Play Nice The NM Devils Chessboard thread.

[ferball]

Maybe Santa will bring me a rocket car that goes to the Moon as well.

This is quite interesting and lays out the most plausible outcome/future for the conflict.

The is a link in that thread to this one which even has Malcolm Fraser warning about this in 2014 anmd Keating in 1997.

Its a list of major western IR and FP experts all saying we should leave Ukraine alone instead of ****ing with it the way we have and it goes back years. Includes Kissenger, Mearsceimer who we posted on this thread ages ago and a whole bunch of others like George Kennan who had a huge role in cold war policy in the US.

I forgot to post it, here it is:

 

[ferball]

This guy is great

I hope he is wrong about that assessment tho.

 

[Del191229]

Anyone who thinks China isn't baws deep in the outcome of this is delusional.

 

[Del191229]

The is a link in that thread to this one which even has Malcolm Fraser warning about this in 2014 anmd Keating in 1997.

Its a list of major western IR and FP experts all saying we should leave Ukraine alone instead of ******* with it the way we have and it goes back years. Includes Kissenger, Mearsceimer who we posted on this thread ages ago and a whole bunch of others like George Kennan who had a huge role in cold war policy in the US.

Exactly. They've been saying it for decades.

But apparently Putin is just a crazy thug who decided last November that because Russia doesn't have a W team, he would wage war on Ukraine to rebuild the USSR for lolz.

 

[Del191229]

LOL

 

[B4Bear]

Are you not capable of understanding that in a globalised world you can't just look at one thing in isolation and pretend that's all that matters.

My points demonstrate that China already is the world's pre-eminent financial power.

As in the link I provided, you need to understand that China is happy to bankroll Russia to survive its being sanctioned out of the Western system, because that means China gets to create an entirely separate financial system.

What happens when China says OK we're not paying Australia for iron ore via the Western financial system any more.

Australia has to make a choice then don't we?

THIS is what's important.

And I am asserting that China is a paper tiger in the financial world. A navy it can not afford to support, a fast rail network that literally loses billions per year, a power system that loses billions per year, reliance on natural resources to provide its income.

China is not as grand as you are making out.

 

[Val Keating]

Putin isn't trying to put the USSR back together.

He's trying to keep a client buffer state between him and NATO.

Why not have both meme

 

[B4Bear]

We are never going to agree. You two have justified the murder of hundreds so far, and likely thousands.

It is immoral and evil what is occurring, regardless of your justification.

How many deaths need to occur before you denounce Putin?

 

[Val Keating]

Folks need to work from basic principles.

If Putin was some crude power crazed madman, he never ever would have passed the first stage of KGB assesments.

He's a ruthless hyper intelligent calculating prick.

He's won several wars - Chechnya, Georgia, Crime and Syria - all of which Western branes assured us would be quagmires that ended his rule.

He's acting entirely rationally here.

And it is ugly and brutal, but anyone pretending Vladimir Putin has introduced brutal and ugly power politics to that part of the world, well, hmmmmmm.

That was a long time ago and as the old saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[Del191229]

And I am asserting that China is a paper tiger in the financial world. A navy it can not afford to support, a fast rail network that literally loses billions per year, a power system that loses billions per year, reliance on natural resources to provide its income.

China is not as grand as you are making out.

The US doesn't have a fast rail system, a navy that would be on the bottom of the sea within hours of a proper war and a power system that's bankrupt and blacks out whole states in winter.

The US has been printing money to keep itself afloat for over a decade.

Compared to that, China is rock solid and the pre-eminent financial power on the globe.

 

[Del191229]

That was a long time ago and as the old saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

People's basic psychological make up doesn't change over time.

That's why orgs like KGB do these assessments, because they know they will have these people for decades.

I don't understand why folks find it so hard to accept that Putin is super smart, super ruthless, super effective leader who has the runs on the board.

Its like saying Dusty is shit because he plays for Richmond not us.

 

[Swallow_Wood]

Anyone who thinks China isn't baws deep in the outcome of this is delusional.

So if the intent is for Russia and China to start pushing for a new bi-polar global set up, then this must have been the goal for quite some time. Accordingly:

• In 2000's Russia gets the message, no room for you in NATO. You are more useful as the West's bogey man.
• China continues to rise, using its financial clout to align many smaller African nations to its agenda and increases its footprint in SE Asia waters.
• US and its allies shoot itself in the foot by bogging itself down in the Middle East, creating the conditions for hell on earth and a mass refugee crisis into Europe.
• Russia foments far right agendas in Europe via online platforms in response to growing integration with the eastern European nations and refugee influx from the Middle East, leading to a fracturing of relations within the EU and questions around its viability.
• Russia foments far right agendas in the US via online platforms due to the growing inequities in a dying empire, leading to the election of Donald Trump and the continued degradation of its governmental institutions.
• Russia actively supports Russian nationalism in regions within its sphere of influence leading ultimately to the current invasion of Ukraine which will provide it with two west flank buffer states with the EU and NATO.
• China and Russia work together to bring into its sphere of influence smaller nations in the Middle East, Asia and Africa to create an alternative geopolitical military and economic power base to rival US, Europe and the rest of the 'West'.

Interesting question here is what happens with India. They are quiet on the Russian front but are actively negatory on China.

 

[the big lebowski]

And I am asserting that China is a paper tiger in the financial world. A navy it can not afford to support, a fast rail network that literally loses billions per year, a power system that loses billions per year, reliance on natural resources to provide its income.

China is not as grand as you are making out.

Agreed.

The Russian military machine was supposed to be something to fear and they can’t even subdue their neighbour who basically has no offensive capability.

They built a wall of financial protection that was dismantled in 2 days.

China might have people power but it doesn’t have the wealth that people fear. As for the military, it might look strong on paper but against the west........ who have been perfecting war for a century, I know who I’d be backing.

 

[Del191229]

Agreed.

The Russian military machine was supposed to be something to fear and they can’t even subdue their neighbour who basically has no offensive capability.

What?

They have crushed Ukraine within a week.

It took the Americans two weeks to get to Baghdad ffs.

 

[Del191229]

China might have people power but it doesn’t have the wealth that people fear. As for the military, it might look strong on paper but against the west........ who have been perfecting war for a century, I know who I’d be backing.

Perfecting it so well they got run out of Afghanistan in a panicked retreat by a bunch of smack dealers in sandals.

 

[the big lebowski]

What?

They have crushed Ukraine within a week.

It took the Americans two weeks to get to Baghdad ffs.

“Crushed Ukraine within a week”

Reality, they haven’t taken a major city

They have overwhelming military asset advantage

They border the country. Their force was amassed, unchallenged for months.

They control about 10% of the country with weapons and fighters pouring in along hundreds of miles of borders without even a Russian military presence.

You seem de coupled from reality and conditioned to see things so that reaffirm your warped perception of how of things really are.

 

[the big lebowski]

Perfecting it so well they got run out of Afghanistan in a panicked retreat by a bunch of smack dealers in sandals.

They withdrew from Afghanistan.

The American people wanted them out as clearly there was no point in being there

Is your arguement that they left because they were forced out militarily?

Bizzare

 

[the big lebowski]

Perfecting it so well they got run out of Afghanistan in a panicked retreat by a bunch of smack dealers in sandals.

2,400 US millitart killed in Afghanistan in 20 years

5,000 Russians killed in Ukraine in a week

Tripper

 

[Del191229]

View attachment 1337357

“Crushed Ukraine within a week”

Reality, they haven’t taken a major city

They have overwhelming military asset advantage

They border the country. Their force was amassed, unchallenged for months.

They control about 10% of the country with weapons and fighters pouring in along hundreds of miles of borders without even a Russian military presence.

You seem de coupled from reality and conditioned to see things so that reaffirm your warped perception of how of things really are.

You do know Kyiv is being hit by a massive explosions as we speak? That their best forces in the east and being encircled.

They have no air force left, their much vaunted Turkish drones are all gone.

The Russians have parked a convoy dozens of kilomtres long outside Kyiv for days and all the Ukranians can do is post videos of it.

They've lost and the only question now is how much of their country they want destroyed and whether they do the we've lost and we're going to negotiate surrender or we've lost and we're going to fight an insurgency and destroy even more of the country in the process.

 

[Del191229]

They withdrew from Afghanistan.

The American people wanted them out as clearly there was no point in being there

Is your arguement that they left because they were forced out militarily?

Bizzare

Are, are ... are you saying the US won in Afghanistan and withdrew in good order?

 

[Del191229]

2,400 US millitart killed in Afghanistan in 20 years

5,000 Russians killed in Ukraine in a week

Tripper

69,000 actullay, if we're just making up numbers.

 

[the big lebowski]

You do know Kyiv is being hit by a massive explosions as we speak? That their best forces in the east and being encircled.

They have no air force left, their much vaunted Turkish drones are all gone.

The Russians have parked a convoy dozens of kilomtres long outside Kyiv for days and all the Ukranians can do is post videos of it.

They've lost and the only question now is how much of their country they want destroyed and whether they do the we've lost and we're going to negotiate surrender or we've lost and we're going to fight an insurgency and destroy even more of the country in the process.

Yes I’m aware that despite massive technological advantage Russia is being held back and not taken a major city.

They’ve been exposed.

I’m sorry for your disappointment at this

 

[the big lebowski]

Are, are ... are you saying the US won in Afghanistan and withdrew in good order?

The USA held Afghanistan for 20 years and lost half the troops Russia has in a week.

I’m sorry for your disappointment at these facts

 

[Del191229]

Yes I’m aware that despite massive technological advantage Russia is being held back and not taken a major city.

They’ve been exposed.

I’m sorry for your disappointment at this

I see that you are a simpleton.

 

[Del191229]

The USA held Afghanistan for 20 years and lost half the troops Russia has in a week.

I’m sorry for your disappointment at these facts

And then they surrendered to the Taliban in Doha you imbecile.

Because they had lost the war.