Mega Thread The new Bucks mega-thread. It's Official. 2 Year Deal for Bucks.

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As I've said these type of comments have been flowing from the club for years now and this isn't an isolated incident.

An easier draw, new staffing appointments and the law of averages suggest we should return to finals next year and I can imagine now all the back slapping that will occur if it does.

The pass mark for me is finals but given we've been sold the Richmond example as the latest reason for the retention of Buckley that seems overly generous. Top 4 should be the goal.

Still it's a start and something positive to hang your hat on hang.

But what if that doesn't eventuate and we miss finals once again?

Are you and your mates even able to contemplate that the time for Buckley must then surely be up?

You seem incapable of being even remotely critical of the coach.

The simple reality is just about every coach in history would have been sacked with the results we've achieved the last 4 seasons, Buckley has been given further opportunity that basically no one ever gets, he's very lucky and only his name, player support and our Presidents reluctance to appoint a low profile replacement has seen him retained and the club is taking one hell of a calculated gamble on him.

We can ill afford another bottom eight finish as a club and if we do then I hope his chances are finally up.

Club before individual.

Forever.
You do understand what confirmation bias is yeah?

You search for anything that Phillips may have said that fits your pre-existing thoughts.

You think one small comment from Phillips confirms your thinking, that is textbook definition of confirmation bias.

Can't wait for you to pick holes in all pre-season puff piece articles.

Pendles says best vibe he can remember for a while = Buckley a dud who took six years to figure things out.

Treloar says the players are flying, best pre-season he can remember = Buckley wasn't ready to be senior coach.

It is laughable, that you actually don't see that your own preconceived thoughts are making you see things that Phillips wasn't saying.

Anyway play on, good news that the players continue to back their coach, something many didn't when he took over.
 

PhiloBeddoe

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my point is he is a follower not an innovator, he always has been, following does not win anything unless you are clearly better than your opposition.
Listen to Pendles Podcast he is totally an advocate of what i am saying. If you are not good enough to win doing the same you have to find another way. Nothing about Buckleys coaching has suggested he has the capabilities to do this
The amount of following that is done in the AFL world is nauseating.
Having had some experience in the system, I can tell you that innovation takes the shape of creating new words to replace old ones I.e. The spare became a plus one, set ups became structures, the rover became an inside mid, wingers became outside mids and so on. B Scott even thought it necessary to go back to 6 forwards in front of a stoppage and his assistants went "WOW!".

FFS, they started to use the word 'shape'. Even that was borrowed. Just as in any industry, using new jargon in place of old jargon is mistaken for innovation. I work in an industry where instead of real innovation, using the jargon has been reworked and using the jargon well means you have implemented new strategies.

One thing that Buckley and co haven't done is implemented strategies better than the opposition. Bevo did and so did Hardwick. Hardly innovators. Using handball or manic pressure from smalls in the forward line as a weapon? Like that hasn't happened before.

There's a s**t load more about the unnecessary FAPPING over strategies but don't want to clog up the thread. Perhaps we can discuss it via DM at some stage.
 

swoop42

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Gee, are there actually any negative comments made over the last 4-5 years you haven't rehashed? All asked and answered in various threads over the last 4-5 years. Do yourself a favour, turn around 180 degrees, the future is in the other direction. All this angst because Phillips (apparently) made an innocuous comment you feel validates your negative agenda, the old 2+2= Einsteins theory of relativity.

Once again I made the simple observation that Phillips was merely parroting what we've all heard before on how Buckley is now apparently a changed man for the good.

It's getting old and it was others who made it into something more.

And by the way it's actually you who was wanting to rehash every pro Buckley sentiment used over the years in an earlier post in his defence (injuries, declining list, Ebola) and some of us don't feel the need to keep repeating the same for and against arguments in every post on the issue.

Just because I don't post it doesn't mean I'm suddenly not aware of all previous debate though.

As for looking forward most people with torn loyalties over the coach have done that for the past couple of years for the greater good of the club but it's about time some of the rusted on Buckley supporters look within and actually contemplate whether their putting the man ahead of the club or even worse their own ego because their desperate to be proven right in the end.
 

TKiL

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..... FFS, they started to use the word 'shape'. Even that was borrowed. Just as in any industry, using new jargon in place of old jargon is mistaken for innovation. I work in an industry where instead of real innovation, using the jargon has been reworked and using the jargon well means you have implemented new strategies. One thing that Buckley and co haven't done is implemented strategies better than the opposition. Bevo did and so did Hardwick. Hardly innovators. Using handball or manic pressure from smalls in the forward line as a weapon? Like that hasn't happened before. There's a s**t load more about the unnecessary FAPPING over strategies but don't want to clog up the thread. Perhaps we can discuss it via DM at some stage.
I remember watching Carlton handball a lot in the 2nd half of the 1970 Grand final :(:mad:
 

TKiL

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.........FFS, they started to use the word 'shape'. Even that was borrowed. Just as in any industry, using new jargon in place of old jargon is mistaken for innovation. I work in an industry where instead of real innovation, using the jargon has been reworked and using the jargon well means you have implemented new strategies. One thing that Buckley and co haven't done is implemented strategies better than the opposition. Bevo did and so did Hardwick. Hardly innovators. Using handball or manic pressure from smalls in the forward line as a weapon? Like that hasn't happened before. There's a s**t load more about the unnecessary FAPPING over strategies but don't want to clog up the thread. Perhaps we can discuss it via DM at some stage.

Talking of innovation - someone at Hawthorn was ahead of the game to engage these guys
http://www.vangeldermonk.com/consulting.html

They are major bright - both of them. Putting this extract from their site here as have to scroll a bit to find it:

"Cognitive Process Review
Our distinctive speciality is cognitive process review. That is, we help organisations examine and improve the processes they have for making judgements of particular kinds.
A review generally results in recommendations for improving the processes so that better judgements are made, or that the process works more efficiently. We also assist with the implementation of recommendations.
Sometimes our contribution is to help design and implement a custom process to handle a particular challenge.
We have conducted dozens of engagements of this kind. Examples include:
Elite Sports Coaching
In 2014 we conducted a review of coaching decision making at Hawthorn Football Club. To our knowledge this was the first such independent review at any Australian elite sports organisation. After conducting interviews, and extensive close observation of the coaches at work, we produced a report with some twenty recommendations for improving decision making. Hawthorn, already reigning premiers, went on to win again in 2014 and 2015, making it arguably the greatest AFL team in history".

Just ignore the bit in red font!!

My point is - Hawthorn having won the flag sought out 2 of the most innovative thinkers in Australia to help maintain a competitive edge
 

PhiloBeddoe

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Talking of innovation - someone at Hawthorn was ahead of the game to engage these guys
http://www.vangeldermonk.com/consulting.html

They are major bright - both of them. Putting this extract from their site here as have to scroll a bit to find it:

"Cognitive Process Review
Our distinctive speciality is cognitive process review. That is, we help organisations examine and improve the processes they have for making judgements of particular kinds.
A review generally results in recommendations for improving the processes so that better judgements are made, or that the process works more efficiently. We also assist with the implementation of recommendations.
Sometimes our contribution is to help design and implement a custom process to handle a particular challenge.
We have conducted dozens of engagements of this kind. Examples include:
Elite Sports Coaching
In 2014 we conducted a review of coaching decision making at Hawthorn Football Club. To our knowledge this was the first such independent review at any Australian elite sports organisation. After conducting interviews, and extensive close observation of the coaches at work, we produced a report with some twenty recommendations for improving decision making. Hawthorn, already reigning premiers, went on to win again in 2014 and 2015, making it arguably the greatest AFL team in history".

Just ignore the bit in red font!!

My point is - Hawthorn having won the flag sought out 2 of the most innovative thinkers in Australia to help maintain a competitive edge
If it comes off, you're an innovator. If it fails, you're just another tosser who overshot the mark. Well done to Hawthorn for making it work.
 

swoop42

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You do understand what confirmation bias is yeah?

You search for anything that Phillips may have said that fits your pre-existing thoughts.

You think one small comment from Phillips confirms your thinking, that is textbook definition of confirmation bias.

Can't wait for you to pick holes in all pre-season puff piece articles.

Pendles says best vibe he can remember for a while = Buckley a dud who took six years to figure things out.

Treloar says the players are flying, best pre-season he can remember = Buckley wasn't ready to be senior coach.

It is laughable, that you actually don't see that your own preconceived thoughts are making you see things that Phillips wasn't saying.

Anyway play on, good news that the players continue to back their coach, something many didn't when he took over.

You do realise that the only way Phillips or anyone can detect improvement is because they can compare a current situation to a former and induce that a better way of doing things is now occurring.

If he can perceive Buckley is doing something better now it stands to reason he wasn't either doing it before or doing it as successfully and as such what was producing a negative or neutral reaction is now more likely producing a neutral or positive response in individuals.

Personally I find it laughable that you don't believe your own preconceived ideas on Buckley aren't tainting your view, that issues of concern surrounding his man management skills haven't been widely debated for years now and Philips is the first and only to voice his opinion that Buckley has now apparently changed for the better.
 

noideaatall

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So, I have no idea here, do pies players get to say whatever whenever or is what, when and where they say all orchestrated? I would have thought something between these two is the reality. So is this from Phillips something the club approved/suggested or totally off his own bat? It is a positive in the sense that it seems to be addressing a suggested (from outside) need but overall a negative in terms of PR for the club.
 

jackcass

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Once again I made the simple observation that Phillips was merely parroting what we've all heard before on how Buckley is now apparently a changed man for the good.

It's getting old and it was others who made it into something more.

And by the way it's actually you who was wanting to rehash every pro Buckley sentiment used over the years in an earlier post in his defence (injuries, declining list, Ebola) and some of us don't feel the need to keep repeating the same for and against arguments in every post on the issue.

Just because I don't post it doesn't mean I'm suddenly not aware of all previous debate though.

As for looking forward most people with torn loyalties over the coach have done that for the past couple of years for the greater good of the club but it's about time some of the rusted on Buckley supporters look within and actually contemplate whether their putting the man ahead of the club or even worse their own ego because their desperate to be proven right in the end.

I think you need to go back and re-read the thread. You're the one who claimed Phillips actually confirmed how disadvantaged we have been under Bucks, triggering the responses of myself and others.
 
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DraftBalta

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So Elliott is now having end of year surgery at the start of the pre season

Yeah Bucks is the problem... not all the mind ****ing idiots above him :mad:
 

jackcass

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You do realise that the only way Phillips or anyone can detect improvement is because they can compare a current situation to a former and induce that a better way of doing things is now occurring.

If he can perceive Buckley is doing something better now it stands to reason he wasn't either doing it before or doing it as successfully and as such what was producing a negative or neutral reaction is now more likely producing a neutral or positive response in individuals.

When was the last time a player said things had gone backwards during a pre-season interview?

Personally I find it laughable that you don't believe your own preconceived ideas on Buckley aren't tainting your view, that issues of concern surrounding his man management skills haven't been widely debated for years now and Philips is the first and only to voice his opinion that Buckley has now apparently changed for the better.

You actually have 1st hand knowledge of these apparent man management skills of Bucks? Or much like your observations on the Phillips interview, adding 2+2 and coming up with something other than 4?
 

jackcass

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So, I have no idea here, do pies players get to say whatever whenever or is what, when and where they say all orchestrated? I would have thought something between these two is the reality. So is this from Phillips something the club approved/suggested or totally off his own bat? It is a positive in the sense that it seems to be addressing a suggested (from outside) need but overall a negative in terms of PR for the club.

Id imagine that all the players receive media training, it's then up to the individual player how they respond. Among the player group you'd get the full gammet, from very good media performers (Sidey, Pendles, Swanny, Ball types) to really poor who struggle with nerves or poor communication skills.
 
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The amount of following that is done in the AFL world is nauseating.
Having had some experience in the system, I can tell you that innovation takes the shape of creating new words to replace old ones I.e. The spare became a plus one, set ups became structures, the rover became an inside mid, wingers became outside mids and so on. B Scott even thought it necessary to go back to 6 forwards in front of a stoppage and his assistants went "WOW!".

FFS, they started to use the word 'shape'. Even that was borrowed. Just as in any industry, using new jargon in place of old jargon is mistaken for innovation. I work in an industry where instead of real innovation, using the jargon has been reworked and using the jargon well means you have implemented new strategies.

One thing that Buckley and co haven't done is implemented strategies better than the opposition. Bevo did and so did Hardwick. Hardly innovators. Using handball or manic pressure from smalls in the forward line as a weapon? Like that hasn't happened before.

There's a s**t load more about the unnecessary FAPPING over strategies but don't want to clog up the thread. Perhaps we can discuss it via DM at some stage.
But isnt experimentation (even using old outdated strategies) better than doing something over and over again and it not working?
There are a lot of variables that determine if you are successful or not. There is game style, player ability, Coaching Strategies, Player management, other variables that i cannot think of at the moment. All of these can be tweaked. Sometimes they can be tweaked so much that they end up being successful (see MM 2010, Clarkson 2008 2013-15 Bevo 2016 and a few others), Sometimes they can be tweaked and almost get there (see Port 2014 Saints Freo, lyon years) and heaps of others, and they get worked out and they never reach the summit. And sometimes they are just plain failures.
But if you are mediocre and don't tweak, or follow better sides doing the same things you will just be stagnant or go backwards. This has been our lot under Buckley.
I have said many times we have a pretty decent list (although the lack of change this year really worries me) and we just need to tweak some of the structures to try and improve. Our biggest problem last year was getting smashed on the rebound. Yet our forward line was loose all year. so i would have tweaked it by moving some of the more defensive type players up forward, I really think we can improve by repositioning some of our players too, but Buckley has made about 3 moves in the last few years, Howe down back and Reid forward and back and Crisp right back , Of course he has made a few others but seems to abandon those changes way too quickly. Once the season was gone last year i would have played De GOey permanently in the forward line, tried some of the fringe players in their correct positions for a few games to see what they got (Aish predominately in the mids is one example) but he just stuck to the same game plan with the same players in the same positions and the same ins and outs every week right until the last couple of games. Its quite frustrating especially when we had nothing to play for,
 
Once again I made the simple observation that Phillips was merely parroting what we've all heard before on how Buckley is now apparently a changed man for the good.

It's getting old and it was others who made it into something more.

And by the way it's actually you who was wanting to rehash every pro Buckley sentiment used over the years in an earlier post in his defence (injuries, declining list, Ebola) and some of us don't feel the need to keep repeating the same for and against arguments in every post on the issue.

Just because I don't post it doesn't mean I'm suddenly not aware of all previous debate though.

As for looking forward most people with torn loyalties over the coach have done that for the past couple of years for the greater good of the club but it's about time some of the rusted on Buckley supporters look within and actually contemplate whether their putting the man ahead of the club or even worse their own ego because their desperate to be proven right in the end.
Buckley has a two year deal.
 

PieNSauce

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As I've said these type of comments have been flowing from the club for years now and this isn't an isolated incident.

An easier draw, new staffing appointments and the law of averages suggest we should return to finals next year and I can imagine now all the back slapping that will occur if it does.

The pass mark for me is finals but given we've been sold the Richmond example as the latest reason for the retention of Buckley that seems overly generous. Top 4 should be the goal.

Still it's a start and something positive to hang your hat on hang.

But what if that doesn't eventuate and we miss finals once again?

Are you and your mates even able to contemplate that the time for Buckley must then surely be up?

You seem incapable of being even remotely critical of the coach.

The simple reality is just about every coach in history would have been sacked with the results we've achieved the last 4 seasons, Buckley has been given further opportunity that basically no one ever gets, he's very lucky and only his name, player support and our Presidents reluctance to appoint a low profile replacement has seen him retained and the club is taking one hell of a calculated gamble on him.

We can ill afford another bottom eight finish as a club and if we do then I hope his chances are finally up.

Club before individual.

Forever.
For those who missed it, I'll translate the above...
A fluff piece article is now defined officially as "an incident"! If Bucks does get us into finals next year it has nothing to do with him. It's just the law of averages at work. Oh and by the way... I hate Bucks!
 

swoop42

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For those who missed it, I'll translate the above...
A fluff piece article is now defined officially as "an incident"! If Bucks does get us into finals next year it has nothing to do with him. It's just the law of averages at work. Oh and by the way... I hate Bucks!

I wonder if you accept that Buckley has also played his part in us not making finals the last 4 seasons?

You can't have it both ways. Some of us see all the problems not all the problems bar the senior coach.

You can be damn sure the usual suspects will be hailing Buckley as the driving force behind our return to finals should we make it and completely ignore all the other changes made because of the review and the easier draw because we finished 13th.

You can also be damn sure the usual suspects will provide us with a new round of excuses if we don't make the eight and why it's everyone's fault other than the coach. They also wont be calling for his removal, citing a 2 year deal like that should mean squat if we fail once again. It's always just another year away with Buckley just like at the end of 2015 and 16.

After 4 years in the wilderness I would have thought it was pretty obvious that the wheel is likely to turn in our favour next season because of the easier draw and with all the off field changes a return to finals is imminent. I would have felt the same if the best assistant in the land had of been appointed also.

We've been sold the Richmond example so let's see how close we can get to actually replicating that.

The time for excuses has well and truly ended.

Well for some of us.
 
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I worry our short fall will be crumbling forwards and intense forward pressure which are Richmonds real strengths
You can coach forward pressure - If you look at the why the club appointed Gary Hocking as a stoppage coach and Longmuir as a team defence coach well there in lies your answer. The impact of that coaching to our mobile forwards will depend on the learning of Faz and Billy; personally I'm confident we'll see improvement there - enough to make a positive difference in the on field performance
 
Doesn’t matter, unless you’re only interested in constantly talking about the past.
Sadly the past is where our greatest success lies, now we can't even talk about that.:'(:D
 

mike123

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Doesn’t matter, unless you’re only interested in constantly talking about the past.
Npthing wrong about talking about the past especially now since there is nothing of note going in at the present.
 
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