The off topic thread 6.0

[SM]

Because Karen's always make mountains out of molehills.

If you're going to overthrow democracy, especially America, you will need a lot of weapons and a huge amount of military to do so.

The question is why would a major party want them removed?

We know that the Democrats whined like absolute sooks and attacked Jill Stein because they squarely pointed the finger at her for being a reason why Trump got elected.

Why would anyone hold that position?

Ah yes, making a mountain out of the 'storming the capitol' molehill. Those pesky Karens..

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Trump cultists (voters) stormed the capitol unable to accept an election result. He's now a convicted felon.

No amount of 'look here' at what the democrats have done will come close to that. Trump support is an indefensible position, which is a sad indictment on America that 10s of millions will vote for the indefensible.

 

[Bostonian]

Wild that you're turning storming Capitol Hill into a leisurely protest in the park...

The 96 Parliamentary Riot here in Australia involved more people and plenty of violence.

Remember that?

Seems plenty of correlations with that riot.

Yet despite that riot here, in 2024 we still had one of our major Political parties in bed with the Unionists who stormed our Parliament that day.

Some of the people who are chicken littling over the Capitol riot vote for that party too.

 

[Bostonian]

Trump cultists (voters) stormed the capitol unable to accept an election result. He's now a convicted felon.

No amount of 'look here' at what the democrats have done will come close to that. Trump support is an indefensible position, which is a sad indictment on America that 10s of millions will vote for the indefensible.

Read a history book.

It's clear you never have.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Read a history book.

It's clear you never have.

Can you debate anything without throwing out insults, in this case erroneous?

I have book case which is slowly filling up with WWII books, that's history you know. And my grandfather held a history class at the local Tafe for about 40 years. Fair to say I've read through a few books on his shelf too.

Note: I have responded without insult while refuting your feeble jibes

 

[Bostonian]

Can you debate anything without throwing out insults, in this case erroneous?

I have book case which is slowly filling up with WWII books, that's history you know. And my grandfather held a history class at the local Tafe for about 40 years. Fair to say I've read through a few books on his shelf too.

Note: I have responded without insult while refuting your feeble jibes

Well if you had read a history book on US voting then you'd know this incident pales against some of the atrocities that occured in its history when it comes to voting.

You made the statement "No amount of 'look here' at what the democrats have done will come close to that."

So if you had read a history book then you'd not have made your statement.

 

[DBAH0]

We know that the Democrats whined like absolute sooks and attacked Jill Stein because they squarely pointed the finger at her for being a reason why Trump got elected.

Why would anyone hold that position?

Didn't George HW Bush do the same thing at Ross Perot for costing him the election in 1992?

 

[Bostonian]

Didn't George HW Bush do the same thing at Ross Perot for costing him the election in 1992?

I've never seen a quote of his attributed to that. If you have one happy to see it.

I know at the time the general vibe was Perot could have cost Bush the election.
But that was something many people of different persuasions said.

As far as I know the Republicans haven't ever taken the Libertarians to court to have them struck from the ballot.

They don't have a funded committee set up like the Democrats do in 2024 to go afternoon third parties either.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

I've never seen a quote of his attributed to that. If you have one happy to see it.

I know at the time the general vibe was Perot could have cost Bush the election.
But that was something many people of different persuasions said.

As far as I know the Republicans haven't ever taken the Libertarians to court to have them struck from the ballot.

They don't have a funded committee set up like the Democrats do in 2024 to go afternoon third parties either.

Republicans have been more underhanded with their "support" of Greens over the years..even without Greens' knowledge!! Multi millionaire Republican backers supporting them ...when they stand wide apart of environmental issued..collecting signatures for Green Party ballot access. All for the good of the Greens no doubt!

How Republicans Are Trying to Use the Green Party to Their Advantage (Published 2020)

The G.O.P. has sought to help Green Party candidates in previous election cycles to siphon votes from Democrats. This year is no different — but it hasn’t always worked.

www.nytimes.com

How Republicans Are Trying to Use the Green Party to Their Advantage​

The G.O.P. has sought to help Green Party candidates in previous election cycles to siphon votes from Democrats. This year is no different — but it hasn’t always worked.


Howie Hawkins, the Green Party presidential candidate, in 2018. Republicans have worked to get him on the ballot in battleground states.Credit...Nathaniel Brooks for The New York Times

By Maggie HabermanDanny Hakim and Nick Corasaniti
Sept. 22, 2020
Four years ago, the Green Party candidate played a significant role in several crucial battleground states, drawing a vote total in three of them — Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania — that exceeded the margin between Donald J. Trump and Hillary Clinton.
This year, the Republican Party has been trying to use the Green Party to its advantage again, if not always successfully.
In Wisconsin, a G.O.P. elections commissioner and lawyers with ties to Republicans tried to aid attempts by Howie Hawkins, the current Green Party presidential candidate, to get on the ballot there, which were ultimately unsuccessful. In Montana, state regulators found that the Republican Party violated campaign finance laws as part of an effort to boost the Greens in five down-ballot races, including for senator and governor.
And in Western Pennsylvania, petitioners from Florida and California were brought in to gather signatures for Mr. Hawkins by an outside firm whose actions Mr. Hawkins and the party said they could not account for. Mr. Hawkins also did not make the ballot there.

With Mr. Trump trailing Joseph R. Biden Jr. in most national and swing-state polls, Republicans are again trying to help third parties that may appeal to Democratic voters and siphon off votes from Mr. Biden. This is taking place alongside a broader pattern of disinformation and skepticism by the president and his allies that has sown confusion and undermined confidence in the election.
Supporters of the president have also been trying to advance the candidacy of Kanye West, the billionaire hip-hop artist, confident that he can cut into Mr. Biden’s vote total. Democrats have portrayed the effort as a “dirty trick” and exploitative of Mr. West, who has bipolar disorder.
Republican efforts to aid the Green Party are not new. In 2016, a billionaire backer of President Trump, Bernie Marcus, the co-founder of Home Depot, provided support to Jill Stein, the Green candidate, according to people with knowledge of the strategy, who said the effort was done with the knowledge of some officials at the Trump campaign and its chairman at the time, Paul Manafort. (Mr. Manafort was subsequently convicted of eight counts in an unrelated financial fraud trial.)
It was not clear if Mr. Marcus’s support, which has not been previously reported, included bolstering the party’s effort to get on the ballot or funding a social media campaign, or if it went toward some other purpose.

​

Mr. Marcus did not respond to a question relayed to him through his wife, Billi Marcus.
She and Mr. Marcus donated more than $7 million to groups supporting Mr. Trump in 2016. His stalwart backing of Mr. Trump has previously led to calls to boycott Home Depot; Mr. Marcus retired more than a decade ago.
Image

Bernie Marcus, the co-founder of Home Depot and supporter of President Trump, provided funding to help support the Green Party presidential candidate in 2016.Credit...Richard Drew/Associated Press
Three Republican operatives said that Steve Hantler, Mr. Marcus’s top political adviser, had portrayed himself as involved in efforts to bolster the Green Party in 2016. Mr. Hantler declined multiple requests seeking comment. The people who spoke of Mr. Marcus’s and Mr. Hantler’s involvement insisted on anonymity in order to disclose private conversations.

Politics Across the United States​

• Chinese Doping Case: The F.B.I. and Justice Department have opened a criminal investigation into how antidoping authorities allowed elite Chinese swimmers who had tested positive for a banned substance to escape punishment and win a slew of medals at the last Olympics.
• Ballot Measures: Americans routinely express deep concern about the state of the country’s democracy. This fall, voters from eight states will be able to vote on ballot measures that aim to do something about it.
• A Christian Agenda: Gov. Jeff Landry of Louisiana wants his state to be at the forefront of a national push to advance laws with a Christian worldview.
• Bridging the Partisan Gulf: America’s poisonous divisions have been much lamented. Less noticed is the counterweight, a constellation of nonprofits trying to promote common ground.

There was no indication that Ms. Stein or her campaign knew about Mr. Marcus’s involvement.
Ms. Stein, in a statement, said: “I’ve never heard of Bernie Marcus or this alleged effort. Why is the NYT trying to make this into a scandal and not the fact that superrich elites from the same corporate interests give hundreds of millions every election to buy off both establishment parties?”
The Trump campaign declined to comment on whether officials were aware of Mr. Marcus’s and Mr. Hantler’s efforts in 2016, but said that it was unaware of current support being given to the Green Party.
As of this week, Mr. Hawkins was on the ballot in only 28 states, qualifying in Florida, Colorado and Michigan, but not in other states where polls show relatively narrow margins, including Wisconsin, New Hampshire and Georgia.

That’s a far cry from 2016, when Ms. Stein qualified in 44 states and drew almost 1.4 million votes overall. Some Democrats blamed her bid for depriving Mrs. Clinton of critical votes that year, while also condemning Russian efforts to boost Ms. Stein’s candidacy.
Mr. Hawkins, a longtime party activist, acknowledged that Republicans had likely tried to help him but dismissed the efforts as irrelevant.
“I’m aware that some of that’s been done, Republicans collecting signatures for Green Party ballot access,” he said in an interview. “I heard about it after the fact. Voters should look at the candidates. These operatives play their games. Myself, I didn’t know they were doing this.”
The efforts on Mr. Hawkins’s behalf span several states. In the Pittsburgh area this summer, numerous signature collectors were brought in from Florida and California to get Mr. Hawkins on the ballot, nominating papers filed in Pennsylvania show. Mr. Hawkins’s campaign manager, Andrea Mérida Cuéllar, said, “We did not contract with any firm directly for petitioning work” in the state, and when told that it appeared that an outside group brought the petitioners in, she did not offer another explanation.
Documents reviewed by The Times, and interviews with people involved in gathering signatures, indicate that the petitioners were brought in by L&R Political Consultants, a Florida-based company run by Larry Laws, who is well known in the ballot petitioning business, two people with knowledge of the effort said. Mr. Laws did not return calls and texts seeking comment.

One of the people said that a Republican consultant named Tim Mooney was also part of the effort. The Dallas Morning News reported in 2010 that Mr. Mooney had worked to get the Green Party access to the ballot in Texas. He and Mr. Laws have a history of working together, and were both reportedly involved in a 2004 effort to get Ralph Nader on the ballot as an independent candidate. Mr. Mooney has been linked more recently to state ballot measures supported by the president.
In a text message, Mr. Mooney denied any involvement.
“Not working for the Greens,” he wrote. “Haven’t collected any candidate signatures for any party this cycle.”
In Wisconsin, a number of Republican lawyers have been aiding attempts by Mr. Hawkins to get on the ballot, and a Republican member of the state elections commission informally advised the Green Party after the commission deadlocked along party lines on the question. Mr. Hawkins’s bid was rejected last week by the Wisconsin Supreme Court.
Image

Jill Stein, the 2016 Green Party presidential candidate, had a vote total that exceeded the margin between the two major party candidates in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania.Credit...Kim Raff for The New York Times
Republicans have also been active on the Greens’ behalf in Montana this year, where they bankrolled a signature-gathering effort to get Green Party candidates on the ballot. In a statement, Spenser Merwin, the executive director of the State Republican Party, said “the Montana Republican Party openly supported efforts to create additional options at the ballot box.”

But state regulators found that the party “failed to accurately report” its funding, and violated state campaign finance law. The Supreme Court recently rejected an effort to keep the candidates on the ballot.
There would seem to be little in common between the Green Party, with its mission to protect the environment, and the G.O.P., with its goals of eliminating environmental regulations. But distrust between the Green Party and Democrats goes back to Mr. Nader, and the role he may or may not have played in tilting the 2000 election in favor of George W. Bush. Mr. Nader won more than 97,000 votes in Florida in a race where less than 600 votes delivered the state to Mr. Bush.
Sometimes Republican aid is done without the Green Party’s knowledge, but sometimes it is overt. Carl Romanelli, the Green Party Senate candidate in Pennsylvania, acknowledged receiving financial support from Republicans to help him get on the ballot in 2006.
In 2010, Mr. Mooney helped organize a successful petition drive to get the Green Party on the ballot in the Texas race for governor, working with a Missouri-based nonprofit called Take Initiative America. Texas Democrats sued, and court documents revealed Take Initiative America received $532,500 in anonymous donations that they refused to reveal at the time. In the same election, Mike Toomey, a former chief of staff to Rick Perry, the Republican governor at the time, was also linked to an effort to help fund a Green Party ballot petition drive, though it never fully materialized.
This year, while the Green Party is already on the ballot at the presidential level in Texas, multiple congressional candidates failed to pay the required filing fees, and Democrats sued to have them removed. After the conservative-leaning Texas Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Green Party, the State Democratic Party accused the court of taking “actions to benefit their own political party.”

Sometimes the Green Party itself is not only unaware of Republican efforts but has tried to restrain them. In 2009, the party filed a lawsuit in Florida to determine who had arranged for five unknown candidates to appear on the Green Party line.
Ronald G. Meyer, a Florida elections lawyer who handled the case for the party, said they found “that a Republican operative recruited a bunch of college-student-aged people, some waitresses and college kids, and paid their qualifying fees.”
Asked about ballot chicanery, Mr. Hawkins said, “These people plays these games, and they are just hacks for the two parties.”
He tried to distinguish his party, and its years of history and organizing, from Mr. West’s candidacy.
“I tweeted at some point that Kanye West is a Republican dirty trick,” he said. “If Roger Stone didn’t do it, he wished he did,” he added, referring to the longtime political adviser to Mr. Trump, and self-proclaimed master of dirty political tricks. Mr. Stone was convicted of seven felonies in 2019, but his sentence was commuted by the president earlier this year.

Mr. Hawkins has referred to his candidacy as “a second front against Trump,” but said, “I’m not going to shame people for settling for Biden if they’re really concerned about Trump, but I’m not advocating that vote.”

 

[Bostonian]

Republicans have been more underhanded with their "support" of Greens over the years..even without Greens' knowledge!! Multi millionaire Republican backers supporting them ...when they stand wide apart of environmental issued..collecting signatures for Green Party ballot access. All for the good of the Greens no doubt!

How Republicans Are Trying to Use the Green Party to Their Advantage (Published 2020)

The G.O.P. has sought to help Green Party candidates in previous election cycles to siphon votes from Democrats. This year is no different — but it hasn’t always worked.

www.nytimes.com

Wouldn't this have a positive impact on democracy though?

Making their parties more prominent and accessible seems a good thing.

Seems like it could backfire on whoever is stumping up the cash though.

The Greens and Libertarians have helped each other out over the years due to the anti-third party rhetoric and actions that goes on around election times.

"The Green Party’s recent problems gaining access to North Carolina’s election ballot raise concerns from another political group that has had to work to win a ballot spot.

Brian Irving, executive director of the North Carolina Libertarian Party, told Carolina Journal that the eight times his party turned in petitions for certification, they never saw the level of scrutiny by the State Board of Elections that the Green Party received in its recent failed certification effort."

Read that and it's obvious dodgy shit is going on.

https://www.gp.org/nc_libertarians_concerned

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Wouldn't this have a positive impact on democracy though?

Making their parties more prominent and accessible seems a good thing.

Seems like it could backfire on whoever is stumping up the cash though.

The Greens and Libertarians have helped each other out over the years due to the anti-third party rhetoric and actions that goes on around election times.

"The Green Party’s recent problems gaining access to North Carolina’s election ballot raise concerns from another political group that has had to work to win a ballot spot.

Brian Irving, executive director of the North Carolina Libertarian Party, told Carolina Journal that the eight times his party turned in petitions for certification, they never saw the level of scrutiny by the State Board of Elections that the Green Party received in its recent failed certification effort."

Read that and it's obvious dodgy shit is going on.

https://www.gp.org/nc_libertarians_concerned

All dirty tricks .. and violating laws in doing so..

Official finds Montana GOP violated campaign finance laws

HELENA, Mont. (AP) — The Montana Republican Party and two minor party qualification committees violated state campaign finance laws in a successful effort to qualify the Green Party of Montana for the primary ballot without the Green Party's knowledge, the commissioner of political practices said Fr

apnews.com

Kennedy and West third-party ballot drives are pushed by secretive groups and Republican donors

Groups are trying to whittle away President Joe Biden’s support with left-leaning, third-party alternatives who could siphon off protest votes in swing states.

www.nbcchicago.com

Going further back there was a fake Greens candidate who had Republican ties!

 

[Bostonian]

All dirty tricks .. and violating laws in doing so..

Official finds Montana GOP violated campaign finance laws

HELENA, Mont. (AP) — The Montana Republican Party and two minor party qualification committees violated state campaign finance laws in a successful effort to qualify the Green Party of Montana for the primary ballot without the Green Party's knowledge, the commissioner of political practices said Fr

apnews.com

That's different to donating to actual Greens candidates.

As such it should be dealt with harshly.

Kennedy and West third-party ballot drives are pushed by secretive groups and Republican donors

Groups are trying to whittle away President Joe Biden’s support with left-leaning, third-party alternatives who could siphon off protest votes in swing states.

www.nbcchicago.com

Going further back there was a fake Greens candidate who had Republican ties!

I mean if they want to waste their money on other parties then that's their loss.

Are you not noticing the language used though?

Having Kennedy on a ballot would cause "chaos".

Well no it wouldn't, it would just give people some one else to vote for.

They are basically saying there's only room for two parties.

I'm all for third party candidates getting higher profiles.

That the major parties seem scared of competition it can only mean it's a good thing.

 

[glenferry23]

Ah yes, making a mountain out of the 'storming the capitol' molehill. Those pesky Karens..

‘Twas no molehill, of course that’s different. It was a revolution! Storm the capitol baby, patriots! Murica **** yeah

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

That's different to donating to actual Greens candidates.

As such it should be dealt with harshly.




I mean if they want to waste their money on other parties then that's their loss.

Are you not noticing the language used though?

Having Kennedy on a ballot would cause "chaos".

Well no it wouldn't, it would just give people some one else to vote for.

They are basically saying there's only room for two parties.

I'm all for third party candidates getting higher profiles.

That the major parties seem scared of competition it can only mean it's a good thing.

First past the post voting is the problem ..favours the larger parties ...smaller parties have no hope...it will always favour the major two parties..plus it distorts results where party winning most votes getting fewer seats than second placed and losing election. At least here in australia and many other countries minor parties have a chance of having a say in minority govts.

Crucially a small party draws votes away from the larger party it's most similar to and gives a big advantage to the other as in the case of Grrens in US. Nader and Gore in 2000. I don't see how that's fair. Smaller party has no chance yet punshes party it's more similar to. Crazy!

 

[Frank Bunn]

First past the post voting is the problem ..favours the larger parties ...smaller parties have no hope...it will always favour the major two parties..plus it distorts results where party winning most votes getting fewer seats than second placed and losing election. At least here in australia and many other countries minor parties have a chance of having a say in minority govts.

Crucially a small party draws votes away from the larger party it's most similar to and gives a big advantage to the other as in the case of Grrens in US. Nader and Gore in 2000. I don't see how that's fair. Smaller party has no chance yet punshes party it's more similar to. Crazy!

In the recent UK election -

Labour got 411 seats for their 33.8% of the vote
Lib Dems got 71 seats for their 12.2%.
Reform only got 4 seats for their 14.3%.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Not sure what would be more baffling. Bosto getting a day off defending Trump or getting so worked up defending Trump as to snap over something else.

 

[Cruyff14]

Things I didn't expect to read today: Downplaying storming The Capitol.

Yet here we are.

 

[RPCB]

TIL today: Storming the capitol building is not that shitty because other more shittier things happened in history.

 

[moomba]

So no substance to the claim that Biden dropped out due to deteriorating health conditions? Biden's health didn't decline significantly between the primaries when he was elected by a landslide - to when he was forced to drop out by the Democrat elites.

Harris as VP was an appointment. The Harris part of Biden Harris ticket was an appointment. Harris as Democrat candidate for president is an appointment.

My suspicion is that Biden was never going to drop out until it became (was made) clear to him that he wasn't going to win.

Until the debate, Democrats were fairly confident they would win under Biden.

 

[moomba]

So the Democrats and their media stooges saying Trump is a threat to democracy isn't shit flinging but pointing out their hypocrisy is? OK.

Again, I'm not sure if youve watched any US TV, or are just parroting what you think you should be saying. But there is a world of difference between the extent and level of vitriol of the attacks on Harris compared to the attacks on Trump. The main discussion on Trump is how sexist and racist his supporters are being, how they're refusing to discuss the issues because they're focusing on attacking Harris, and Project 2025.

The cost of living ranks as the most important issue for US voters. Housing costs, childcare, food prices all increased dramatically under the Biden/Harris administration. Gasoline went from $1.50 a gallon to as high as $4.
View attachment 2062249

No idea if thus is true or not but if it is surely it backs up my point. Debate the issues that are relevant to the voter. Harris has weaknesses which at the moment are being ignored by people shouting DEI hire, DEI hire.

Immigration also is one of the main voter concerns. In April 2020, there were around 16,000 encounters on the US-Mexico border. Since then, the monthly number of migrant encounters at the U.S.-Mexico border has surpassed 200,000 on 10 separate occasions. That's over 2 million every year. And that's just the people the authorities know about, The true figure would be higher. This wasn't an accident due to Kamala's incompetence. On his first day as president, Joe Biden sent Congress an immigration bill that included a pathway to citizenship for an estimated 11 million undocumented immigrants.

View attachment 2062257

Again. No idea if true or not but debate issues that matter to the voter.

 

[DBAH0]

Sainz to Williams

 

[Frank Bunn]

Again, I'm not sure if youve watched any US TV, or are just parroting what you think you should be saying. But there is a world of difference between the extent and level of vitriol of the attacks on Harris compared to the attacks on Trump. The main discussion on Trump is how sexist and racist his supporters are being, how they're refusing to discuss the issues because they're focusing on attacking Harris, and Project 2025.

The media is calling a dirty election. Aren't they all? The Democrats will call Trump a convicted felon who will end democracy. The Republicans will call Kamala a DEI hire as VP who made mess of her job of managing the southern border.

As I said, the main issues that concern US voters are costs of living and immigration. I'm not a US citizen so I can't vote but their foreign policy has global implications that affect us all.

 

[SM]

The media is calling a dirty election. Aren't they all? The Democrats will call Trump a convicted felon who will end democracy. The Republicans will call Kamala a DEI hire as VP who made mess of her job of managing the southern border.

As I said, the main issues that concern US voters are costs of living and immigration. I'm not a US citizen so I can't vote but their foreign policy has global implications that affect us all.

One of these is not like the other..

If that's the biggest criticism of Kamala then the Republicans are in a bit of trouble.

 

[Zidane98]

Can we Make The Off Topic Thread Great Again with less US election talk?

 

[bok_party]

Can we Make The Off Topic Thread Great Again with less US election talk?

Nah keep it going. Going to have no point in the thread if you keep banning topics.