Play Nice The NM Devils Chessboard thread.

[ferball]

That is true but it’s starting to come across as whataboutisim a lot online. People were and are outraged over what Israel has done to Palestine. Hopefully with people power (sorry cringe term) being at its highest point in history due to the internet, things will start to change as people realise that their voices actually matter when they protest in the streets. I have zero doubt that the main reason this is being so wildly condemned by officials is because of the citizens hitting the streets.

This happened a decade ago and it took less than a year for those things to be compromised by major powers.

BTW There are people protesting in the street in Canada at the moment and people who post on this thread support the Canadian governments attempts to freeze their access to their own bank accounts. For protests. WE might not agree with them but its a protest. I've heard people say the same thing about protests I've been involved with too.

Protests are great somewhere else.

When they happen at home its just ratbags and foreign interference.

 

[Val Keating]

What makes you think the Russian people see the world the way we do?

Its not even about control of information. Why would they think the way we do about politics, geo politics and even this invasion?

They’re literally lying to their people about what’s happening in Ukraine and why they’re attacking them. Their government controls the media in a way similar to China. It’s not about what I think, it’s actually happening, they’re doing it. It’s not even up for debate.

As for your question what makes me think Russian people see the world the way we do, I don’t know, but I do know that the Kremlin is in control of all the information so it must alter their world view.

Did you see how people have been trying to tell Russians about what’s going? One way was by leaving 5star reviews on restaurants and cafes with descriptions about what’s happening.

 

[the big lebowski]

What makes you think the Russian people see the world the way we do?

Its not even about control of information. Why would they think the way we do about politics, geo politics and even this invasion?

If that were the case why would the words “invasion”, “war” etc be banned from Russian tv?

Why would putin block twitter, Facebook etc? Or any actual factual information about the “special military operation”?

If the Russian people are different from us, why are facts banned from being heard by the Russian people?

 

[Val Keating]

This happened a decade ago and it took less than a year for those things to be compromised by major powers.

BTW There are people protesting in the street in Canada at the moment and people who post on this thread support the Canadian governments attempts to freeze their access to their own bank accounts. For protests. WE might not agree with them but its a protest. I've heard people say the same thing about protests I've been involved with too.

Protests are great somewhere else.

When they happen at home its just ratbags and foreign interference.

What happened in Canada by freezing bank accounts is ****ed up. It’s not war though. It’s not about a country invading another country. The latest strikes from Russia would be classified as war crimes, which not only Putin will be held accountable for but also the trigger men.

You can’t compare it to the truckies striking. I think we’re about to see this war really step up a notch with a full scale invasion. Putin would be embarrassed by taking Ukraine too lightly and would be putting extreme pressure on his generals to crush the Ukrainian army. It’s going to get ugly.

 

[Eggs11]

Russia sending in a huge force for what looks like it’s going to be an ugly siege now. They’re going to starve Ukraine out old school style. The question is what cost it’ll come to Russia.

While Russia starves out Ukraine. The world will be starving out Russia. It will be the starved starving the starved.

What a sad state of affairs.

 

[B4Bear]

If that were the case why would the words “invasion”, “war” etc be banned from Russian tv?

Why would putin block twitter, Facebook etc? Or any actual factual information about the “special military operation”?

If the Russian people are different from us, why are facts banned from being heard by the Russian people?

It is interesting to note that people on here were up in arms of the 'propaganda' of the soldiers on Snake Island, but ignore the propaganda of the Russians to their own citizens.

Almost like there is a double standard.

 

[Val Keating]

While Russia starves out Ukraine. The world will be starving out Russia. It will be the starved starving the starved.

What a sad state of affairs.

It doesn’t even stop there. The sanctions imposed on Russia are already pushing inflation up in places like the US. It’s bad enough that Biden will probably have to address it in his state of the union speech today.

 

[ferball]

What happened in Canada by freezing bank accounts is f’ed up. It’s not war though. It’s not about a country invading another country. The latest strikes from Russia would be classified as war crimes, which not only Putin will be held accountable for but also the trigger men.

You can’t compare it to the truckies striking. I think we’re about to see this war really step up a notch with a full scale invasion. Putin would be embarrassed by taking Ukraine too lightly and would be putting extreme pressure on his generals to crush the Ukrainian army. It’s going to get ugly.

I'm not comparing it to the truckies striking.

I'm just making the point that street protests don't achieve much till they involve most of the population (which is what happened here in the early 2010s). Then powerful nations co opt their protests in whatever way they can.

Putin would have told his generals to go easy on the Ukrainians. Russian armies have levelled cities since the cold war. They have no qualms about wiping people out. Despite what everyone says Putin doesn't want to blow the **** out of Ukraine. he wants to be as peaceful as he can about this invasion. He doesn't want to be stuck occupying a country full of people that hate him. He saw what happened after Afghanistan under the USSR and it and Iraq with us.

Dunno if that's gonna work out for him tho.

And if those latest strikes are classified as war crimes what about (ism) .... (insert war crime here)

Australia should be dealing with our own war criminals first before we go running around the world telling other people what to do. Invading Iraq was a crime against humanity yet John Howard is running around scott free.

 

[ferball]

If that were the case why would the words “invasion”, “war” etc be banned from Russian tv?

Why would putin block twitter, Facebook etc? Or any actual factual information about the “special military operation”?

If the Russian people are different from us, why are facts banned from being heard by the Russian people?

How do you know facts are being banned?

Europe just banned all Russian media outlets.

What's the difference?

 

[Mav]

Putin would have told his generals to go easy on the Ukrainians. Russian armies have levelled cities since the cold war. They have no qualms about wiping people out. Despite what everyone says Putin doesn't want to blow the fu** out of Ukraine. he wants to be as peaceful as he can about this invasion. He doesn't want to be stuck occupying a country full of people that hate him. He saw what happened after Afghanistan under the USSR and it and Iraq with us.

wow, seems there's a direct line of communication between Northern NSW and The Kremlin.

 

[ferball]

Slavs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Because they are all Slavic people. Russia has historically been the defenders of Slavic identity and nationalism.

Whilst the rulers may look on it differently through their power prism, the average Russian is very likely to see this as an attack against their brothers and sisters.

Or that their unique cultural identity is being compromised by global capitalism.

Neither of us have any idea what everyday Russians think about this but the Russian leaderships' worries are legitimate from their pov. Go on google earth and flip it around so you are looking at Europe from Russia. Look at the size of what they have to defend if they "lose" Ukraine.

The Russian leadership doesn't believe we are at peace with anyone, they believe Western corporations/governments (cos they are the same thing now) will try to steal "their" resources as the world runs out of energy.

Without Ukraine their defendable front is more than twice as wide and basically impossible to hold. haven't you ever heard the saying "know your enemy"?

 

[B4Bear]

How do you know facts are being banned?

Europe just banned all Russian media outlets.

What's the difference?

So a hostile state media (Russia) is lying to its population. The opponents of Russia (EU) are not allowing those lies to be broadcast to their own (EU) population.

Disinformation is used as a non-kinetic line of attack against opponents. So why would a government allow it to happen? Your bullshit ideas have zero basis in the real world.

You live in some quasi-fantasy world where you draw a false equivalence to everything to support your point of view.

 

[ferball]

wow, seems there's a direct line of communication between Northern NSW and The Kremlin.

Wouldn't you do that? Look at what happened in Iraq when we didn't do that.

Fallujah is a classic example. You couldn't be aware of that situation and then not instruct your army to be as careful of civilians as possible if you wanted to avoid a bigger mess.

 

[B4Bear]

Or that their unique cultural identity is being compromised by global capitalism.

Neither of us have any idea what everyday Russians think about this but the Russian leaderships' worries are legitimate from their pov. Go on google earth and flip it around so you are looking at Europe from Russia. Look at the size of what they have to defend if they "lose" Ukraine.

The Russian leadership doesn't believe we are at peace with anyone, they believe Western corporations/governments (cos they are the same thing now) will try to steal "their" resources as the world runs out of energy.

Without Ukraine their defendable front is more than twice as wide and basically impossible to hold. haven't you ever heard the saying "know your enemy"?

The enemy has nukes. No one from Europe is invading them. No one is stealing their resources.

In fact Shell And BP have removed themselves from Russia at great cost to themselves.

Reading you is a copy of Tass and Pravda rolled into one. Conspiracy 101 is all you have given, with not one shred of evidence.

I provided you with evidence for your query and you deflect to the evils of global capitalism, how predictable.

 

[B4Bear]

Wouldn't you do that? Look at what happened in Iraq when we didn't do that.

Fallujah is a classic example. You couldn't be aware of that situation and then not instruct your army to be as careful of civilians as possible if you wanted to avoid a bigger mess.

Ukraine: what we know on day seven of Russia’s invasion

Authorities in Kherson deny Russian claims forces have captured first city of invasion, Russian paratroops have landed in Kharkiv, and Joe Biden attacks Putin in his State of the Union address

www.theguardian.com

Real careful of civilians.

But hey, all to oppose global capitalists who want to steal their energy. Which is all you have left after the Drug addicted Neo-Nazi, want to join Nato, committing genocide narratives were shown up to be the lies they are.

 

[ferball]

So a hostile state media (Russia) is lying to its population. The opponents of Russia (EU) are not allowing those lies to be broadcast to their own (EU) population.

Disinformation is used as a non-kinetic line of attack against opponents. So why would a government allow it to happen? Your bullshit ideas have zero basis in the real world.

You live in some quasi-fantasy world where you draw a false equivalence to everything to support your point of view.

I just read three RT articles and none had any lies or disinfo.

Most were about as bland a reportery as is possible.

No lies as far as I could see.

 

[Val Keating]

I'm not comparing it to the truckies striking.

I'm just making the point that street protests don't achieve much till they involve most of the population (which is what happened here in the early 2010s). Then powerful nations co opt their protests in whatever way they can.

Putin would have told his generals to go easy on the Ukrainians. Russian armies have levelled cities since the cold war. They have no qualms about wiping people out. Despite what everyone says Putin doesn't want to blow the fu** out of Ukraine. he wants to be as peaceful as he can about this invasion. He doesn't want to be stuck occupying a country full of people that hate him. He saw what happened after Afghanistan under the USSR and it and Iraq with us.

Dunno if that's gonna work out for him tho.

And if those latest strikes are classified as war crimes what about (ism) .... (insert war crime here)

Australia should be dealing with our own war criminals first before we go running around the world telling other people what to do. Invading Iraq was a crime against humanity yet John Howard is running around scott free.

Man you’re drinking the cool aid. If I were to give him any sway at all, it’d be that power has gone to his head and he’s become so delusional that Ukrainians wanted Russia to invade them and start uniting the soviets.

Whatever the case may be they underestimated the Ukrainians willingness to fight them…which is delusional in itself considering they kicked out the pro Russian president in ‘14.

I read a report today and I was going to share it but then I thought otherwise because of the disinformation out there, but anyway, here it is, US officials speaking to Congress estimate that it’ll take 4-6 weeks for Russia to take Kyiv and best case is they occupy Ukraine for 10 years and worst case 20….personally I don’t think they can afford that with all the sanctions, and it’ll hurt a lot of Europe because they’re so dependent on Russia for gas and oil etc..

Russian forces close in on Ukraine's capital as death toll mounts

As Ukraine's 2nd largest city was hammered by Russian artillery, President Volodymyr Zelensky vowed that his country wouldn't be pressured into concessions.

www.cbsnews.com

The story is at the bottom so I’ll just paste it,

More on how long Ukraine may withstand Russian assault​

A U.S. official tells CBS News that a tactical seizure of Ukraine is possible within the next 4-6 weeks, based on the assessments of what is currently taking place on the ground with the Russian military.
As David Martin has reported, it is expected to take one week before Kyiv is surrounded, and another 30 days could elapse before Ukraine's capital is seized. This U.S. official says it is not clear whether Russia would gradually strangle the city or engage in street-to-street fighting. These scenarios were laid out for members of Congress Monday as the initial battle to destroy the Ukrainian military and government. It is also not clear whether Russia would then decide to go west toward Lviv or as far west as the Polish border.
The situation is dynamic, so this remains an estimate on what is militarily possible. This U.S. official also could not say when the sanctions that have been rolled out so far will have a practical impact on the Russian military. The low morale and shortages of food and fuel are not a result of the sanctions now in place. At some point, however, the Russian military will be impacted by the sanctions.
Given the durability of the Ukrainian resistance and its long history of pushing Russia back, the U.S. and Western powers do not believe that this will be a short war. The U.K. foreign secretary estimated it would be a 10-year war. Lawmakers at the Capitol were told Monday it is likely to last 10, 15 or 20 years — and that ultimately, Russia will lose.

 

[Mav]

Wouldn't you do that? Look at what happened in Iraq when we didn't do that.

Fallujah is a classic example. You couldn't be aware of that situation and then not instruct your army to be as careful of civilians as possible if you wanted to avoid a bigger mess.

I wouldn't invade Ukraine in the first place, so I have no idea what he is thinking. Oh, and there's also the fact he's a ****ing mad man.

 

[B4Bear]

At least some people are getting plenty of time to start preparing their excuses. I bet one of them will be that it is right next door to Nato.

 

[Tectonic]

Got some extended family over there, in the west of the country fortunately.

All doing ok, working to get displaced people and supplies to and from where they need to be.



The abstract discussion on here is a difficult one for me to parse. I understand for many here it is a thing that's happening elsewhere, to other people. But I hope you can all agree it shouldn't be happening to anyone. The people didn't ask to be saved and certainly not with the help of rockets. I don't think the sins of other governments are relevant here at all

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Commander of territorial defense group North reports that Belarusian troops crossed the border in Chernihiv region Chernihiv - Ukraine Interactive map - Ukraine Latest news on live map - liveuamap.com

Commander of territorial defense group North reports that Belarusian troops crossed the border in Chernihiv region. Live Universal Awareness Map Liveuamap is a leading independent global news and information site dedicated to factual reporting of a variety of important topics including...

liveuamap.com

 

[ferball]

The enemy has nukes. No one from Europe is invading them. No one is stealing their resources.

In fact Shell And BP have removed themselves from Russia at great cost to themselves.

Reading you is a copy of Tass and Pravda rolled into one. Conspiracy 101 is all you have given, with not one shred of evidence.

I provided you with evidence for your query and you deflect to the evils of global capitalism, how predictable.

**** you are thick sometimes.

Who cares that you think no one from Europe is invading them? What do the people in the establishment in Russia think might happen in the next two decades given the last three? Especially as the oil and gas runs out and they are sitting on shitloads of it. Their nukes aren't much use to keep them safe if all their C&C networks are down before they notice. Its too late then so everything gets nuked and everyone loses in a nuclear war.

You really think post cold war history makes the western world look like anything other than a bunch of thieving warmongers who talk alot of shit about freedom to cover the fact that they are coming for your stuff? WE won't even help vaccinate the poorest people on earth during this pandemic unless the patent owners get their cut.


You provided an academic paper. That's got nothing to do with what ordinary Russians think about what is happening. If you gave an academic paper about western cultural identity to a mine worker they'd tell you to use your woke rubbish as toilet paper.

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

100% agree. But it can not and should not be used to minimise what is actually happening in the real world, which some people are trying to do.

I'm not sure I agree that people are trying to minimise the situation, or at least I haven't seen it. I think there is some understandable frustration that conflicts that they care about receive nowhere near the same attention as the Ukrainian situation. When commentators and officials explicitly say that this conflict is special because of the physical features of the casualties, or their middle class nature it jars. They find it hurtful.

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

I don’t think racism plays a major role. It’s more about who the government Is allied to and Israel is part of the west or whatever term they use, and they’re very strong politically. It is harder to get people motivated by something they’ve grown up their whole lives seeing on the news, it’s a bit like the commercials about the starving children in Africa on tv when I was a kid, in a way it desensitised more then anything.

That’s kind of what I think is going on here, it’s new to a lot of people so it’s shocking. The blond hair blue eye statement is pretty gross but I guess he just meant he relates with them because it’s easier to imagine it being his family members.

I think things are shifting a bit. It started after George Floyd was murdered and people hit the streets and we’re seeing it agin now. I just hope the trend continues and doesn’t discriminate.

I said something similar to Ferball about it not being entirely racism. This is a huge event, and as I mentioned there would likely be a similar reaction if China invaded Laos.

In the end it's probably not especially useful or relevant to label it as racism, wherever the truth may lie. As seen in this thread, it just gets a lot of people's backs up. It is more an issue of Eurocentrism, where events in the global north are seen as having greater importance and centrality to world affairs.

I hope you are right about things shifting. It would be great that if as this event passes from the news cycle, as it inevitably will, we could start to shine the light more evenly across the globe.

 

[the big lebowski]

How do you know facts are being banned?

Europe just banned all Russian media outlets.

What's the difference?

Mate if you don’t think the following:

1: it’s an invasion

2: the Ukrainians aren’t being “liberated”

3: Russia isn’t taking extreme casualties

All of the above are facts

Being withheld from the Russian people

If you don’t agree, you’re not worth my time for further discussion