The Non-Essendon Thread V

[Kong]

I guess the thing is, though, if Scott really is developing a "plan A cum plan B"- wasn't 2010 and maybe 2011 the time for that? North were inconsistent in 2010 but that was Scott's first year and they had been rubbish in 2009, so ultimately, to finish 11-11 and 9th position was excusable.

Such inconsistency come a coach's third year is just puzzling.

Who does that remind you of?

 

[Kong]

[....]

Yeah fair enough.

If that is the case, and the balance is getting better, I think you guys'll be fine.

 

[Slattery_20]

IMHO putting it down to gameplan or coaching would be (slightly) over-rating where their list's at.
The good sides can switch it up, and play the game that's in front of them, and at least keep in touch.
They're not there, not yet anyway.

 

[Kong]

Oh god no, they're way off, and I worry about them without Petrie.

I'm just speaking about the coaching in general, with the "assume young players improve" clause inserted.

 

[Tas]

Oh god no, they're way off, and I worry about them without Petrie.

I'm just speaking about the coaching in general, with the "assume young players improve" clause inserted.

Yeah, players don't always improve and we have had our fair share of players who showed potential but never showed anything more than that or infrequently showed it.

I do think it is hard to get consistency from a lot of young players though, especially in the engine room. Even when you look at the Essendon side, a few years ago it was horribly inconsistent and a lot was blamed on Knights but he didn't have the cattle to do a whole lot better than he did. You look at the team now and Watson is 27 years old, has played 144 games and is 94 kegs. Stanton is 26, played 170 games and is 84 kilos, Hocking is 24 played 73 games and is 87 kilos. If you were relying more on Melksham who is sub 50, under 21 and under 80kgs and a whole bunch of young players you would probably play more like the Knights era.

Swallow is pretty much the only guy we have that is mature and can play inside and he is only 80kgs, we just get physically dominated in the middle and haven't had the mature level of support. Wells and Harvey are great offensive players, but they aren't the type of players who can play inside and tough it out when things aren't going our way, although Wells has improved out of sight in terms of being more useful on he inside.

We 'hope' that things will improve with age and we have the mature bodies in there, it wont matter what Scott says or does, he doesn't have the extra age, experience or bodies on a lot of the kids he has at his disposal, same issue Knights had, I just hope Scott does a better job of getting them ready for that level, Knights was pretty poor at getting the players physically ready but it can be tough for young kids to bulk up and still play footy at AFL standard.

 

[yaco55]

Think that North has a vulnerable back-line, which is suspectible to one-on-one contests. This is magnified by their high risk movement of the ball. Once a turnover is created this leads to defensive frailties.

 

[Slattery_20]

<snip> Even when you look at the Essendon side, a few years ago it was horribly inconsistent and a lot was blamed on Knights but he didn't have the cattle to do a whole lot better than he did. You look at the team now and Watson is 27 years old, has played 144 games and is 94 kegs. Stanton is 26, played 170 games and is 84 kilos, Hocking is 24 played 73 games and is 87 kilos. If you were relying more on Melksham who is sub 50, under 21 and under 80kgs and a whole bunch of young players you would probably play more like the Knights era.
Swallow is pretty much the only guy we have that is mature and can play inside and he is only 80kgs, we just get physically dominated in the middle and haven't had the mature level of support. Wells and Harvey are great offensive players, but they aren't the type of players who can play inside and tough it out when things aren't going our way, although Wells has improved out of sight in terms of being more useful on he inside.

Dumbing Knights' issues purely down to inexperience or youth is a bit of a leap. Hird didn't magically find a bunch of experienced footballers down the back of the couch. Midfield is probably the place where's been the least changes in personnel - down back & up forward is where they've drastically changed things up.

I don't know if our results would've been much better (in terms of W/L) but certainly the way we go about it under Hird has been a marked change - much tighter, more dogged, more balanced sides.
Under Knights guys like Lonergan, Watson, Hocking, had their weaknesses shown up, under the Hird regime we (somewhat, not all the time) dictate play to our strengths.

The S&C Knighter wanted, tended towards the running (going after Cormack, ex-Weagles) rather than size & contested work. Again Hird/Bomber/BMac made a distinct change of direction. Knights wanted a fast running team; Hird wanted a more dogged contested ball team. (I've no idea what North are going for in that dept.)

We 'hope' that things will improve with age and we have the mature bodies in there, it wont matter what Scott says or does, he doesn't have the extra age, experience or bodies on a lot of the kids he has at his disposal, same issue Knights had, I just hope Scott does a better job of getting them ready for that level, Knights was pretty poor at getting the players physically ready but it can be tough for young kids to bulk up and still play footy at AFL standard.

That "sit tight and hope things improve" mentality is what did Knights.
When the board, fans, and players all wanted to see a definitive move, a marked change, it wasn't forthcoming.


Hird doesn't make the young players grow into seasoned hardened units overnight - he doesn't pick them until they're ready. (He probably doesn't trust they'll win enough in the clinches).
Knights did, & Scott appears to be doing that.

I do think it is hard to get consistency from a lot of young players though, especially in the engine room.

The million dollar question.
Does he want to be developing a midfield (ie take the pressure off results)
Or
Does he want to push for finals.

Definitely been a mixed message there (again, similar to Knights, Hird has never ever made a single mention of finals until we were dead-set locked in; Knights got suckered into predictions a few times)

After three years, with just about the league's shortest injury list, you'd have to say Scott's got the list he wants.

 

[Slattery_20]

For the tl;dr crew, abridged version:
Waiting is for schmucks.
If a coach is relying on guys who he can clearly see aren't up to it, in one way or another - find out how to improve them; and if that doesn't work, get rid & find someone who is (up to it).
Screw this "oh but that's the recruiter's job, that's the fitness guy's job". They all work for the coach.

 

[Tas]

I'm not saying the club's policy is to hope, that is the supporter's policy. Also, it doesn't matter how much you dislike Knights, you have to admit having the mids mature makes a world of difference to inexperienced and skinny kids. Why isn't Melksham a 85-90kg behemoth? He is too young. There is only so much you can fast track young kids.

Your midfield is basically the same as it was under Knights, Hird didn't come with a magic tonic and make these guys good footballers in one pre-season, they showed signs under Knights but were inexperienced and inconsistent. Some guys can turn it on at a very early age, the vast majority do not play good consistent footy until they near their prime.

 

[Slattery_20]

I'm not saying the club's policy is to hope, that is the supporter's policy.

It's a bit hard to see what other plan the club has, though.
There doesn't seem to be any safety net.
If Scott thinks they needed some extra grunt in there, then he's the man to make it happen.
Obviously he doesn't think so, for whatever reason.

Also, it doesn't matter how much you dislike Knights, you have to admit having the mids mature makes a world of difference to inexperienced and skinny kids. Why isn't Melksham a 85-90kg behemoth? He is too young. There is only so much you can fast track young kids.

Your midfield is basically the same as it was under Knights, Hird didn't come with a magic tonic and make these guys good footballers in one pre-season, they showed signs under Knights but were inexperienced and inconsistent. Some guys can turn it on at a very early age, the vast majority do not play good consistent footy until they near their prime.

My post almost word-for-word. Well done. They do say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

[Kong]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/mor...-alex-jesaulenko/story-e6frf9jf-1226408955384

I absolutely love that the morons in the media, and therefore by extension, the general Carlton supporter, are finally aware of what us clever cookies have been saying for years.

Protip: it's only gonna get worse as Judd, Waite, Scotland and Simpson wind down.

You're ****ed.

 

[Lord Nicholson]

WTF was Caro on about last night anyway with Jesaulenko? About him having left the club under less-than-favourable circumstances and always being guarded about them since? Didn't he come back again after they sacked Walls?

Also, let's not overrate Waite. The fact that they put so much stock in him is part of the reason they're in this mess.

 

[Kong]

Also, let's not overrate Waite. The fact that they put so much stock in him is part of the reason they're in this mess.

Absolutely.

But after that it's... Sam Rowe?

 

[Lord Nicholson]

Casboult from the Blue.

 

[Kong]

Don't fret though, Ratts is keen on another midfielder, so..

 

[Burzum]

Judd's been quite average this year. It hurts not having Murphy but he won't solve all of their problems.

 

[daz17]

The guy who trolled Brock McLean is an Essendon supporter.

 

[Lord Nicholson]

The guy who trolled Brock McLean is an Essendon supporter.

Promote that man.

 

[Slattery_20]

I told him "Chin up".

 

[Smokin]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/mor...-alex-jesaulenko/story-e6frf9jf-1226408955384

I absolutely love that the morons in the media, and therefore by extension, the general Carlton supporter, are finally aware of what us clever cookies have been saying for years.

Protip: it's only gonna get worse as Judd, Waite, Scotland and Simpson wind down.

You're ****ed.

100%. In fact, I dont even consider those of us clever as their list mismanagement was so obvious, it can only be explained by head in sand stuff at their end.

What is compounding it now is it seems Judd's decline has been somewhat rapid, or at least earlier than most would have anticipated. His next 12 weeks will be super interesting, as he finished last season poorly and really has had few vintage Judd games in a long time now. If it goes over a season, can hardly call it form but age/body driven decline.

Call me alarmist but I reckon their situation has compounded waites fragility. They force him to play a much more physical game, being the only real target, than he should, and his body simply hasnt responded. In reality, he is probably best suited as a high HFF or even tall wing type, floating forward or back as required assisting the Keys - not being the key. He is 29, and it seems they are still waiting

Teams have also caught onto their front running forwards, who need a nice open forwardline to run into. Take that away and they simply starve.

This is the best part for us - we are only just scratching the surface on what we have been planting the seeds on for a long time. Ryder, TBell, Hurley, Carlisle, Pears (if and when fit), Crameri - a whole bunch of talls maturing physically and mentally whilst our bunch of mids still have years left.

 

[Slattery_20]

A legit CHF would make Garlett/Betts, Walker & Waite look much better.

 

[George Washington]

A legit CHF would make Garlett/Betts, Walker & Waite look much better.

Someone like.. say... Kennedy perhaps?

 

[Call Me Cake]

I don't rate Waite, too old and is only getting worse. Judd has more of a chance of playing on for longer than he does.

Garlett, I don't see the big deal about him. Plenty of small forwards his age have shown more than he has. So inconsistent.

Walker has about as much chance of helping Carlton to a flag as Monfries does for us.

 

[Lord Nicholson]

Walker has about as much chance of helping Carlton to a flag as Monfries does for us.

A fair amount, then.

 

[Call Me Cake]

I like Monfries, and I consider him to be one of our better forwards, in terms of accuracy and taking hangers.

But IMO, he's more of a serviceable player for us. He isn't going to get any better than he is right now. Yes, he has every chance of being an Essendon Premiership player (because of his age), but he isn't going to be one of the cogs to get us there - irregardless of whether we have performing key talls or not.