The off topic thread

[Pykie]

I don't agree with what she said but I can understand the basis of her reasoning.

People dismissing it as pure bigotry and racism are way off the mark.

We are going through one of the most unstable periods in international security for upwards of 30 years.

After that amount of sustained peace, there is obviously going to be fear, despite what a lot of you are saying, the average person in this country are currently scared by world events and even domestic security. I can't think of a time where Australians have ever been scared of domestic security other than the prospect of a Japanese invasion in WWII.

It's not a black and white discussion and fairly unprecedented.

 

[SM]

I don't know this woman but I suspect there may be racism at hand. Playing on people's fears etc. But on the other hand I would be wary about closing down this sort of debate. Do you want a situation like what is happening in Europe? You want to keep safe - your children to be safe and your society to be as one (which can include immigrants obviously).

Different times we are living in now

My first comment on this debate was actually that she raised a good point RE Japan and the number of Muslims relative to the number of terrorist attacks. People will plug their fingers in their ears over such discussion but it's a valid point.

 

[SM]

.
Happy to be wrong but didn't she say she wanted to keep Muslims out, rather than keep Arabs out? It's a distinction with a difference. She may well think they're one and the same but unless she said she wanted to keep Arabs out, she hasn't spoken out about a race, rather a religion.

Take the Jews for instance. If someone hates the Jews, that doesn't make them racist. Religions aren't a race.

But anyway, as I said, it's nitpicking.

How do you keep Muslims out mate? Do you get them to fill in a questionnaire at the airport? Of course she means Arabs. You're either being deliberately argumentative or are incredibly naive.

The Jews can be considered a race so that's a terrible comparison.

 

[jd2010]

I don't agree with what she said but I can understand the basis of her reasoning.

People dismissing it as pure bigotry and racism are way off the mark.

We are going through one of the most unstable periods in international security for upwards of 30 years.

After that amount of sustained peace, there is obviously going to be fear, despite what a lot of you are saying, the average person in this country are currently scared by world events and even domestic security. I can't think of a time where Australians have ever been scared of domestic security other than the prospect of a Japanese invasion in WWII.

It's not a black and white discussion and fairly unprecedented.

We are also living in a time with the worst gang related crime & domestic violence cases. Ignoring those and stamping up & down about something else just comes across as a chance to get the inner xenophobia out there

 

[Jatz]

She wants muslim migrants not allowed in.

Muslim migrants come from certain countries. Therefore she's picking on a religion. Dont think there's going to be a way to implement what she is after cutting out just a race. Eg Iranian guy wants to move to Australia and commit a terrorist attack. Simple way around her genius idea, tick the christian box and get in and then preach hate or kill people. Or simply don't allow any Iranian in regardless of religion and there's no way around for any potential terrorist, any potential muslim who isn't a terrorist & also any non-muslim Iranian, that is racism isnt it?

Muslim migrants come from certain countries? Bloody hell mate. Muslims come from just about every country. You're now profiling Muslims as specifically middle eastern. Are the extremists in Europe worse than the extremists in the middle east? Why do you assume she just meant middle eastern muslims? Did she say that?

 

[Jatz]

How do you keep Muslims out mate? Do you get them to fill in a questionnaire at the airport? Of course she means Arabs. You're either being deliberately argumentative or are incredibly naive.

The Jews can be considered a race so that's a terrible comparison.

We don't is my answer. Don't know what she suggested. She probably does mean arabs but unlike most, I don't presume to know what she means by jumping to the most obvious solution.

How do you define a race? Perhaps we have differing opinions of that.

 

[Jatz]

Bloody fire drills in our office

 

[SM]

We don't is my answer. Don't know what she suggested. She probably does mean arabs but unlike most, I don't presume to know what she means by jumping to the most obvious solution.

How do you define a race? Perhaps we have differing opinions of that.

Lol you're really in the mood for an argument aren't you. She was being racist and you're being an apologist.

A race is a group of people with ethnic characteristics, a defined homeland, a shared language, and is something that is genetically identifiable.

For the large majority of Jewish people this is an accurate description.

 

[Zidane98]

Lol you're really in the mood for an argument aren't you. She was being racist and you're being an apologist.

A race is a group of people with ethnic characteristics, a defined homeland, a shared language, and is something that is genetically identifiable.

For the large majority of Jewish people this is an accurate description.

Jewish is more of a religion than a race. There is Jewish people living all over the world speaking many different languages. It may surprise you but there are 9000 Jews living in Iran. There's nothing genetically identifiable of Jewish people from other Caucasian people either.

In reality there is 4 races - Caucasian, black, asian & arabic. Jewish is not a defined race.

 

[Jatz]

Lol you're really in the mood for an argument aren't you. She was being racist and you're being an apologist.

A race is a group of people with ethnic characteristics, a defined homeland, a shared language, and is something that is genetically identifiable.

For the large majority of Jewish people this is an accurate description.

No I'm not. I already said I completely disagree with her, I'm just not jumping straight to conclusions. I'll leave that for you.

Ok, so we disagree on races. That's fine, that's where our difference of opinion comes from.

Just because we disagree and are discussing our opinions, doesn't automatically make it an argument. I actually enjoy conversing with you on a range of topics as you're obviously quite intelligent.

 

[SM]

Jewish is more of a religion than a race. There is Jewish people living all over the world speaking many different languages. It may surprise you but there are 9000 Jews living in Iran. There's nothing genetically identifiable of Jewish people from other Caucasian people either.

In reality there is 4 races - Caucasian, black, asian & arabic. Jewish is not a defined race.

Ok. Not really the argument I wanted to get into.

 

[SM]

No I'm not. I already said I completely disagree with her, I'm just not jumping straight to conclusions. I'll leave that for you.

Ok, so we disagree on races. That's fine, that's where our difference of opinion comes from.

Just because we disagree and are discussing our opinions, doesn't automatically make it an argument. I actually enjoy conversing with you on a range of topics as you're obviously quite intelligent.

You disagreed with her BUT... just like in the transfers thread, you tack that on then launch into it. You're picking on her precise wording and using that as a springboard to argue with people that she wasn't expressing racist views. I've already pointed out how 'keeping the Muslims out' is racist. Racist meaning, she wants to keep out any people of a certain skin colour who practice Islam. If I converted to Islam tomorrow, do you reckon she'd stop me in the street and try and get me kicked out of the country? Of course not. If I told her I was a practicing Muslim, do you reckon she'd look at me and want to kick me out? I think we both know the answer to that.

 

[jd2010]

Muslim migrants come from certain countries? Bloody hell mate. Muslims come from just about every country. You're now profiling Muslims as specifically middle eastern. Are the extremists in Europe worse than the extremists in the middle east? Why do you assume she just meant middle eastern muslims? Did she say that?

So how is she going to go about stopping a UK muslim?

Putting it on the forms when they apply? Or just ban people from the UK too just incase they are muslim?

 

[SM]

So how is she going to go about stopping a UK muslim?

Putting it on the forms when they apply? Or just ban people from the UK too just incase they are muslim?

She'd probably just judge by their skin colour..... oh wait.

 

[jd2010]

Everyone knows she's meant middle eastern muslims and not muslims in general. Which would be impossible

 

[jd2010]

Unfortunately she didnt get the chance get the chance to talk up her no-muslim policy, then it would have been crystal clear for some to see her message had racist undertones

 

[Jatz]

You disagreed with her BUT... just like in the transfers thread, you tack that on then launch into it. You're picking on her precise wording and using that as a springboard to argue with people that she wasn't expressing racist views. I've already pointed out how 'keeping the Muslims out' is racist. Racist meaning, she wants to keep out any people of a certain skin colour who practice Islam. If I converted to Islam tomorrow, do you reckon she'd stop me in the street and try and get me kicked out of the country? Of course not. If I told her I was a practicing Muslim, do you reckon she'd look at me and want to kick me out? I think we both know the answer to that.

I've already said at the very start that I was nitpicking. You're not telling me anything I don't already know and have said.

Sorry, where did she say anything about a certain skin colour?

 

[typeclub]

The Jews can be considered a race so that's a terrible comparison.

Being Jew is as much of a race as being gay or being vegan.

 

[SM]

Unfortunately she didnt get the chance get the chance to talk up her no-muslim policy, then it would have been crystal clear for some to see her message had racist undertones

It's pretty clear to most of us.

 

[SM]

Being Jew is as much of a race as being gay or being vegan.

What an ill-informed and stupid comment.

 

[SM]

I've already said at the very start that I was nitpicking. You're not telling me anything I don't already know and have said.

Sorry, where did she say anything about a certain skin colour?

You're nitpicking.

 

[Jatz]

You're nitpicking.

Congratulations, you're telling me what I wrote a page ago.

Well yes, that's probably true.


Perhaps. Does she hold the same views for middle eastern people in general or just those of a muslim persuasion? I'm nitpicking with the wording but if it's just muslims she wishes to leave out, and doesn't mind letting non muslim middle eastern people in, then it's technically not racist.

But you're right, probably somewhere there there would be that mindset.

Well done on also ignoring the other comment...

 

[SM]

Congratulations, you're telling me what I wrote a page ago.


Well done on also ignoring the other comment...

I'm entirely aware I was quoting you... you said it in the very post I quoted.

 

[jd2010]

Sorry, where did she say anything about a certain skin colour?

It's said in how she'd want it done. She wants no muslim migrants into the country. Great.

Migrant 1: John Smith, white from the UK. Born Christian becomes a Muslim
Migrant 2: Mansour Muftah, brown from Qatar. Born Muslim

Sonia's policy would be to stop #2 but not #1, unless she thought the best thing to do would be a tick a box if you're muslim section in the application which would just be lied about on application forms to get into Australia

 

[Jatz]

It's said in how she'd want it done. She wants no muslim migrants into the country. Great.

Migrant 1: John Smith, white from the UK. Born Christian becomes a Muslim
Migrant 2: Mansour Muftah, brown from Qatar. Born Muslim

Sonia's policy would be to stop #2 but not #1, unless she thought the best thing to do would be a tick a box if you're muslim section in the application which would just be lied about on application forms to get into Australia

Sure, you're inferring again though - which is fine. Honestly, you're probably right, but (and I've been consistent with this all along) I prefer to wait to see what she says her grand plan is before I judge it. Already I disagree with her blanket statement with stopping Muslims coming in.