Mega Thread The new Bucks mega-thread. It's Official. 2 Year Deal for Bucks.

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BringouttheGimp

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It wasnt GWS giving up pick 2, it was Melbourne as a swap for pick 10. (Which would maybe value the trade as a pick 5 or 6, however you want to value the upgrade).

This talk of getting other talent from GWS is a bit rich - I highly doubt they would've given up someone like Shiel, and not as a straight swap for Shaw.
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As for Adams - as a direct trade for Shaw I think it was a very good outcome.
Adams of himself is a great, probably A-grade, inside mid - and that was a position we were sorely missing at that stage with none of our best mids (Swan, Pendles, Sidey, Beams) being able to provide that kind of pressure.

Problem was we followed it with two other moves that would fill the same role in the 22 (Greenwood, JDG). I think we got caught in the trap of trying to stay good/decent in the short term, and in hindsight wouldve been better off not using the money and 2nd rounder on Greenwood, and just letting Adams and then JDG grow into that role (whilst being worse off in the short term).
Blows the whole 'get the best player in the draft as your first pick' principle right out of the water hey re?

I'm not questioning Adam's talent.. what I'm questioning is the decision at the time to target AIS Buckley coached players.. 3 of em on our list is a big enough sample to suggest a bias towards them..
 

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No SPIN

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Blows the whole 'get the best player in the draft as your first pick' principle right out of the water hey re?

I'm not questioning Adam's talent.. what I'm questioning is the decision at the time to target AIS Buckley coached players.. 3 of em on our list is a big enough sample to suggest a bias towards them..
You have no evidence to back up your theory - you are just speculating.
If you want to create a conspiracy at least offer some evidence - and 3 on our list proves nothing. Make a case for which superior GWS players we overlooked in the respective years we traded in, Treloar, WHE and Adams.
It's pretty simple mate.
 

mike123

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You have no evidence to back up your theory - you are just speculating.
If you want to create a conspiracy at least offer some evidence - and 3 on our list proves nothing. Make a case for which superior GWS players we overlooked in the respective years we traded in, Treloar, WHE and Adams.
It's pretty simple mate.
You also have no evidence to disprove that theory.
 

didaksrightfoot

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Blows the whole 'get the best player in the draft as your first pick' principle right out of the water hey re?

I'm not questioning Adam's talent.. what I'm questioning is the decision at the time to target AIS Buckley coached players.. 3 of em on our list is a big enough sample to suggest a bias towards them..
But would it not be more a matter that they were players we knew well? And that all 3 wanted to come here because of their relationship with Bucks. (It's also not like other teams weren't trying to get them)

Both Adams and Treloar are, IMO, very good gets amd worth the price we paid. You can argue that we overpaid for Treloar - but I personally just think that is a price needed to get such top level talent.

Aish is the big question mark. We may have been rating him on his juniors and first year in the league, rather than his 2nd year, but we weren't the only club to do so. There was a fair bit of discussion that it wasn't injury or form that kept him out the AFL squad but rather Brisbane attitude towards a player wanting out.
Right now we overpaid. The next 6 months is Aish's chance to prove that wrong.

Personally I am happy with those signings. Getting guys who are 2-3 years into the system and (should be) still improving is in no way bad management. The fact that your coach already has a relationship with them, and that they want to play here, is even better.
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The arguments to be made are the guys over 25 who are brought into fill gaps (with wildly varying results) and whether, like many teams before us, we got caught trying to stay relevant to the finals picture rather than just bottoming out.
Hindsight its easy to say that some of those were wrong, but I think Collingwood is too proud a club to accept that kind of "tanking".
 

left at home

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But would it not be more a matter that they were players we knew well? And that all 3 wanted to come here because of their relationship with Bucks. (It's also not like other teams weren't trying to get them)

Both Adams and Treloar are, IMO, very good gets amd worth the price we paid. You can argue that we overpaid for Treloar - but I personally just think that is a price needed to get such top level talent.

Aish is the big question mark. We may have been rating him on his juniors and first year in the league, rather than his 2nd year, but we weren't the only club to do so. There was a fair bit of discussion that it wasn't injury or form that kept him out the AFL squad but rather Brisbane attitude towards a player wanting out.
Right now we overpaid. The next 6 months is Aish's chance to prove that wrong.

Personally I am happy with those signings. Getting guys who are 2-3 years into the system and (should be) still improving is in no way bad management. The fact that your coach already has a relationship with them, and that they want to play here, is even better.
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The arguments to be made are the guys over 25 who are brought into fill gaps (with wildly varying results) and whether, like many teams before us, we got caught trying to stay relevant to the finals picture rather than just bottoming out.
Hindsight its easy to say that some of those were wrong, but I think Collingwood is too proud a club to accept that kind of "tanking".
We should have bottomed out, but how many supporters would have agreed to that as well. At the time l was 50/50, but looking back now we should have
 

Mukesh

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Exactly this, same example as MM took over a spoon side in 99 onto back to back GF's 3 years later. Development obviously played a huge role in both examples to generate the cattle required along side list management / recruitment - however the whole footy world just looks at the guy in the chair instead of the whole footy department. I'd argue again that both examples had the FD around the big guy to get the job done.

IMV to just say that "we don't have the players" is a little simplistic as it doesn't take in the whole picture.

Commentary around the pies FD as a whole since the succession plan hasn't been complimentary to put it mildly and Nathan has copped the brunt - and that's the job. IF the new look FD can give Nath what he needs I stand by my opinion that he can still be a premiership coach.
MM had one significant advantage when he joined us, he had 'been there and done that' at both Footscray and WC. He knew what was required from himself and the club in order to succeed and win flags. Bucks had no such experience. In retrospect, throwing Nathan into the top job out of a fear he may go elsewhere reeks of panic and a feeling he may be lost to 'Ed's Pies' forever. It also looks like Nathan's loyalty to Collingwood really worked against him and the club. Both of them painted themselves into a corner and what's really regrettable is that it took so long for the club to recognize they made a bad hiring decision and so long for them to try and do something about it. Clearly MM pulling out of the agreed role did not help and our recruiting since 2010/11 has not been very successful. Time will tell if the club has now done enough to fix things....
 

Carringbush2010

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MM had one significant advantage when he joined us, he had 'been there and done that' at both Footscray and WC. He knew what was required from himself and the club in order to succeed and win flags. Bucks had no such experience. In retrospect, throwing Nathan into the top job out of a fear he may go elsewhere reeks of panic and a feeling he may be lost to 'Ed's Pies' forever. It also looks like Nathan's loyalty to Collingwood really worked against him and the club. Both of them painted themselves into a corner and what's really regrettable is that it took so long for the club to recognize they made a bad hiring decision and so long for them to try and do something about it. Clearly MM pulling out of the agreed role did not help and our recruiting since 2010/11 has not been very successful. Time will tell if the club has now done enough to fix things....
Whilst I agree that the succession plan was a mistake, I still stand by my speculation that it is never as simple as "we don't have the players" or "it's the coach" - these are simplistic views and don't take into the consideration the whole equation. And I still believe (because the club has identified a myriad of issues) there's still time for Nathan to prove his worth with the right support behind him, even though on face value it looks the 11th hour.
 
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Mukesh

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Whilst I agree that the succession plan was a mistake, I still stand by my speculation that it is never as simple as "we don't have the players" or "it's the coach" - these are simplistic views and don't take into the consideration the whole equation. And I still believe (because the club has identified a myriad of issues) there's still time for Nathan to prove his worth with the right support behind him, even on face value it looks the 11th hour.
I think we're on the same page...
 

Carringbush2010

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I think we're on the same page...
And we're definitely not alone, just look at a whole thread dedicated to the question if we could do a Dogs or Tigs by an opp poster. Obviously there is belief in the potential from our own and the opposition. That potential is just not being realised and that's the frustrating (uber:mad:) part.
 

Kappa

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It wasnt GWS giving up pick 2, it was Melbourne as a swap for pick 10. (Which would maybe value the trade as a pick 5 or 6, however you want to value the upgrade).

This talk of getting other talent from GWS is a bit rich - I highly doubt they would've given up someone like Shiel, and not as a straight swap for Shaw.
---

As for Adams - as a direct trade for Shaw I think it was a very good outcome.
Adams of himself is a great, probably A-grade, inside mid - and that was a position we were sorely missing at that stage with none of our best mids (Swan, Pendles, Sidey, Beams) being able to provide that kind of pressure.

Problem was we followed it with two other moves that would fill the same role in the 22 (Greenwood, JDG). I think we got caught in the trap of trying to stay good/decent in the short term, and in hindsight wouldve been better off not using the money and 2nd rounder on Greenwood, and just letting Adams and then JDG grow into that role (whilst being worse off in the short term).
For an experienced AFL midfielder, Adams is right in the middle of average, ridiculous to label him an A grader on the same level as a Kennedy Pendlebury Martin ect
 

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didaksrightfoot

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For an experienced AFL midfielder, Adams is right in the middle of average, ridiculous to label him an A grader on the same level as a Kennedy Pendlebury Martin ect
I did say Tay was "Probably A Grade" - really the only deficiency in his game is learning to play within his limitations offensively. Like Matt Priddis, Taylor needs to prioritise to distribute to his outside mids and runners with outlet handpasses thay open up space, and stop trying those pinpoint attacking kicks that either miss their target, make it difficult for our forwards, or come straight back as a turnover.

Also - I would say the 3 you listed are clearly elite and well above A grade. 1 just won the brownlow with arguably one of the best seasons in history, one is consistently in the top 3-5 players in the league, and the 3rd is one of the most consistent mids over the last 5-10 years who is a big game peformer.
Tay is clearly not at that level - but few players are. He is also not consistently at the level below those guys - but i dont think he's far behind that group, and depending on how you define "A Grade" he deserves to at least be in that discussion.

And he is clearly above average. He is a walk up start to any sides best 18, and for a good number of teams would be in their top 4 midfield rotation.
 
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Help My Club

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Dunno that we did.

3 AIS Buckley coached players from the GWS are in our squad.

I agree he has been excellent.. could be capt one day.. but was he the best choice at the time.. erghhhh probably not.. slightly bias choice.
"3 AIS Buckley coached players from the GWS are in our squad."

This is not surprising at all.

This love for Adams. Hard working - no doubt. But that's where it ends.
 

HeathComeBack

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I did say Tay was "Probably A Grade" - really the only deficiency in his game is learning to play within his limitations offensively. Like Matt Priddis, Taylor needs to prioritise to distribute to his outside mids and runners with outlet handpasses thay open up space, and stop trying those pinpoint attacking kicks that either miss their target, make it difficult for our forwards, or come straight back as a turnover.

Also - I would say the 3 you listed are clearly elite and well above A grade. 1 just one of the brownlow with arguably one of the best seasons in history, one is consistently in the top 3-5 players in the league, and the 3rd is one of the most consistent mids over the last 5-10 years who is a big game peformer.
Tay is clearly not at that level - but few players are. He is also not consistently be at the level below those guys - but i dont think he's far behind that group, and depending on how you define "A Grade" he deserves to at least be in that discussion.

And he is clearly above A Grade. He is a walk up start to any sides best 18, and for a good number of teams would be in their top 4 midfield rotation.
no hes not. The opposition let him run amok because they know they will get the ball back more than average. He will never get tagged because he is average. His kicking action has a huge flaw in it. His decision making is terrible. He has no footy smarts. In the JLT game he started off like he always did, by squaring up the ball and turning it over. He might have an average DE but that is a furphy, he hardly ever hits a target to advantage, most of the time the player who receives it has to fumble a bit to control it or run and get the ball cos it misses the target and that time lets the defenders get back in place. I had to laugh when he ran down the field and actioned to a forward to run towards him and then he kicked it over his head and it got turned over. Classic Adams.

Having said that I think we are using him wrong, He should be a deep forward to use his attributes, tackling and hardness. He can kick a goal and he would be good at defensively keeping the ball in the forward line. Might even turn out a little like Toby Greene.
 

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"3 AIS Buckley coached players from the GWS are in our squad."

This is not surprising at all.

This love for Adams. Hard working - no doubt. But that's where it ends.
Adams has room for improvement but he’s a fair bit better than hard working. He had a great season in 2017, and looks likely to continue that in 2018.
 

jmac70

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no hes not. The opposition let him run amok because they know they will get the ball back more than average. He will never get tagged because he is average. His kicking action has a huge flaw in it. His decision making is terrible. He has no footy smarts. In the JLT game he started off like he always did, by squaring up the ball and turning it over. He might have an average DE but that is a furphy, he hardly ever hits a target to advantage, most of the time the player who receives it has to fumble a bit to control it or run and get the ball cos it misses the target and that time lets the defenders get back in place. I had to laugh when he ran down the field and actioned to a forward to run towards him and then he kicked it over his head and it got turned over. Classic Adams.

Having said that I think we are using him wrong, He should be a deep forward to use his attributes, tackling and hardness. He can kick a goal and he would be good at defensively keeping the ball in the forward line. Might even turn out a little like Toby Greene.
Using examples from JLT 1 does not strengthen your arguement. Go back through his performances in 2017.
 

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Using examples from JLT 1 does not strengthen your arguement. Go back through his performances in 2017.
It is funny that as a group of supporters we are accused of overrating our players when if you used BF as the measure we focus so heavily on deficiencies. It amazes me that Adams gets such harsh criticism (as it does with Sidebottom and others). I agree his kicking can be very poor, but is can also be good. And what he does bring is an attack on the footy that is among the best in the competition. And with that attack he wins it a lot.

As someone else mentioned I think he could be a forward weapon, and would love to see him used there when De Goey comes back in.
 

BringouttheGimp

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It is funny that as a group of supporters we are accused of overrating our players when if you used BF as the measure we focus so heavily on deficiencies. It amazes me that Adams gets such harsh criticism (as it does with Sidebottom and others). I agree his kicking can be very poor, but is can also be good. And what he does bring is an attack on the footy that is among the best in the competition. And with that attack he wins it a lot.

As someone else mentioned I think he could be a forward weapon, and would love to see him used there when De Goey comes back in.
Measure of the man when he does lose it.. he doesn't go back into his shell or hide behind players.. he comes at you again and again.

And would love to see him up front.. I think he can hit the 30-40 goal mark easily.
 

mike123

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I like the idea of Adams as a defensive forward because he wins his own ball and unlike Greenwood he's quick enough to put pressure on.

I don't usually like the defensive forward concept in general but I feel with Adams it could work.

Would use Maynard, Adams, Thomas and De Geoy as mid/forwards so they can bring ball winning bite up forward when they rotate there.
 

Vicky Park

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It is funny that as a group of supporters we are accused of overrating our players when if you used BF as the measure we focus so heavily on deficiencies. It amazes me that Adams gets such harsh criticism (as it does with Sidebottom and others). I agree his kicking can be very poor, but is can also be good. And what he does bring is an attack on the footy that is among the best in the competition. And with that attack he wins it a lot.

As someone else mentioned I think he could be a forward weapon, and would love to see him used there when De Goey comes back in.
There is a tendency to focus on mistakes, and as you say, deficiencies. I think its tied up with our poor perfomances over the last four years, and our frustration with that. When things are going badly, we look for culprits, and after the coach its the players who make obvious mistakes that we focus on. This then accumulates and builds on itself until by season's end we are a frenzied bunch of critics, flailing about in our disappointment!

Personally, I'd like to see more Adams in the team, even if only for his mongrel. We just dont have enough of it, and seem to be too top heavy in 'nice' blokes.
 
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