The off topic thread 4.0

[ADL9798]

So his contract denied him the right to express his religious beliefs openly? That’s rather draconian and pretty dangerous. We should be allowed to have and express our free will of thought, otherwise we are heading to a World that will consist solely of SM type robots, who are totally incapable of existing alongside those who have differing opinions.

If Israel Folau was a Muslim extremist advocating that white Christians should burn in hell, would he also have a right to express those views repeatedly in public?

Would Rugby Australia be expected to continue paying him a salary while he wilfully breaches his contract and damages their brand with impunity, and millions of dollars in sponsorships walk out the door?

It’s funny, I suspect those advocating for greater religious freedoms likely have quite a narrow scope in mind.

Personally, I’m all for the right to freedom of expression, but draw the line where it begins to trample on the rights of others. That line varies from situation to situation, recognising that some groups experience greater disadvantage and discrimination than others, and are more vulnerable to the impact of hate speech.

 

[SM]

Out of interest Clause 8 in GoFundMe's T&C's reads:

8. campaigns we deem, at our sole discretion, to be in support of, or for the legal defence of alleged crimes associated with hate, violence, harassment, bullying, discrimination, terrorism or intolerance of any kind relating to race, ethnicity, national origin, religious affiliation, sexual orientation, sex, gender or gender identity or serious disabilities or diseases;


I know it is at the sole discretion of GoFundMe but for me that covers both egg boy's gofundme and israel folau's campaigns. Either both or neither really should have been taken down IMO.

Was egg boys go fund me for his legal fees? I didn't think he got charged? His go fund me was a donation to NZ.

 

[Loonerty]

We don’t have a disagreement on this in truth. I don’t look to offend in my off-line (and online to a slightly lesser extent) life and actually go out of my way not to. That doesn’t mean I should have the ability to voice my concerns or criticisms when I see fit taken away though.

And they haven't been. Folau can make all the comments he likes - but as I keep coming back to - there are consequences. Both societal and in his case legal.

Believe it or not, before the PC culture really started being implemented societies were not hugely divisive and uncohesive places. People by and large got along and contrary to current belief there wasn’t a continual outpouring of abuse and bullying. Whereas now, my country is more split and divided than it has ever been.

I actually think that while the Internet is probably the greatest invention of all time, it's also the root of these issues. Particularly social media, which gives people on both sides a platform to say whatever they like entirely anonymously if they choose to with no repercussion. Things that wouldn't be acceptable to say to someone in real life are suddenly easy to get away with online. I think that's where the continual outpouring of abuse and bullying stems from. And it's bleeding out of the web and into the real world.

That’s not all down to PC culture but when people feel as though they can’t openly debate on certain subjects then that frustration and bitterness builds up within. Not allowing people a voice does not make that persons opinions disappear, it just suppresses them and often will give those beliefs more credence whilst making them more entrenched. It’s not healthy and it contributes to the fracturing of societies we now see.

There's a difference between open debate and unprovoked comments that cause significant harm to a significant chunk of society.

I think allowing everyone to say what they believe will only stir further support for that cause AND result in backlash against them, potentially violent. If the KKK were able to freely promote themselves and their ideals, do you think a) their cause would grow stronger and b) everyone would just allow them to do it publicly?
What about Muslim extremists? If they were publicly preaching that the Western world needed to be brought to its knees, is that okay? Even though they'd probably gain followers which could lead to violence?

There's a point where free speech is not just free speech.

Having said all that there are limits to free speech, even I accept that. Folau’s comments are close to the line, but they don’t cross it in my opinion. His religious upbringing have given him that outlook, which is something we must tolerate, especially when you consider the leniency we afford the teachings and beliefs of religious minorities

I tolerate the fact that he has that opinion. I don't tolerate that he felt the need to express it publicly, knowing the harm it could cause.
I don't tolerate people expressing that kind of belief whatever religion they are: Christian, Jewish, Muslim, atheist - whatever.

 

[Loonerty]

Was egg boys go fund me for his legal fees? I didn't think he got charged? His go fund me was a donation to NZ.

He didn't get charged, but the fundraiser did say that it was for his legal fees. And more eggs.

 

[Zidane98]

Was egg boys go fund me for his legal fees? I didn't think he got charged? His go fund me was a donation to NZ.

From the GoFundMe page:


Money raised will go to EggBoi for:

- Legal fees
- More eggs



So yes, it should have been taken down.

 

[SM]

From the GoFundMe page:


Money raised will go to EggBoi for:

- Legal fees
- More eggs



So yes, it should have been taken down.

Fair enough then. Perhaps the fact no legal charges were pressed meant it was OK.

Just like if Folau had claimed the money would be used for traveling to the moon but had then shown intent to use them on legal fees perhaps that's more the issue?

I'm just guessing though.

 

[Zidane98]

Fair enough then. Perhaps the fact no legal charges were pressed meant it was OK.

Just like if Folau had claimed the money would be used for traveling to the moon but had then shown intent to use them on legal fees perhaps that's more the issue?

I'm just guessing though.

Solicitors still cost money to employ so you don't have charges pressed against you. GoFundMe also retains discretion over these matters so they could have stop both campaigns or let both go on if they really wanted to.

 

[SM]

Solicitors still cost money to employ so you don't have charges pressed against you. GoFundMe also retains discretion over these matters so they could have stop both campaigns or let both go on if they really wanted to.

I'm merely suggesting there might not have been sufficient connection between the money raised and the boy's legal fees - whether his parents had already covered them or whatever - and his suggestion all money would be donated. But again, merely guessing.

 

[WealstoneRaider]

If Israel Folau was a Muslim extremist advocating that white Christians should burn in hell, would he also have a right to express those views repeatedly in public?

Would Rugby Australia be expected to continue paying him a salary while he wilfully breaches his contract and damages their brand with impunity, and millions of dollars in sponsorships walk out the door?

It’s funny, I suspect those advocating for greater religious freedoms likely have quite a narrow scope in mind.

Personally, I’m all for the right to freedom of expression, but draw the line where it begins to trample on the rights of others. That line varies from situation to situation, recognising that some groups experience greater disadvantage and discrimination than others, and are more vulnerable to the impact of hate speech.

Yes he would have a right to express that. He’d be very foolish to though seeing as he would be in a largely Christian country along with the current climate Islam is in at this time with the west. I wouldn’t advocate the Police get involved, but the terrorism branch would no doubt start keeping tabs. Falou’s comments can’t be misconstrued as advocating jihad against gays though, unlike if a Muslim cleric said something similar about Christians. Faloue is saying, born out of ignorance really, that if you choose to be gay then you will suffer in the afterlife. I don’t think for one moment he was saying rise up and slaughter the gays.

 

[Zoom]

Having a look at their terms and conditions, it does seem that violence is covered in that agreement, so yes I suppose it should have been pulled as well.

I had a look and saw a headline saying that the Folau one had been flagged for review, which perhaps the Egg Boy one hadn't, but I couldn't read the article as it was paywalled.

Is that David Lynn? Just had a quick look.

Yeah, that should be taken down as well. I don't know whether it not meeting the funding target has anything to do with it though.

I started scanning through their terms of service but it was massive so gave up pretty quickly. Glad you’re across some of it.

And yeah that’s David Lynn. I don’t know why it was allowed but it seems very similar to the Folau case.

All I’m saying is that I think GoFundMe shot themselves in the foot by pulling down Folau’s page. It opens up a can of worms. I will also reiterate that I didn’t approve of it in the first place, I actually thought it was ridiculous considering his wealth and the fact that he brought that situation upon himself.

 

[Zidane98]

I'm merely suggesting there might not have been sufficient connection between the money raised and the boy's legal fees - whether his parents had already covered them or whatever - and his suggestion all money would be donated. But again, merely guessing.

I guess in that sense would Folau's GoFundMe campaign be ok if he donated it all to charity? I don't think so personally because that's not how it started out and not how "egg boi's" campaign started out either although it ended up that way perhaps due to negative publicity about receiving donations for assaulting someone.

 

[Cruyff14]

The nerve on him to even do it to begin with is beyond farcical.

 

[Loonerty]

I guess in that sense would Folau's GoFundMe campaign be ok if he donated it all to charity? I don't think so personally because that's not how it started out and not how "egg boi's" campaign started out either although it ended up that way perhaps due to negative publicity about receiving donations for assaulting someone.

I think the fact that Folau made his own fundraiser means they are two quite different kettles of fish.

 

[ADL9798]

Yes he would have a right to express that. He’d be very foolish to though seeing as he would be in a largely Christian country along with the current climate Islam is in at this time with the west. I wouldn’t advocate the Police get involved, but the terrorism branch would no doubt start keeping tabs. Falou’s comments can’t be misconstrued as advocating jihad against gays though, unlike if a Muslim cleric said something similar about Christians. Faloue is saying, born out of ignorance really, that if you choose to be gay then you will suffer in the afterlife. I don’t think for one moment he was saying rise up and slaughter the gays.

I didn’t make any assumptions about his intent, I just swapped Folau’s faith for Islam, and swapped gays for white Christians, everything else about his statement in this hypothetical would be exactly the same “X group will burn in hell”.

Why would one potentially be classed terrorism and the other just ignorance?

 

[SM]

I guess in that sense would Folau's GoFundMe campaign be ok if he donated it all to charity? I don't think so personally because that's not how it started out and not how "egg boi's" campaign started out either although it ended up that way perhaps due to negative publicity about receiving donations for assaulting someone.

I come back to my initial point that Egg Boy didn't start his own fundraiser. He had no control over the creation, Folau did.

 

[Zoom]

I think the fact that Folau made his own fundraiser means they are two quite different kettles of fish.

As if GoFundMe would allow someone to set up donations on Folau’s behalf though...

 

[Loonerty]

As if GoFundMe would allow someone to set up donations on Folau’s behalf though...

Why not? It might've ended up the same way but I don't see why it couldn't happen.

 

[WealstoneRaider]

I didn’t make any assumptions about his intent, I just swapped Folau’s faith for Islam, and swapped gays for white Christians, everything else about his statement in this hypothetical would be exactly the same “X group will burn in hell”.

Why would one potentially be classed terrorism and the other just ignorance?

Why do you think? This is the problem, applying blanket approaches to things creates many of the problems in society we now see. That’s a direct outcome of having to be PC. Take London for example, stop and search was deemed racist, and police reigned in on stopping young black males they thought suspicious. The outcome, an explosion in knife and gang crime. And who does that affect the hardest? Young black men who are now killing each other in record numbers.

 

[Zoom]

Why not? It might've ended up the same way but I don't see why it couldn't happen.

Did you read GoFundMe’s statement when they took down Folau’s page, more specifically the part about being committed to the fight for equality?

Would be shocked if they allowed it after making such a stance against his original page.

 

[Loonerty]

Did you read GoFundMe’s statement when they took down Folau’s page, more specifically the part about being committed to the fight for equality?

Would be shocked if they allowed it after making such a stance against his original page.

Oh I thought you meant from the start if someone made it for him.

Well yeah, if one got made now it'd receive the same treatment no doubt.

 

[Zoom]

Oh I thought you meant from the start if someone made it for him.

Well yeah, if one got made now it'd receive the same treatment no doubt.

I still think from the start it would’ve been taken down. Their terms of service state that if anything is contributing towards hate or discrimination to someone based on something like their sexuality then that is a reason to terminate their page. I can’t see how a page like that survives, especially when you consider the media coverage and public outrage Folau copped.

 

[Loonerty]

I still think from the start it would’ve been taken down. Their terms of service state that if anything is contributing towards hate or discrimination to someone based on something like their sexuality then that is a reason to terminate their page. I can’t see how a page like that survives, especially when you consider the media coverage and public outrage Folau copped.

Oh agreed.

I think some wires have been crossed somewhere here haha.

 

[Cruyff14]

Haha

Collingwood great Dane Swan launches GoFundMe page to pay for Las Vegas bender

Go Fund My Las Vegas bender: Swannie’s very cheeky fundraiser

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[RPCB]

Haha, what a legend! It seems he’s been reading this very topic

“As Australians we are born with the right to freedom of expression. I believe it is my duty as a servant of the sesh to set the standard on the circuit through instragam and snapchat,” Swan said in a video released on Friday.

 

[ADL9798]

Why do you think? This is the problem, applying blanket approaches to things creates many of the problems in society we now see. That’s a direct outcome of having to be PC. Take London for example, stop and search was deemed racist, and police reigned in on stopping young black males they thought suspicious. The outcome, an explosion in knife and gang crime. And who does that affect the hardest? Young black men who are now killing each other in record numbers.

I agree with you that there are pockets where political correctness has gone too far, but this isn’t one of them. You mention violent crime in London, have you looked into the history of discrimination and violent crime against the gay community?

I really don’t see the 2 scenarios I’ve proposed to be too dissimilar. Either both are inciting terrorism, or neither are.

When influential people like Israel Folau exercise freedom of speech for this purpose, it creates an environment where some of their more impressionable or extreme followers will feel empowered to act out against those groups. Some groups are particularly vulnerable to this, the gay community being one of them.

Conversely - if we look at inner city, upper-middle class, straight, white men - people like me - not so much. Israel can say what he likes about me, in this country it’s extremely unlikely it’s going impact on my life in any meaningful way. “Sticks and stones” as you said.

This is what I mean when I say for me, there are boundaries to freedom of expression which are situation and group dependent. There needs to be some consideration of the end product of those words, which in this instance is very much based in reality and not ‘political correctness gone mad’.