Play Nice The NM Devils Chessboard thread.

[Chadwiko]

Apparently for some people it is lol I don't think I've ever even argued that Ukraine as a nation is perfect I haven't seen anyone else argue that in any of the other topics on Ukraine either.

Literally no one has argued that Ukraine is some perfect and virtuous nation. Such a nation doesn't really exist.

As I've pointed out, even here at home we have fascists elected to our state and national parliaments; we have neo-nazis parading in our streets; we have neo-nazis in our armed forces deployed around the world; and we have neo-nazis in our state and territory police forces. One of our own citizens committed the Christchurch atrocity.

Does that mean Russia (or any nation) should be able to use it as justification for a hostile military invasion of our territory?

The answer is obvious. Unless you're regurgitating FSB talking points like a useful idiot.

 

[Chadwiko]

To understand the Nazism in Ukraine you need to look into the history of why they sided with Germany in the first place.

The 'Ukrainian Nazi problem' is such a BS justification/rationale for this invasion.

Italy was literally an Axis power, united as an ally with the Nazi regime.
Italy also just elected a far-right government and is dealing with a massive outbreak of fascism.

But I've never heard Putin or any Russian media complaining about that.

 

[Val Keating]

The 'Ukrainian Nazi problem' is such a BS justification/rationale for this invasion.

Italy was literally an Axis power, united as an ally with the Nazi regime.
Italy also just elected a far-right government and is dealing with a massive outbreak of fascism.

But I've never heard Putin or any Russian media complaining about that.

I’m not suggesting it has anything to do with the invasion, don’t think anyone outside of Russia would.

Just not ignoring that it is real.

 

[Chadwiko]

What's even more amusing about the Putin/FSB talking points about Ukraine and Naziism is that Russia is the poster-child for modern day neo-nazis.

It's why all the little conservative talking heads, from Tucker Carlson to Tulsi Gabbard, love and admire Putin and frequently defend him.

 

[Roos9699]

Literally no one has argued that Ukraine is some perfect and virtuous nation. Such a nation doesn't really exist.

As I've pointed out, even here at home we have fascists elected to our state and national parliaments; we have neo-nazis parading in our streets; we have neo-nazis in our armed forces deployed around the world; and we have neo-nazis in our state and territory police forces. One of our own citizens committed the Christchurch atrocity.

Does that mean Russia (or any nation) should be able to use it as justification for a hostile military invasion of our territory?

The answer is obvious. Unless you're regurgitating FSB talking points like a useful idiot.

Sadly there seems to be more and more of these sort around the globe.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

To understand the Nazism in Ukraine you need to look into the history of why they sided with Germany in the first place.

A lot more Ukrainians served in the red army than the nazis, even if you count Hiwi auxiliary non-combat formations and police units. Roughly 4.5 million Ukrainians served in the red army from 1943-45, not to mention the large number of men lost in 1941-43 and those that operated in partisan units.

Ukrainian numbers for the Germans range up to 250,000, plus maybe a few thousand extra local police and Hiwis. Most were from nationalist movements desiring independence, or retaliation from the earlier Holdomir and kulak purges.

Therefore, it is not completely historically accurate to say that they sided with the Germans. As you know, history and the truth is very complicated. A decent number did side with the Germans for racist, and ultra nationalist reasons and they were complicit in the holocaust. There were also nationalist groups that fought the Germans and the red army. But most sided with the reds, with a big reason being the holocaust and harsh Nazi racial and occupation policies.

People in the Baltics and Finland also have similar difficult discussions about their complicity in supporting the Nazi war machine, Holocaust, and their desire to oppose Russian/Soviet aggression.

As I said, history is complicated and sometimes weird. The last people defending Hitler’s Chancellory were Frenchmen from the SS Charlemagne division. Explain that to a modern Frenchman.

 

[Flawed Genius]

Keep the personal attacks off the thread thanks fellas. I'm confident there's very smart people here who can argue their points without resorting to name calling. If it continues in the same vein, the next step is thread bans, then days off.

 

[Val Keating]

A lot more Ukrainians served in the red army than the nazis, even if you count Hiwi auxiliary non-combat formations and police units. Roughly 4.5 million Ukrainians served in the red army from 1943-45, not to mention the large number of men lost in 1941-43 and those that operated in partisan units.

Ukrainian numbers for the Germans range up to 250,000, plus maybe a few thousand extra local police and Hiwis. Most were from nationalist movements desiring independence, or retaliation from the earlier Holdomir and kulak purges.

Therefore, it is not completely historically accurate to say that they sided with the Germans. As you know, history and the truth is very complicated. A decent number did side with the Germans for racist, and ultra nationalist reasons and they were complicit in the holocaust. There were also nationalist groups that fought the Germans and the red army. But most sided with the reds, with a big reason being the holocaust and harsh Nazi racial and occupation policies.

People in the Baltics and Finland also have similar difficult discussions about their complicity in supporting the Nazi war machine, Holocaust, and their desire to oppose Russian/Soviet aggression.

As I said, history is complicated and sometimes weird. The last people defending Hitler’s Chancellory were Frenchmen from the SS Charlemagne division. Explain that to a modern Frenchman.

Are those numbers swayed after Hitler turned on Stalin and attacked Russia?

 

[Mav]

The 'Ukrainian Nazi problem' is such a BS justification/rationale for this invasion.

Italy was literally an Axis power, united as an ally with the Nazi regime.
Italy also just elected a far-right government and is dealing with a massive outbreak of fascism.

But I've never heard Putin or any Russian media complaining about that.

Do you think Putin doesn’t complain about Italy because Russia doesn’t share a border with Russia? Just putting it out there as a reason.

But hey, what do I know. Can you enlighten me?

 

[Del191229]

You know that there are Russian military units that are the same as the Azov battalion yeah? The Wagner group has Nazi roots for example.

Focusing on just the Ukrainian nazis is not really playing fair.

My taxes aren't funding the Russians.

We're not sending the Russians Bushmasters are we?

And I certainly don't think we should start lol.

Nazis tortured my grandfather, I don't want my taxes going to them.

 

[Del191229]

It’s also worth noting that the USSR were just as bad as the Nazis in terms of their treatment of people. Actually I think Stalin has a bigger body count.

The USSR gave the Ukrainians electricity and industry mate.

 

[Val Keating]

The USSR gave the Ukrainians electricity and industry mate.

They also starved them into cannibalism.

 

[Del191229]

Unless you're regurgitating FSB talking points like a useful idiot.

Dear Lord, magical stuff.

Putin is using de-Nazification as a cover for the real reason for the war.

Russia cannot tolerate a NATO aligned state the size of Ukraine on it borders. Especially not one as openly anti Russian as post Maidan Ukraine.

Just as the US could not tolerate Soviet missiles in Ciba in 1962.

Indeed, while you're having a massive pull of your pud over evil big countries bullying their neighbours, the ongoing relentless US hostility to nearby Cuba would be interesting to discuss.

 

[Val Keating]

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Are those numbers swayed after Hitler turned on Stalin and attacked Russia?

Yes to your question, but that had more to do with mass mobilisation and conscription in 1941.

*I did originally post some numbers, but double checking now, they are Ukrainian estimates, which are not 100% reliable.

 

[Chadwiko]

Especially not one as openly anti Russian as post Maidan Ukraine.

 

[Chadwiko]

I know Elon plugged him, but you should ignore that twitter account. He's a crypto scammer who until two days ago had no idea who Shoigu or Prigozhin are, etc.

Symptomatic of new Twitter's shitness.

 

[Chadwiko]

Indeed, while you're having a massive pull of your pud over evil big countries bullying their neighbours, the ongoing relentless US hostility to nearby Cuba would be interesting to discuss.

Sure. I've studied Cuban international relations and have been to Cuba myself. What would you like to know?

 

[DesertRoo]

 

[Chadwiko]

What a coincidence; another guy being propped up by American conservatives who is saying he'd do exactly what Putin wants America to do.

These crazy coincidences just keep happening!

 

[ferball]

we did give Carey the best player award and he's no saint. Not as bad as Cable but he did some horrible s**t.

That's right.

For a long time football was a free pass.

 

[DesertRoo]

What a coincidence; another guy being propped up by American conservatives who is saying he'd do exactly what Putin wants America to do.

These crazy coincidences just keep happening!

Lol crazy neo-con logic

 

[travelli]

The 'Ukrainian Nazi problem' is such a BS justification/rationale for this invasion.

Italy was literally an Axis power, united as an ally with the Nazi regime.
Italy also just elected a far-right government and is dealing with a massive outbreak of fascism.

But I've never heard Putin or any Russian media complaining about that.

What even are Nazi's in 2023 and why would it be a reason to go to war? Defending the ethnic minority Russians living in Ukraine?

 

[ferball]

See I don't disagree with you about the list Euromaiden put out and that they should of had another think about putting him on that list. What I do disagree with is saying that becasue they put a controversial figure on it makes them supporters of Nazi.

Bandera is a Nazi. If you support him you're supporting a nazi. In the same way that supporting Cable now is supporting a sexual predator or rock spider.

You can't trust a thing that Putin says and my view is that NATO was just a cover for his real intentions and that was to rebuild a Russian empire.

All of that may be true (or may not be, I dunno.) We can't control that, but assuming the worst on his part, as part of the West we can control our approval of the shenanigans that gave him that opportunity to enact his evil designs.

As Mav pointed out we have given Carey an award despite glassing a person and attacking a cop so not necessarily beyond the club.

Carey came from a shithouse upbringing and actually made something of himself as a young man, that's why he lead our footy team to premierships. if he's prepared to acknowledge his problems and mistakes and try to be a better person then he deserves our respect for that. Same with Cable if he's prepared to acknowledge what he did wrong and try to pay for it and make ammends. Bandera died an unrepentant genocidal racist.

 

[ferball]

Mate, the same people who insist there's a line of enforcer troops behind each wave of Russian infantry to make sure nobody retreats also wants us to believe that a battlefield insurrection is going to unpunished.

Yeah, I can't imagine Prigozhin not copping a bullet in the future.

Even if his complaints are valid from the pov of someone in his position (ie that Shoigu ****ed up massively and lied about all sorts of stuff that jeopardised the success of their war.)