Play Nice The NM Devils Chessboard thread.

[ferball]

So in summary, this is not about Ukrainian "Nazis". Can we please move on. Please.

No the Ukrainian army has official units that are ****en Nazis and are also part of a worldwide network trying to justify racist, nationalist politics centred in Europe and the US. They support the murder of women and children as much as the Russian military and glorify people who willingly murder women and children in their churches.

If those people all get killed by the Russians its a good thing. It makes the world a less evil place.

Obviously this isn't every Ukrainian. Its just a bunch of military units organised by the right wing in Ukraine for decades. You can support the Ukrainian people and make a differention between them and the official units of the Ukrainian military that use Neo Nazi symbology and promote the same ideology if you want. It is possible to do that and its very disappointing that people won't.

A whole bunch of people were horrified at the massacre in Christchurch but now they're happy to support it on the sly. Its disgusting.

So we're not moving on from pointing out the Ukraine military has Neo Nazi units in it. If you don't like uncomfortable facts maybe you should ask your government to freeze my bank account.

The Ukrainian government made it illegal for men between the age of 18 and 60 to leave the country, then to leave their local area during this war. So all their men are expected to die fighting the Russians whether they want to or not. Whether they have cousins conscripted into the Russian military who they don't want to risk having to go to war with or not, whether they are disabled, religiously opposed to war in all circumstances or whatever. that's not really freedom is it. Its not fighting for your freedom when some prick in authpority tells you you have to do it and don't have a choice.

 

[Del191229]

 

[Del191229]

At Demjanjuk trial, Holocaust survivor says Ukrainian guards outnumbered Nazis 10-to-1 at Sobibor camp.​

'Ukrainians guards took part in extermination' | The Jerusalem Post

At Demjanjuk trial, Holocaust survivor says Ukrainian guards outnumbered Nazis 10-to-1 at Sobibor camp.

www.jpost.com

 

[Del191229]

Yes I know Zelensky is Jewish.

The Ukrainians don't get applause for finally NOT being anti-semitic in the 21st Century.

 

[Eggs11]

Interesting that Conti, which was the number one cyber extortion threat in Australia in 2021, had their files and data dumped onto the web just days after saying they would “deliver retaliatory measures” against western threats to Russia.

 

[Eggs11]

Genuine question for ferball and SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay, and this is not me lining up for an argument - I am genuinely trying to understand your perspective:

I understand your distaste for NATO, Azov, Nazis and anything or anyone that enables them. I understand and accept most of your arguments. What I don’t feel I understand yet is what are you hoping to see happen in Ukraine? What outcome would you like to see for Ukraine and how do you see it happening?

Again, this is not a setup - I understand what you don’t like. I haven’t yet got my head around what you do like/ want.

 

[Sopwiths North]

Obviously this isn't every Ukrainian. Its just a bunch of military units organised by the right wing in Ukraine for decades. You can support the Ukrainian people and make a differention between them and the official units of the Ukrainian military that use Neo Nazi symbology and promote the same ideology if you want. It is possible to do that and its very disappointing that people won't.

A whole bunch of people were horrified at the massacre in Christchurch but now they're happy to support it on the sly. Its disgusting.

So we're not moving on from pointing out the Ukraine military has Neo Nazi units in it. If you don't like uncomfortable facts maybe you should ask your government to freeze my bank account.

The Ukrainian government made it illegal for men between the age of 18 and 60 to leave the country, then to leave their local area during this war. So all their men are expected to die fighting the Russians whether they want to or not. Whether they have cousins conscripted into the Russian military who they don't want to risk having to go to war with or not, whether they are disabled, religiously opposed to war in all circumstances or whatever. that's not really freedom is it. Its not fighting for your freedom when some prick in authpority tells you you have to do it and don't have a choice.

re the bolded - this is what I do, and it's what I hope you do too. It's been very hard to tell though, because so much of your posting in this thread reads like an echo chamber of the very propaganda Putin is pushing as a reason for this invasion: the "denazification" of Ukraine. Ukraine is not a Nazi country. Ukrainians are not Nazis.

I'm going to re-post this statement by scholars of Genocide, Nazism, and WWII, because I feel like you probably didn't read it. This thread is going around in frustrating circles because a few posters can't stop fixating on something that has no relevance to what is happening to Ukraine right now. The only way you'd think it did is if you believed Putin's propaganda.

Yes, Ukraine has a battalion - ONE battalion - with right wing extremist ideologies. That does not make all Ukrainians Nazis, it does not justify Putin's invasion of Ukraine, and it certainly doesn't warrant endless pages of detracting and distracting from what's really happening right now - the invasion of a sovereign democratic country.

Statement by Scholars of Genocide, Nazism and World War II​

Since February 24, 2022, the armed forces of the Russian Federation have been engaged in an unprovoked military aggression against Ukraine. The attack is a continuation of Russia’s annexation of the Crimean peninsula in 2014 and its heavy involvement in the armed conflict in the Donbas region.

The Russian attack came in the wake of accusations by the Russian president Vladimir Putin of crimes against humanity and genocide, allegedly committed by the Ukrainian government in the Donbas. Russian propaganda regularly presents the elected leaders of Ukraine as Nazis and fascists oppressing the local ethnic Russian population, which it claims needs to be liberated. President Putin stated that one of the goals of his “special military operation” against Ukraine is the “denazification” of the country.

We are scholars of genocide, the Holocaust, and World War II. We spend our careers studying fascism and Nazism, and commemorating their victims. Many of us are actively engaged in combating contemporary heirs to these evil regimes and those who attempt to deny or cast a veil over their crimes.

We strongly reject the Russian government’s cynical abuse of the term genocide, the memory of World War II and the Holocaust, and the equation of the Ukrainian state with the Nazi regime to justify its unprovoked aggression. This rhetoric is factually wrong, morally repugnant and deeply offensive to the memory of millions of victims of Nazism and those who courageously fought against it, including Russian and Ukrainian soldiers of the Red Army.

We do not idealize the Ukrainian state and society. Like any other country, it has right-wing extremists and violent xenophobic groups. Ukraine also ought to better confront the darker chapters of its painful and complicated history. Yet none of this justifies the Russian aggression and the gross mischaracterization of Ukraine. At this fateful moment we stand united with free, independent and democratic Ukraine and strongly reject the Russian government’s misuse of the history of World War II to justify its own violence.

Statement on the War in Ukraine by Scholars of Genocide, Nazism and World War II

As we write this, the horror of war is unfolding in Ukraine. The last time Kyiv was under heavy artillery fire and saw tanks in its streets was during

jewishjournal.com

 

[the big lebowski]

My Jewish family are in Poland right now doing eveyrjitng they can to help and support Ukraine.

I better tell them that some anti west/democracy geniuses on bigfooty know more than them and the Jewish journal.

Absolutely disgusting some of the crap on this thread. It’s embarrassing.

 

[DesertRoo]

great article..

Western rush to ban everything Russian, from cats to Dostoevsky, smacks of totalitarianism

Russophobic campaign straddles the entire western political spectrum, with the full endorsement of cultural elites

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[Val Keating]

Russiaphobic campaign LOL.

 

[ferball]

Genuine question for ferball and SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay, and this is not me lining up for an argument - I am genuinely trying to understand your perspective:

I understand your distaste for NATO, Azov, Nazis and anything or anyone that enables them. I understand and accept most of your arguments. What I don’t feel I understand yet is what are you hoping to see happen in Ukraine? What outcome would you like to see for Ukraine and how do you see it happening?

Again, this is not a setup - I understand what you don’t like. I haven’t yet got my head around what you do like/ want.

I would love to see the Russians piss off tomorrow.

But as for what will happen. I dunno.

This is a shit situation. The sooner its over with the least dead people the better.

And I think it should never have happened in the first place. It didn't need to be this way.

 

[B4Bear]

I would love to see the Russians piss off tomorrow.

But as for what will happen. I dunno.

This is a sh*t situation. The sooner its over with the least dead people the better.

And I think it should never have happened in the first place. It didn't need to be this way.

On that we can agree.

 

[ferball]

re the bolded - this is what I do, and it's what I hope you do too. It's been very hard to tell though, because so much of your posting in this thread reads like an echo chamber of the very propaganda Putin is pushing as a reason for this invasion: the "denazification" of Ukraine. Ukraine is not a Nazi country. Ukrainians are not Nazis.

I'm going to re-post this statement by scholars of Genocide, Nazism, and WWII, because I feel like you probably didn't read it. This thread is going around in frustrating circles because a few posters can't stop fixating on something that has no relevance to what is happening to Ukraine right now. The only way you'd think it did is if you believed Putin's propaganda.

Yes, Ukraine has a battalion - ONE battalion - with right wing extremist ideologies. That does not make all Ukrainians Nazis, it does not justify Putin's invasion of Ukraine, and it certainly doesn't warrant endless pages of detracting and distracting from what's really happening right now - the invasion of a sovereign democratic country.

Statement by Scholars of Genocide, Nazism and World War II​

Since February 24, 2022, the armed forces of the Russian Federation have been engaged in an unprovoked military aggression against Ukraine. The attack is a continuation of Russia’s annexation of the Crimean peninsula in 2014 and its heavy involvement in the armed conflict in the Donbas region.

The Russian attack came in the wake of accusations by the Russian president Vladimir Putin of crimes against humanity and genocide, allegedly committed by the Ukrainian government in the Donbas. Russian propaganda regularly presents the elected leaders of Ukraine as Nazis and fascists oppressing the local ethnic Russian population, which it claims needs to be liberated. President Putin stated that one of the goals of his “special military operation” against Ukraine is the “denazification” of the country.

We are scholars of genocide, the Holocaust, and World War II. We spend our careers studying fascism and Nazism, and commemorating their victims. Many of us are actively engaged in combating contemporary heirs to these evil regimes and those who attempt to deny or cast a veil over their crimes.

We strongly reject the Russian government’s cynical abuse of the term genocide, the memory of World War II and the Holocaust, and the equation of the Ukrainian state with the Nazi regime to justify its unprovoked aggression. This rhetoric is factually wrong, morally repugnant and deeply offensive to the memory of millions of victims of Nazism and those who courageously fought against it, including Russian and Ukrainian soldiers of the Red Army.

We do not idealize the Ukrainian state and society. Like any other country, it has right-wing extremists and violent xenophobic groups. Ukraine also ought to better confront the darker chapters of its painful and complicated history. Yet none of this justifies the Russian aggression and the gross mischaracterization of Ukraine. At this fateful moment we stand united with free, independent and democratic Ukraine and strongly reject the Russian government’s misuse of the history of World War II to justify its own violence.

Statement on the War in Ukraine by Scholars of Genocide, Nazism and World War II

As we write this, the horror of war is unfolding in Ukraine. The last time Kyiv was under heavy artillery fire and saw tanks in its streets was during

jewishjournal.com

No Ukraine isn't a Nazi country. It just has a bunch of Neo Nazi units that are officially part of its military.

They are different situations.

I've been whinging about Ukrainian Nazis since long before this invasion. So have Jewish organisations like the Simon Wiesenthal Centre.

I haven't called the fight in Donbass a genocide either. That's a laughable claim. There might be an ethinic conflict involved but that's obviously not the same thing.

This war happened because NATO was training the Ukrainian army (including Ukrainian Nazis with their Nazi military units that are officially supported by the Ukrainian government,) to fight within its systems and methods. That didn't have to happen, and now that its provoked a war the US are gonna run away from the confrontation they provoked. (That's good for the world but its also pretty disgusting behaviour overall. Then again we've seen that for all of this century from our major, untrustworthy ally.)

As for the actual genocides, for example the one enabled by Canada selling the Saudis weapons.. they are a disgrace.

They should have been condemned by every decent human on the planet by now.

 

[Val Keating]

I'll take this with a grain of salt like all combat loss claims, but it is quite interesting, given there seems to be a belief afoot in our media that UKR military is suffering no losses.

Yeah I know. Check this out. Can’t be true. A quarter?

 

[Val Keating]

No Ukraine isn't a Nazi country. It just has a bunch of Neo Nazi units that are officially part of its military.

They are different situations.

I've been whinging about Ukrainian Nazis since long before this invasion. So have Jewish organisations like the Simon Wiesenthal Centre.

I haven't called the fight in Donbass a genocide either. That's a laughable claim. There might be an ethinic conflict involved but that's obviously not the same thing.

This war happened because NATO was training the Ukrainian army (including Ukrainian Nazis with their Nazi military units that are officially supported by the Ukrainian government,) to fight within its systems and methods. That didn't have to happen, and now that its provoked a war the US are gonna run away from the confrontation they provoked. (That's good for the world but its also pretty disgusting behaviour overall. Then again we've seen that for all of this century from our major, untrustworthy ally.)

As for the actual genocides, for example the one enabled by Canada selling the Saudis weapons.. they are a disgrace.

They should have been condemned by every decent human on the planet by now.

I was listening to an interesting take on that UAE situation and once I heard it, it was obvious as ****.

Basically the US and others that are supporting the genocide in Yemen is because of oil. Yer der right…we’ll this is where it gets interesting and very shifty.

The US and Canada etc have created this narrative around climate change and the use of fossil fuels and their base is so hardcore about it that it’s a deal breaker if they go back on their word of cutting back pulling oil reserves.

Particularly the US. They have over a hundred years of oil reserves that they could use right now but the Democrats base won’t except it. So instead they go to Saudi Arabia and give say they’ll continue to feed them weapons if they get to buy their oil.

The US using their own oil would be so much cleaner and they would’nt have to support a genocide, but because they’ve built this climate crisis narrative with their base they can’t do it because they only care about the next election.

It’s so two faced that it’s disgusting

 

[Val Keating]

No Ukraine isn't a Nazi country. It just has a bunch of Neo Nazi units that are officially part of its military.

They are different situations.

I've been whinging about Ukrainian Nazis since long before this invasion. So have Jewish organisations like the Simon Wiesenthal Centre.

I haven't called the fight in Donbass a genocide either. That's a laughable claim. There might be an ethinic conflict involved but that's obviously not the same thing.

This war happened because NATO was training the Ukrainian army (including Ukrainian Nazis with their Nazi military units that are officially supported by the Ukrainian government,) to fight within its systems and methods. That didn't have to happen, and now that its provoked a war the US are gonna run away from the confrontation they provoked. (That's good for the world but its also pretty disgusting behaviour overall. Then again we've seen that for all of this century from our major, untrustworthy ally.)

As for the actual genocides, for example the one enabled by Canada selling the Saudis weapons.. they are a disgrace.

They should have been condemned by every decent human on the planet by now.

This war happened because Putin ordered an invasion. His motivation doesn’t matter. Ukraine can train with whoever they like.

 

[Forever North]

Maybe just a ‘coincidence’ but the last 2 years we’ve had the CCP gift the world a pandemic and now the Russians possibly gift us WWIII. Both having economically enslaved the world over the past 30 with their corrupt ways. Both wanting to impose their preferred ‘way of life’ and ideology on us. And to top it all off we have someone that should be playing bingo in a retirement home in charge of the US. The world is simply ****ed.

 

[Del191229]

I thought I had seen ALL the wilfully ahistorical and frankly offensive shit used re Hitler and Putin, but no, here's a new clubhouse leader.

If they posted this in Germany they'd likely be committing a criminal offence.

 

[Del191229]

Yeah I know. Check this out. Can’t be true. A quarter?

"After the 2008 South Ossetia war,[19] Bildt wrote on his blog that the Russian rationale for its intervention, concern for the welfare of its expatriates in the Near Abroad, had similarities with the rationale for the annexation of Sudetenland."

 

[Del191229]

Genuine question for ferball and SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay, and this is not me lining up for an argument - I am genuinely trying to understand your perspective:

I understand your distaste for NATO, Azov, Nazis and anything or anyone that enables them. I understand and accept most of your arguments. What I don’t feel I understand yet is what are you hoping to see happen in Ukraine? What outcome would you like to see for Ukraine and how do you see it happening?

Again, this is not a setup - I understand what you don’t like. I haven’t yet got my head around what you do like/ want.

I hate the hypocrisy.

The rank ****ing hypocrisy that means we are meant to care more about some victims of illegal aggression and brutality (like the Ukrainians), meant to ignore some victims (Palestinians) and meant to actively cheer on exactly the same behaviour when we do it (Iraq, Libya, Syria).

I'd like the same rules applied equally to all.

 

[Val Keating]

"After the 2008 South Ossetia war,[19] Bildt wrote on his blog that the Russian rationale for its intervention, concern for the welfare of its expatriates in the Near Abroad, had similarities with the rationale for the annexation of Sudetenland."

I knew you’d have dirt on him. I only started paying attention in about 2016. Wish I never did tbh. The only people who care are in here. Literally all my friends and family have zero interest.

 

[Del191229]

I knew you’d have dirt on him. I only started paying attention in about 2016. Wish I never did tbh. The only people who care are in here. Literally all my friends and family have zero interest.

That's just from his Wiki.

I thought he was formerly boss of NATO but was wrong, googled to check.

 

[Eggs11]

I hate the hypocrisy.

The rank ******* hypocrisy that means we are meant to care more about some victims of illegal aggression and brutality (like the Ukrainians), meant to ignore some victims (Palestinians) and meant to actively cheer on exactly the same behaviour when we do it (Iraq, Libya, Syria).

I'd like the same rules applied equally to all.

Yes, but what outcome do you want to see in Ukraine?

 

[Del191229]

Yes, but what outcome do you want to see in Ukraine?

I want North's blokes to win the flag. But I know it won't happen.

So in the same vein, I would like to see an immediate ceasefire where Ukraine agrees it will not join NATO on condition Russia withdraws and agrees to respect the outcome of Ukraine's most recent election.

The Russians then should fully withdraw and Zelensky remains the democratically elected President.

Western countries then provide huge immediate aid to rebuild Ukraine on condition Ukraine conducts a full and complete purge of the Nazis in its ranks.

 

[Eggs11]

I want North's blokes to win the flag. But I know it won't happen.

So in the same vein, I would like to see an immediate ceasefire where Ukraine agrees it will not join NATO on condition Russia withdraws and agrees to respect the outcome of Ukraine's most recent election.

The Russians then should fully withdraw and Zelensky remains the democratically elected President.

Western countries then provide huge immediate aid to rebuild Ukraine on condition Ukraine conducts a full and complete purge of the Nazis in its ranks.

…and add a priority pick for North and you’ve got a deal!