felt good about my Bulls going all the way, but in the 2010 Collingwood way I like them this year. The additions just feel right. And if Noah, Rose and Gasol stay healthy, Butler continues to improve as looks to be the case this preseason and the new guys come on as the season progresses. They Bulls are tip.

Wish I did this because I actually predicted warriors to do really well (second in west behind Thunder) I had Bulls and Cavs top 2 in East and no atlanta, not even top 10 in East lol I had the hornets and heat way too high. I never did a top 10 both conferences included thing so who knows where I would have placed them all.

 

[wicksy]

Wish I did this because I actually predicted warriors to do really well (second in west behind Thunder) I had Bulls and Cavs top 2 in East and no atlanta, not even top 10 in East lol I had the hornets and heat way too high. I never did a top 10 both conferences included thing so who knows where I would have placed them all.

Nice bump nahnah... Pretty happy with my prediction regarding the Warriors although as you suggest, it wasn't that much of a leap.
Just for interest sake, here is the actual order

1: Golden State
2: Atlanta
3: Clippers
4: Houston
5: Memphis
6: San Antonio
7: Cleveland
8: Portland
9: Chicago
10: Dallas
11: Toronto
12: Washington
13: New Orleans
14: Oklahoma
15: Milwaukee
16: Boston
17: Phoenix
18: Brooklyn
19: Utah
20: Indiana
21: Miami
22: Charlotte
23: Detroit
24: Denver
25: Sacramento
26: Orlando
27: Lakers
28: Philadelphia
29: New York
30: Minnesota

(Where teams had the same record, I ordered by Division W/L ratio)

Wicksy

1. Spurs (+5)
2. Thunder (+13)
3. Bulls (+6)
4. Cavs (+3)
5. Warriors (+4)
6. Clippers (+3)
7. Grizzlies (+2)
8. Wizards (+4)
9. Mavericks (+1)
10. Raptors (+1)

- Picked 7/10
- Scored 42. (Perfect score is 0)

Knightmare

1. Bulls (+8)
2. Spurs (+4)
3. Cavs (+4)
4. Clippers (+1)
5. Mavericks (+5)
6. Thunder (+8)
7. Pelicans (+6)
8. Wizards (+4)
9. Nuggets (+15)
10. Trail Blazers (+2)

- Picked 6/10
- Scored 57. (Perfect score is 0)


Not bad Knightmare.... We should do this every year. nahnah don't forget next season

 

[nahnah]

Good start to the series Cavs !! Series aren't decided in one game, keep it up please. good to get Kyrie a rest also.

Hope Carroll hasn't done an acl

 

[wicksy]

Good start to the series Cavs !! Series aren't decided in one game, keep it up please. good to get Kyrie a rest also.

Hope Carroll hasn't done an acl

Looked bad. I'd say it's a wrap if he has.

 

[wicksy]

Looked bad. I'd say it's a wrap if he has.

For the Hawks that is....

 

[TradeDraft]

Jeff Van Gundy of ESPN called Bogut a Average Player at Best

http://www.foxsports.com.au/us-spor...tm_l=Fox Feed - Bogut slammed by ESPN analyst

 

[Knightmare]

Jeff Van Gundy of ESPN called Bogut a Average Player at Best

http://www.foxsports.com.au/us-sports/jeff-van-gundy-calls-andrew-bogut-just-another-guy/story-e6frf6ju-1227362624632?sv=487994d98781aec9fa8966736a6dbc74#itm_s=foxs&itm_t=home&itm_c=content-3&itm_o=6&itm_l=Fox Feed - Bogut slammed by ESPN analyst

Jeff Van Gundy is best known for having a big mouth.

It's still nothing or at least compared to Stephen A Smith who consistently refers to Bogut as "bogus" for anyone else also watching ESPN First Take regularly.

But in saying that Van Gundy is roughly right with his comments and not so unfair.

Bogut is a starting level center. Pretty good defender. Ok on the boards and a capable but not outstanding scorer. Not overly athletic. Very injury prone. So he isn't someone you can always rely on specifically with his injury history. But he can be a component to a good team as he is for the Warriors and when healthy help a team win as he does.

Bogut big picture only gets discussed because of the team he plays for. If he still played for Milwaukee, he wouldn't be spoken about at all because he isn't a best 10 player by position in the NBA.

 

[wicksy]

Jeff Van Gundy of ESPN called Bogut a Average Player at Best

http://www.foxsports.com.au/us-sports/jeff-van-gundy-calls-andrew-bogut-just-another-guy/story-e6frf6ju-1227362624632?sv=487994d98781aec9fa8966736a6dbc74#itm_s=foxs&itm_t=home&itm_c=content-3&itm_o=6&itm_l=Fox Feed - Bogut slammed by ESPN analyst

Where does he say that Dave?


“You’re talking about the number one pick, you can get Tim Duncan or you can get Andrew Bogut,” said Van Gundy, adding he did not want to disrespect Bogut.

“You can get a Hall of Famer or you can get another guy.”

“Both were number one picks in their respective drafts.

“It just shows you how hard it is to nail that No. 1 pick. There’s no guarantees. The Warriors have proven they can win with him or without him.”

“[Bogut] has absolutely no pressure on him. Whatever he gives them is a bonus. I don’t think they go in expecting him to put up big numbers.

“Whereas Dwight Howard has a much bigger burden. He has to be great every single night if they are going to beat this Golden State team.

“Howard is highly criticised and he’s headed to the Hall of Fame. Bogut, because expectations are lower, can have a zero-point night and they can still win.”


Both JVG and SVG are usually spot on with their commentary.

 

[TradeDraft]

Where does he say that Dave?


“You’re talking about the number one pick, you can get Tim Duncan or you can get Andrew Bogut,” said Van Gundy, adding he did not want to disrespect Bogut.

“You can get a Hall of Famer or you can get another guy.”

“Both were number one picks in their respective drafts.

“It just shows you how hard it is to nail that No. 1 pick. There’s no guarantees. The Warriors have proven they can win with him or without him.”

“[Bogut] has absolutely no pressure on him. Whatever he gives them is a bonus. I don’t think they go in expecting him to put up big numbers.

“Whereas Dwight Howard has a much bigger burden. He has to be great every single night if they are going to beat this Golden State team.

“Howard is highly criticised and he’s headed to the Hall of Fame. Bogut, because expectations are lower, can have a zero-point night and they can still win.”


Both JVG and SVG are usually spot on with their commentary.

“You can get a Hall of Famer or you can get another guy.”

Right There

 

[Knightmare]

“You can get a Hall of Famer or you can get another guy.”

Right There

Bogut pretty accurately is "another guy."

He won't be a Hall of Famer. And he isn't nearly the best player from his draft class either. Or a best 10 center in the game.

But he is a starting center and a capable contributor.

And I'd say those comments imply that.

 

[wicksy]

“You can get a Hall of Famer or you can get another guy.”

Right There

He's not a hall of famer though.... Therefore, he's "another guy".

Bogut would be the equivalent to Kreuzer V Tim Duncan as Polly Farmer (Interestingly fact: Both are the same age )

Kruezer is a decent player, massively injury prone and is not guaranteed to win a game from his own palm/boot.
Polly on the other hand was vital to East Perth winning 3 premierships in the late 50's.

 

[Green Eggs]

He's not a hall of famer though.... Therefore, he's "another guy".

Bogut would be the equivalent to Kreuzer V Tim Duncan as Polly Farmer (Interestingly fact: Both are the same age )

Kruezer is a decent player, massively injury prone and is not guaranteed to win a game from his own palm/boot.
Polly on the other hand was vital to East Perth winning 3 premierships in the late 50's.

Disagree with this statement.. The way Bogut plays, he could play on for a while and he made the NBA All-Defensive 2nd team. Some would say the output definitely isn't worth a number 1 pick, but he plays a solid role and can play blinders. 5 blocks in game 2 is out of this world and instrumental in the win.

 

[Knightmare]

Disagree with this statement.. The way Bogut plays, he could play on for a while and he made the NBA All-Defensive 2nd team. Some would say the output definitely isn't worth a number 1 pick, but he plays a solid role and can play blinders. 5 blocks in game 2 is out of this world and instrumental in the win.

Both yourself and Wicksy are right - strange as it sounds in the sense that you're both disagreeing.

In terms of durability Wicksy is right in that Bogut hasn't in any regular season since his third season (2007-2008) even played 70 games. That's pretty terrible.

Bogut also because of his injury history these past three seasons has played limited minutes (less than 30 minutes per game each of the past three seasons). So he is getting very much managed just to get him through seasons.

When on the floor Bogut plays good, meaningful minutes. And you're right can have his big games, particularly on the defensive end with not only blocks but running the defense and limiting his opponent and protecting the rim well.

Bogut has more years left. But as things have been trending over the past three seasons, his role and minutes will become more limited over years to come. But he can still have an impact. He isn't getting any smaller and bigs tend to remain productive for longer, particularly if their games aren't athleticism based as is the case with Bogut.

NBA lifespans tend to be around 5 years longer than AFL lifespans so 30 in the AFL is basically 35 in the NBA. So Bogut probably plays till he is 35-36 which is still fine, just in those latter 2-3 years he probably comes off the bench in a reserve role.

Without going through name by name, Bogut is probably a best 10-15 center in the NBA. Which isn't pick one overall quality, but still very solid.

 

[the mighty T]

But as a Bulls fan I should really be supporting the Cavs from the standpoint of I really want Tom Thibodeau back as head coach, and if Atlanta win that series Thibodeau even more certainly isn't coming back, but perhaps if the Cavs swept the Hawks, then maybe Thibs still has some chance of returning.

Thibs is such an incredible coach. In his first season helps Rose from nowhere win the MVP and after a 41-41 record under Del Negro takes the team to equal back to back best regular season records in the game. He helped Deng become a two time all star. Helped Noah become a two time all star. Helped Butler develop from the final pick in the first round and not a part of the rotation to a role player, to a starter to an all star and still improving. Helped rejuvenate Pau Gasol and help him even at an advanced age put up career level numbers. And defensively he is as good as any coach in the NBA.
Perhaps he could hire and offensive coach and they can implement a better offensive system - something like Alvin Gentry who is a heck an of offensive coach and has helped that Golden State offense become as good as it has become.
But in saying that Thibs wouldn't hire an offensive coach as someone who likes that responsibility himself. I find the Bulls offense this year broke down more so due to lack of playing time of those key players together and not enough time to get them playing together. So even offensively while it's on the floor been flawed, it was never not going to be with the starters until the playoffs rarely playing together.

And as such a great defensive coach and developer of talent and someone who enables key players to play their best basketball. Working harder than anyone in the NBA. I want him back, even though 90/10 it's not happening.

I appreciate the opinion on Thibs, but the fact is our offense was downright pedestrian this season. It takes us 10 seconds to get the damn offence set which must have resulted in the most shot clock violations of any team in the league. This was especially true in playoffs, which is unacceptable. Settling for poor shots, throwing up airballs.. not good enough going forward. The offence under Thibs this year (who demanded a greater degree of control over the offense this year) was almost entirely isolation focused and ball movement was non existent.. this is archaic and just not good enough for a team challenging for a title.

I don't have a problem if he stays, but I cant see how he will as it seems like the front office has made up their mind and we'll end up with Hoiberg. Truth is though, this team needs a shake up and I would be shopping everyone with the exception of Butler, Rose and Mirotic. I just cant see Noah finding any sort of consistency to his game.. he looked broken this year. Pau is on a good contract for us, but if we decide to make moves itll be tough to keep him motivated. Gibson and Kirk are well past their use by date imo and I'd be okay with Dunleavy moving on if it meant more minutes for the supremely talented McDermott and Tony Snell.

There just needs to be a change because I don't think this core is bringing home a title. And with the majority of our money tied up in contracts, we don't have the flexibility to top up with quality and challenge the likes of Cleaveland, Washington and Indiana in the east next season

 

[Knightmare]

I appreciate the opinion on Thibs, but the fact is our offense was downright pedestrian this season. It takes us 10 seconds to get the damn offence set which must have resulted in the most shot clock violations of any team in the league. This was especially true in playoffs, which is unacceptable. Settling for poor shots, throwing up airballs.. not good enough going forward. The offence under Thibs this year (who demanded a greater degree of control over the offense this year) was almost entirely isolation focused and ball movement was non existent.. this is archaic and just not good enough for a team challenging for a title.

I don't have a problem if he stays, but I cant see how he will as it seems like the front office has made up their mind and we'll end up with Hoiberg. Truth is though, this team needs a shake up and I would be shopping everyone with the exception of Butler, Rose and Mirotic. I just cant see Noah finding any sort of consistency to his game.. he looked broken this year. Pau is on a good contract for us, but if we decide to make moves itll be tough to keep him motivated. Gibson and Kirk are well past their use by date imo and I'd be okay with Dunleavy moving on if it meant more minutes for the supremely talented McDermott and Tony Snell.

There just needs to be a change because I don't think this core is bringing home a title. And with the majority of our money tied up in contracts, we don't have the flexibility to top up with quality and challenge the likes of Cleaveland, Washington and Indiana in the east next season

The thought process a few days back anyway was Hoiberg is likely to stay in college with Alvin Gentry considered the new front-runner, though that was 3-4 days back so things can change pretty quickly from that perspective. If Hoiberg is hired I'd be incredibly upset. He is a college coach, and has been there for some years, but hardly has been the best of the recent college coaches. And he doesn't have experience as a NBA coach be it as a head coach or assistant. As a contending team, I just don't see him as a worthwhile option. Particularly given he patterns a number of his offensive plays and even names a few of them after what Thibs names his offence plays. Maybe Alvin Gentry if he comes with one of the better 1-2 defensive assistants in the game. But that's about the only scenario I'd be even mildly ok with moving Thibs, with Thibs after Pop that for me next best coach, with Doc Rivers the other guy I'd have in that conversion.

You're right in all your observations regarding the Bulls offence and how long it too to set up, how little ball movement there is and how micro-managed the offense is. But even with that understanding I still see more harm than good coming from losing Thibs while I'm in likely what I'd imagine to be the minority of probably 5%, I give Thibs the benefit of the doubt from the perspective that the primary rotation haven't had the opportunity to play or practice together enough to get that offensive chemistry established to get all those elements completely right.

Thibs defensively has the best defensive schemes in the NBA and gets his players playing harder than any other NBA coach. Then in addition to that he also from a player development arguably does the best job with everyone who is used in the rotation under Thibs improving substantially.

What I will concede with Thibs, and he won't go for it as he will only accept holding the responsibility of both sides of the ball, is to hire an offensive coach such as Alvin Gentry (who ran the Golden State offence this season). That would be optimal if he could come in, run that, and have Thibs just be the head coach and on game day the coach on the defensive end. But that's the concession you make with Thibs, and again I'll concede I'm in the minority, I'd still make that concession willingly understanding how much Thibs offers in every other area.

On Noah's production. He came into the season hurt and struggled as a result. He should come back fresher and better next season. If he does and injuries/niggles don't get in his way he can get back to being the Bulls best player as he was in the 13/14 season. The one thing I didn't like is the way the Bulls used Noah this season, he was chasing guys around the perimeter too much which he can do, but it's not his best way to have an impact on the defensive end, and it's a further reason beyond his physical conditioning/health that held him back.

In terms of making moves. I don't believe any necessarily moves need to be made. I have incredible faith in the quality of guys the Bulls bring in through the draft and free agency. I feel McDermott can become Korver but with the ability to drive, score in the post and from mid range. Snell I feel can become Jimmy Butler lite or perhaps an Aaron Afflalo equivalent. Mirotic plays James Harden-esque basketball if that can be said of a forward, but he draws fouls, drives, moves it and shoots and finishes like Harden, not that he is or will be the same player, but he can be a high level starter or 6th man for the Bulls. So I see the pieces on the Bulls roster as being there with Rose able to improve further after his excellent playoff play and Noah playing hurt this season and likely to be better next season when should be more healthy.
The Bulls pretty easily can just add another point guard at the minimum to back-up Kirk, add another long term piece to stash/develop for the season and add another backup big for the minimum and all the pieces really are there assuming a healthy run.
- Or at least with Thibs coaching that's how I'd look at it because he has that much success in developing players that I would back in those outcomes with confidence. Anyone else, I'd reconsider those projections.

Gibson will be the Bull most heavily rumoured in trades given Mirotic is proving so good and needs minutes. And if a wing, be it a Snell or McDermott isn't moved then it is unlikely that Dunleavy returns, and Brooks surely gets his money elsewhere also.

I'm just more in the keep it as is. Dunleavy is important and I'd like to bring him back, even if it is off the bench as someone who seems league-wide to be greatly undervalued. Gibson I'd keep for depth as Noah's health is unclear and he may for all we know leave as a free agent following next season. Then Gasol is a 35 year old. And then as with this season, injuries happen, and with Gasol in his mid 30s, further high level depth is required. So even if like this season with Mirotic if he needs to play at the 3 to get minutes, I'd do it.

The one move I have considered is a move of Gasol, Snell, McDermott, the Bulls first round pick for this year and the Sacramento future protected pick to Atlanta for Horford as one example of a trade I really like for both teams. Gasol gives Atlanta more height down low to better balance the front line assuming they can bring back Millsap who is a small power forward, Snell is an ideal wing defender for a contending team such as Atlanta as someone who can take LeBron/KD/Paul George etc and also hit open 3s which will work in the ball movement system. McDermott could be Korver's successor and may even be a better version as he has the 3pt shooting and more tricks in his arsenal, that Thibs just hasn't given him the chance to show yet. And some picks Atlanta probably can do something with. Critically all three players are on bargain contracts which will suit Atlanta who are fairly frugal and will also allow them to be big free agency players into the future and allow them to maintain their roster flexibility.
For the Bulls Horford as a previous college team-mate makes at Florida sense alongside Noah who he already has chemistry with and gives the Bulls front-line better versatility on defence and offence and with Horford younger it will from a long-term perspective work better with this group.
In this scenario I would look to bring back Dunleavy who wants to return anyway, as he would be required without Snell and McDermott, then I'd look to get the best wing possible as a free agent, or look to move Gibson for the best available wing failing that.

--
Assuming the Bulls retain their first pick this year. Frank Kaminsky was my dream pick but will go more around 10 than 22. Myles Turner and Trey Lyles I'd love if they slide but again they both probably go around pick 10. Cameron Payne I like as a point guard and probably goes around pick 15. Devon Booker and Jarian Grant I like also but again probably go inside the top 20. Which leaves a Delon Wright as a SNR who is a great immediate fit at the point guard as an ideal year one, game one backup who plays great two way basketball. Or failing him maybe an RJ Hunter as the shoot guard as something like a Marco Belinelli equivalent from this draft. With Terran Petteway another as a backup wing another I'd consider if there.

 

[Knightmare]

Looks like it will be a Warriors v Cavs final, quite possibly a sweep in both series.

The Cavs have been awfully lucky with Carroll playing hurt, Korver out for the playoffs now and Horford getting ejected in today's game. But that's all you need sometimes.

 

[nahnah]

Wouldn't call having three starters on the bench in suits luck (questionable whether Varejao is still a starter but trying to make a point here )

 

[Knightmare]

Wouldn't call having three starters on the bench in suits luck (questionable whether Varejao is still a starter but trying to make a point here )

The luck is more in terms of, what to expect going into the series.

But you're right about the luck the Cavs have had in general. Love out for the playoffs. That should have meant curtains alone. Then Varajao has been out for the season. The Cavs could maybe have been vulnerable v the Bulls with JR Smith missing two games. So things haven't beyond the names added to the roster all gone the Cavs way.

But this season v Atlanta certainly looks to have, just as the Bulls series with Pau getting hurt similarly really swinging in the Cavs direction.

 

[nahnah]

The luck is more in terms of, what to expect going into the series.

But you're right about the luck the Cavs have had in general. Love out for the playoffs. That should have meant curtains alone. Then Varajao has been out for the season. The Cavs could maybe have been vulnerable v the Bulls with JR Smith missing two games. So things haven't beyond the names added to the roster all gone the Cavs way.

But this season v Atlanta certainly looks to have, just as the Bulls series with Pau getting hurt similarly really swinging in the Cavs direction.

Thoughts on Delly ? Dirty or not ? Imo he beat Korver to the ball and Korver stepped into a sliding delly. Second one was a joke, horford pushed him over Carroll. Is delly meant to make sure he avoids all contact with the very that is shoving him

 

[nahnah]

And yes with the way we played today im fully aware we are in huge trouble agaisnt the Warriors