The Next Tier

[El_Scorcho]

Wingard was still decent when he left us, and went to the Hawks and never to hit those heights either. Why wasn't master coach Clarkson or Mitchell able to get the best out of him?

Broadbent, Pittard and Lobbe all had decent seasons with us, but they were playing above their level during those years.
Broadbent and Lobbe were not particularly talented, Broadbent had massive fitness issues throughout his time with us etc.
Pittard went to the roos who were struggling badly, and still struggled to play games and got delisted by them.

Not everything is on the coach, as much as your confirmation bias likes to think so. The players have to take responsibility as well - and Wingard is a brilliant example of a player with truckloads of talent but lacking the commitment to maximise it.

Players don't magically reset on being traded to another team. Clarkson can't undo Wingard's experience under Hinkley. Wingard had clearly lost a lot of his enthusiasm for the game and being forced out in a trade just made that worse. This is the thing you flatly refuse to understand with your "why did none of these poorly developed players become superstars on leaving" argument. Humans are creatures of habit and they've developed habits over their time here that don't automatically break when they're traded, especially in the case of Pittard being traded to a very poor club. Pittard had lost confidence in the way he played and he wasn't getting that back at North

A player by definition can't play "above their level" unless they're on the Geelong supplements program.

What you saw in 2014 from Broadbent, Pittard and Lobbe was well coached, motivated players playing in a system they believed in. Players playing to their potential. Have we had a single player get the absolute best out of themselves week in week out since? Maybe Butters?

Other teams manage to turn their next tier into solid dependable role players who step up when it's their turn, like we did in 2013/14 and 1870-1996. After that Hinkley's attitude clearly changed, marked by his deck chair appearance in the 2015 preseason, and he stopped giving a shit. The players stopped giving a shit with him. Wingard falling out of love with the game, the co-captains going skiing in the leadup to the season, Broadbent on the darts, the Ladhams/Johnson/Houston trio partying to the point where it was affecting their training. A bunch of our key players in a gambling syndicate with the coach and GM of footy.

That doesn't happen at clubs where the standards are set high and enforced.

 

[Chewy316]

Ryan Burton and Jeremy Finlayson (to be fair there are some extenuating circumstances there) both tracking to join this list. And if I may be controversial for a moment, so is Willem Drew.

Drew is already there for me. Absolute shocker of a season. One of the worst users of the footy in the entire league. And now with Bergman in the middle teaming with Wines and JHF, I'm not sure there is the need for a 4th big bodied midfielder who offers little else outside of defensive work.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Drew is already there for me. Absolute shocker of a season. One of the worst users of the footy in the entire league. And now with Bergman in the middle teaming with Wines and JHF, I'm not sure there is the need for a 4th big bodied midfielder who offers little else outside of defensive work.

I expressed this concern when he was signed to a four year deal and I reckon about 90% of this board was against me then. A few now seeing the light it seems.

 

[Peninsula Boy]

Just dropping in about Drew.

Surely we are thinking of not Bergman playing a tagging role forever because he's too good. He needs to play one on one so it would mean that tagging role would be open again for Drew.

 

[The Hobo]

I expressed this concern when he was signed to a four year deal and I reckon about 90% of this board was against me then. A few now seeing the light it seems.

No doubt he's been poor this season, but i'm not sure that means it was a bad decision to sign him on. We know he can play.

His role is obviously impacted by Bergman, but do we honestly think Bergman is going to continue on as a tagger next season? I expect him to move on and be a prime mover for us, allowing Drew to be the defensive midfielder again. I see this as part of Bergman 'learning' the midfield role.

The second factor is it's possible he's got complacent. We've seen him dropped previously for poor form, and it woke him up into gear again. (I think it was maybe 2-3 seasons ago). The fact we can't drop him now as there's nobody to step in, means he could be just getting a bit too comfortable. It's why it's imperative we get a few AFL ready depth players in across most of our positions.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I'm not too worried about a dip in performance from anyone this year. The club has made it abundantly clear that this year is just for going through the motions and a lot of players are down on form, which is why we're 8-9 and out of finals contention

 

[Peninsula Boy]

I'm not too worried about a dip in performance from anyone this year. The club has made it abundantly clear that this year is just for going through the motions and a lot of players are down on form, which is why we're 8-9 and out of finals contention

Yep.

Once 'the decision'was rolled out, the year turned a bit more bleaker than usual.

 

[Long live PAFC]

I'm not too worried about a dip in performance from anyone this year. The club has made it abundantly clear that this year is just for going through the motions and a lot of players are down on form, which is why we're 8-9 and out of finals contention

Yea this is a huge factor this year.

AFL is about finding every little extra (legal) percentage you can. Fitness, drafting, trading, stadium you play at, how you fly, how you recover, how hard you train, if you do extra to keep fit and injury free, how’s you diet. If the culture at the club stumbles then those little extra bits fall away. Someone like Pendlebury (or Boak) highlights how you can get every little bit out of yourself. The standards around winning at Collingwood are elite - it drives someone like Frampton to get that extra bit out of him, which elevates him above a BZT or anyone at north. No doubt Billy fails at almost any other club. Even Essendon is a club that shows what everyone pushing together can do, despite the injury toll.

Players are getting older and can be successful even into their mid thirties. No reason Aliir couldn’t be solid at 34-6. What amazed me was the toll in that bracket that port has had. Jonas, Clurey, Dixon, Lobbe, Trengove, Schulz, Polec, Pittard, Ebert, - how many of these (and others) made it into their late twenties and thirties for us? Some of that is luck no doubt (acls, Achilles, concussions, etc) and some is the desire and knowledge to push yourself (like a Pendlebury or Boak). Some has to be high performance based and definitely game plan. Surely we could have gotten more years out of Carlile, Trengove, etc.

 

[Peninsula Boy]

Sinn has already taken a leap this year in my eyes. His last month or two has been excellent defensively, and there has been glimpses of his offensive side. I suspect this is more on him being able to gain confidence to know when to go and when to stay etc.

Yeah, he's been good but he's still leaving a lot on the table.

It irritates me a lot that a guy with a burst of speed off the mark doesn't use it in games to the full capacity.

 

[The Hobo]

Yeah, he's been good but he's still leaving a lot on the table.

It irritates me a lot that a guy with a burst of speed off the mark doesn't use it in games to the full capacity.

Let's not forget he's only played 25 games. Once he gets to 50 we should really start to see him go on with it.

May even be less games than that, as he's 22 already, but has played less games due to injuries.

 

[Peninsula Boy]

Let's not forget he's only played 25 games. Once he gets to 50 we should really start to see him go on with it.

May even be less games than that, as he's 22 already, but has played less games due to injuries.

He should be an exciting watch next year.

 

[longdonkey]

I want to see what these guys actually do with a better game plan. I'm not convinced that they are playing in their best positions at this stage. I wonder how much the downturn in Houston at Collingwood is due to not playing in the Hinkley system which shows it can work the other way too. Sinn, Farrell, Bergman- I wouldn't surprised if they end up with different roles under Carr. There's no way we are playing Bergman as a defensive mid long term.

 

[The Hobo]

There's no way we are playing Bergman as a defensive mid long term.

We've seen many mids develop their game as a defensive mid to begin with, I don't think it's the long term plan - even if Hinkley was to remain.

 

[Long live PAFC]

The other aspect to this is our seconds team.

We’ve all written of Anastasopoulos, Charleson, McEntee, Williams, Lord, Walsh, etc. Some are questioning Berry, Barrett, etc.

And our depth players have routinely struggled this year in the step up to AFL when called upon.

Has our SANFL side properly prepared our players? Has it developed players well?

Anasta, Chuck, Berry, Barrett, McEntee, - how can they properly develop forward craft when the ball rarely reaches our fifty? Let alone the quality of entries or idea of structure.

Same question could be asked of our defenders. Kyle Marshall, Pasini, Walsh, Ramm, etc etc. How can they properly develop skills, craft, structure, confidence, if the ball is constantly coming in? How can they be prepared to step up to AFL if that’s their prep?

Midfielders really the same.

Contrast that with many of the strong teams seconds out there. Whilst not necessarily higher in quality, the Crows, Cats, Suns, Swans, Pies, Dogs, Hawks all seem to have players that can step up and do a role at the next level. And they seem to be able to produce talent that goes on to be picked up in the MSD.

 

[Enviable Tradition]

A few guys showing a but in the SANFL today helps the depth look better