The Next Tier

[rainwizard39]

Because if the players were half decent, they'd be getting picked up by other teams. Look around at the AFL, and there are so many players that were delisted and then got picked up by another team and did well. That means that the person who drafted them saw something and was right, whilst the coach was not able to get that performance out of them. (Which is what some ppl seem to say is happening at Port. Good list management and bad development).

Clubs regularly pick up delisted players, either in the PSD, Rookie Draft and now the MSD.

How would you use available data to prove that the list management is good, and development is bad?

Nobody is picking up an untried delisted player. It’s just a lazy defence for the club not developing some of these players properly.

 

[longdonkey]

I don't believe our lack of success over the last 21 years is all down to Ken.

No its not, he was ONLY responsible for 13 of them.

 

[The Hobo]

Nobody is picking up an untried delisted player. It’s just a lazy defence for the club not developing some of these players properly.

Who is it that wasn't developed properly? Names?

They don't get picked up because they're not good. If they were good, they'd get picked up. Pretty simple. Clubs have eyes and ears everywhere these days, and when they leave a club, they invariably go and play at state level in the VFL/SANFL/WAFL etc. If they're good and impress there, they can get picked up via one of the many pathways these days.

 

[rainwizard39]

Who is it that wasn't developed properly? Names?

They don't get picked up because they're not good. If they were good, they'd get picked up. Pretty simple. Clubs have eyes and ears everywhere these days, and when they leave a club, they invariably go and play at state level in the VFL/SANFL/WAFL etc. If they're good and impress there, they can get picked up via one of the many pathways these days.

You’ve said it x3 to me alone we get it.

My point was it’s not the great point you think. Do you honestly think every player ever who didn’t make is entirely because it was all them and never poor development? If we delisted Vis without ever debuting him do you think anyone picks him up? It’s just a dumb point.

 

[longdonkey]

Who is it that wasn't developed properly? Names?

Anybody who has primarily played in our SANFL team in the last 5 years

 

[agmsy]

Nobody is picking up an untried delisted player. It’s just a lazy defence for the club not developing some of these players properly.

This.

The league has a very strong bias towards youth. It takes a fair bit to convince a club to overlook new draftees in favour of a player who has already been on an AFL list - particularly when the player has been delisted with no or very few appearances at AFL level.

Absolutely a bunch might just be no good, but no doubt there are some who could make it (even if that just means a career of 50-100 passable AFL games) but who haven't shown that at their original club for whatever reason.

 

[Port 2004]

All unknowns except NWM. By the time the rest come in and get up to speed, we likely lose Aliir, Wines, Rioli, Burton and possibly even Marshall. There are no obvious replacements for any of these at the club today (possible Ramm for Aliir, but far too early to tell)

And that's assuming everyone else maintains or improves their form, nobody else wants to go home etc etc etc.

Gee you are always a bundle of joy.

 

[philthy05]

I'd say Sinn, Jones and Evans will be long term players. Jackson, Berry and Whitlock have potential but too early to tell. The others i'm doubtful will become anything

You don’t rate Lorenz?

He’s still an unknown at the top level, but there’s enough signs for me to put him in the “may become something” pile.

 

[philthy05]

I’ve raised the next tier as a problem for us. Not a problem that can’t be resolved tho.

I just think there’s too big a gap between our elites and the “other guys”

I think other teams have more players in between the butters / rozee elite talents and Dbj / spp role player types.

Hopefully we have some move up tho, arguably Bergman did this year into that gap.

was hoping that was gonna be burgs as well but he kinda stalled closer to spp/ dbj than to the elites.

 

[El_Scorcho]

49 goals in 2017
48 goals in 2021

Issue is he's never had support. Who was our number 2 key forward during this time? Teams knew they could sit on Charlie and intercept off Charlie because we had nobody else.

The issue was absolutely not that, at all.

Kicking a hospital ball to Dixon 35 times a game wasn't the result of Hinkley doing his best with the hand he was dealt, it was plan A for most of the last decade even when we had other key forwards up there.

Teams could sit on Charlie because he was standing still, under the direction of the coach so the high ball could easily find him. The one thing they couldn't do regularly was intercept off him because he was too big and strong under a high ball so he'd either mark it or the ball would spill, which again, if you'd watched the games, was the basis of our gameplan for like 7 years.

Again, Dixon's best season for goals per game was at the Gold Coast. It wasn't here despite us finishing up the ladder a bunch of times. Plenty of other teams have big strong high quality key forwards. Plenty of teams have managed to make 1 key forward successful with young players or smalls around them. Our forward system has been a shitshow, something that works against teams we can simply outclass and breaks down against good sides under pressure.

 

[El_Scorcho]

How would you use available data to prove that the list management is good, and development is bad?

You've had this explained to you in so many threads jesus christ

 

[El_Scorcho]

Who is it that wasn't developed properly? Names?

They don't get picked up because they're not good. If they were good, they'd get picked up. Pretty simple. Clubs have eyes and ears everywhere these days, and when they leave a club, they invariably go and play at state level in the VFL/SANFL/WAFL etc. If they're good and impress there, they can get picked up via one of the many pathways these days.

Butcher, Pasini, Hayes, Marshall, Howard, Pittard, Powell-Pepper, Duursma. Hell, Wingard.

You continue to push this dumb argument.

The player being "not good" on being delisted is very different from them not having had the potential to be good. Whether they reach that potential is based on their development.

Teams have 40 odd list spots. Those spots are precious and need to be used correctly. Teams get spooked when a player isn't getting picked for a poor team who is crying out for players in his position.

No coach in the league has picked an out of position player instead of the next man up more frequently than Ken Hinkley. Players, especially tall players, take time and every other club manages to get those games into their young talls to get them up to speed.

 

[EskimoPAFC]

Butcher, Pasini, Hayes, Marshall, Howard, Pittard, Powell-Pepper, Duursma. Hell, Wingard.

You continue to push this dumb argument.

The player being "not good" on being delisted is very different from them not having had the potential to be good. Whether they reach that potential is based on their development.

Teams have 40 odd list spots. Those spots are precious and need to be used correctly. Teams get spooked when a player isn't getting picked for a poor team who is crying out for players in his position.

No coach in the league has picked an out of position player instead of the next man up more frequently than Ken Hinkley. Players, especially tall players, take time and every other club manages to get those games into their young talls to get them up to speed.

Garner, Dixon

 

[It Just Is]

The challenge with projecting this list of players forward is that most aren’t physically ready to play AFL. That in itself is an issue in some combination of recruitment and high performance. The Magpies set up clearly doesn’t work for development either.

When I look at other teams in the league, players 16-23 are generally not very good anywhere. The difference between us, Collingwood, Brisbane, Geelong etc. is that theirs are physically mature and gameplan mature.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Butcher, Pasini, Hayes, Marshall, Howard, Pittard, Powell-Pepper, Duursma. Hell, Wingard.

Garner, Dixon

Williams, Ah Chee. Both started like a house on fire only to be written off due to perceived flaws and disappear. Maybe Mason Shaw, but we never even gave him one opportunity, so who knows.

 

[Enviable Tradition]

The challenge with projecting this list of players forward is that most aren’t physically ready to play AFL. That in itself is an issue in some combination of recruitment and high performance. The Magpies set up clearly doesn’t work for development either.

When I look at other teams in the league, players 16-23 are generally not very good anywhere. The difference between us, Collingwood, Brisbane, Geelong etc. is that theirs are physically mature and gameplan mature.

I was thinking this this morning as well.

On SEN they said that Aliir, Georgiades and Burgoyne were all in the top 15 (I think it was 15) for time on ground this season.

Some of this is no doubt due to our in game injuries this year.

But some is no doubt because of the amount of young players we have. So it's not just their development as footballers that will help but their physical development to run out a game better themselves and also to take pressure off of the older guys who are doing so many minutes.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Williams, Ah Chee. Both started like a house on fire only to be written off due to perceived flaws and disappear. Maybe Mason Shaw, but we never even gave him one opportunity, so who knows.

We've also had several players that had a great season or 2 where they were tracking well and then had a rapid falloff in form under Hinkley to the point where they were delisted or cast off for miles below their peak value.

Broadbent, Trengove, Wingard, Pittard, Lobbe, Marshall.

 

[Peninsula Boy]

I think Aliir usually plays huge minutes and always has. Close to max.
I don't know about the other two.

 

[Schulzenfest]

We've also had several players that had a great season or 2 where they were tracking well and then had a rapid falloff in form under Hinkley to the point where they were delisted or cast off for miles below their peak value.

Broadbent, Trengove, Wingard, Pittard, Lobbe, Marshall.

Ryan Burton and Jeremy Finlayson (to be fair there are some extenuating circumstances there) both tracking to join this list. And if I may be controversial for a moment, so is Willem Drew.

 

[The Hobo]

Williams, Ah Chee. Both started like a house on fire only to be written off due to perceived flaws and disappear. Maybe Mason Shaw, but we never even gave him one opportunity, so who knows.

Ah Chee went to the eagles and played ~30 odd games for them before getting dumped as well. Suggests he probably wasn't good enough.

 

[The Hobo]

We've also had several players that had a great season or 2 where they were tracking well and then had a rapid falloff in form under Hinkley to the point where they were delisted or cast off for miles below their peak value.

Broadbent, Trengove, Wingard, Pittard, Lobbe, Marshall.

Wingard was still decent when he left us, and went to the Hawks and never to hit those heights either. Why wasn't master coach Clarkson or Mitchell able to get the best out of him?

Broadbent, Pittard and Lobbe all had decent seasons with us, but they were playing above their level during those years.
Broadbent and Lobbe were not particularly talented, Broadbent had massive fitness issues throughout his time with us etc.
Pittard went to the roos who were struggling badly, and still struggled to play games and got delisted by them.

Not everything is on the coach, as much as your confirmation bias likes to think so. The players have to take responsibility as well - and Wingard is a brilliant example of a player with truckloads of talent but lacking the commitment to maximise it.

 

[The Hobo]

Ryan Burton and Jeremy Finlayson (to be fair there are some extenuating circumstances there) both tracking to join this list. And if I may be controversial for a moment, so is Willem Drew.

Drew is a huge concern agreed. He's been dropped in previous seasons due to poor patches of form, but we are so badly lacking in depth at the moment, we can't afford to do that right now.

Burton is due to injuries. He's shown patches over his time with us of what he's capable of, but he rarely gets a full run at it, and appears to have a chronic hip issue that's impacting him all the time.

Finlayson had similar issues previously at GWS, and now throw in all the other circumstances, it's harsh to pin the blame on anyone or anything here.

 

[Peninsula Boy]

Is the guy that does the drafting the same as the guy that does the trades? Our trading has been decent, our drafting has not.

Well yeah, they are in the same department.

It depends on where you put your finite resources.

We got Horne-Francis in trading but with the same cash, we could've got Phillipou and Goad or Logan Morris but also dudded out on picks too.

Trading is a bit easier than drafting but a bit more costly.

 

[Coobk001]

Ok let me throw some more data in there wrt A-List players.
Let's call an A-Lister anyone that is in the Top 100 of average AF stats overall.

We have 4, Rozee, Butters, Wines and JHF in that Top 100.
Would anyone argue that any other player is currently an A-list player?
Bergman possibly based on midfield form?

Of those A-Listers, we have recruited just 1 in the last 5 years.
If the average playing life is 10 years, 1 in 5 years is pretty ordinary.

Port really do need a couple of A-List forwards and backs.
Will Port trade for them or draft them?

View attachment 2370100

This analysis doesn't quite work. Georgiades is 2nd in the Coleman, he is by every definition an A Grader.

 

[NoddyHolder]

Poor Kenny. Lumbered with so many spuds over his 13 years in charge. He deserves so much better. Hopefully another club will give him a go so his genius finally gets to shine in an environment he deserves

Love me Kenny. Love me dishlickers