List Mgmt. The Official 2012 Trade, Free Agency and List Management Mega Thread

[Artaxx]

They are still developmental players.

IMO very much a positive.

 

[GarnerSmash]

Better already AFL indoctrinated development players (2 first round picks and 1 prelisted GC player) with a few years into them than 3rd round 18 year olds or 26 year old list fillers.

 

[ArjenTheGreat]

We have enough plodding midfielders to sink a battle ship. Other than that, the list is in great shape. Look at how desperate Richmond are to improve, we are different, we haven't ****ed up our drafts like they have.

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

Better already AFL indoctrinated development players (2 first round picks and 1 prelisted GC player) with a few years into them than 3rd round 18 year olds or 26 year old list fillers.

This remains to be seen and will be no excuse for failure in 2013.

 

[GarnerSmash]

This remains to be seen and will be no excuse for failure in 2013.

Failure in 2013 would not necessarily mean that this strategy was incorrect. For that to occur we will need to be killed in the middle in both 2013 and 2014. Like it or not recruiting these guys indicates a long term view. It had better pay off but I like the rationale.

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

Failure in 2013 would not necessarily mean that this strategy was incorrect. For that to occur we will need to be killed in the middle in both 2013 and 2014. Like it or not recruiting these guys indicates a long term view. It had better pay off but I like the rationale.

You might be in to 5 year plans, but I'm not.

The FD have rolled the dice and traded out ready to go depth for speculative youngsters. We can't be expected to pick up the bill for experimentation forever. It's on their heads now. Results.

- Youth won't be an excuse
- Depth wont be an excuse
- Injuries (within reason) won't be an excuse

Otherwise, all Scott and co are doing is taking a random shotgun approach.

 

[Husk]

I see a few people bitching and moaning about our current direction, but I see little detail in how else they would have gone about it.

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

I see a few people bitching and moaning about our current direction, but I see little detail in how else they would have gone about it.

I hope you're not referring to me?

I'd actually be interested to know what is the "direction"? Turnover kids until they fit a single infallible game plan?

 

[AGC]

No infatuation, just sat calmly on this for 3 months and waited for the cards to fall.

Was not worth debating at the time. Now seemed the apt time to point out sometimes its worth stopping talking to listen to others for a change when opinions differ.

If you prefer the path of justification and denial over education so be it.

I'm sorry, but that's incredibly sad. I mean FFS, we're on a footy forum here, supporting the same bloody club, hoping for the same thing. Obviously Teffy is pretty strong with his views, but they're not always off the mark - and if you feel offended by him putting you down, then just leave him be. Use the ignore function and go back to discussing the issue at hand, so the rest of us don't have to go through trawling through petty quarrels.

 

[GarnerSmash]

I hope you're not referring to me?

I'd actually be interested to know what is the "direction"? Turnover kids until they fit a single infallible game plan?

I think there is significant flexibility in both the list of players that we have recruited in recent years and the on field philosophy that Scott has brought to the club. Have we not altered the style of play in each of the last 3 seasons, and twice last season? I do agree however that it would be good to see some creativity from the box on match day when we need it.

We are not the finished product and I am not into 5 year plans if they do not bear fruit, but lets be realistic here, the list had needed a serious rebuild and we are in the position where two more mature VFL mids are not going to push us over the top. The onus is on the likes of Ziebell, Cunnington, Hansen, Basti and Harper to grab their careers by the scruff of the neck and push forward. We know they have the talent but they need to take the weight off the shoulders of Wells, Swallow, Petrie, Thompson and Harvey. Scott looks to have bet on them doing that. Lets see if they can step up to the challenge.

 

[muttley45]

am much happier with our recruiting/list management than richmonds who appear to have gone on the moneyball/crazy vossy path,loading up on other clubs mature aged list cloggers,if tigers again miss the 8,hardwick is on extremely shaky ground,irregardless of their debt reduction,and membership increases,we are so much in front of them as a far as a next premiership is concerned,melbourne also seem to be trying this approach,was only a couple of seasons ago the big debate was who out of us,tigers,and dees would have success first,which in my opinion is now a no brainer,

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

I think there is significant flexibility in both the list of players that we have recruited in recent years and the on field philosophy that Scott has brought to the club. Have we not altered the style of play in each of the last 3 seasons, and twice last season? I do agree however that it would be good to see some creativity from the box on match day when we need it.

We are not the finished product and I am not into 5 year plans if they do not bear fruit, but lets be realistic here, the list had needed a serious rebuild and we are in the position where two more mature VFL mids are not going to push us over the top. The onus is on the likes of Ziebell, Cunnington, Hansen, Basti and Harper to grab their careers by the scruff of the neck and push forward. We know they have the talent but they need to take the weight off the shoulders of Wells, Swallow, Petrie, Thompson and Harvey. Scott looks to have bet on them doing that. Lets see if they can step up to the challenge.

I'm a fan of yours Tron, but I do cringe at your occasional hot air moments.

Please don't "sell" to me, I get enough of that already from the club.

He inherited Brent Harvey, Daniel Wells, Drew Petrie, Mick Firrito, Scott McMahon, Andrew Swallow, Leigh Adams, Lachlan Hansen, Todd Goldstein, Lindsay Thomas, Robbie Tarrant, Levi Greenwood, Scott Thompson, Jack Ziebell, Sam Wright, Liam Anthony and has added Cunnington, Bastinac, MacMillan, Atley and Harper in the mean time, and has others with 2-3 years of development lining up behind them.

He is entering his 4th year and he needs to bring results. He has no excuses any more.

 

[MC_Forward50]

You might be in to 5 year plans, but I'm not.

Sorry to say tef, the five year plan started at the end of season 2009.

If you dont believe me, have a read of the latest true north magazine. More specifically Cam vales letter to supporters.

To paraphrase he said that as part of the plan we put in place, we are still tracking to complete our objective of sustainability and our fifth premiership by 2014.

I dont know how you read that mate but i took that as a five year plan that was implemented at the start of brads coaching tenure.

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

Sorry to say tef, the five year plan started at the end of season 2009.

If you dont believe me, have a read of the latest true north magazine. More specifically Cam vales letter to supporters.

To paraphrase he said that as part of the plan we put in place, we are still tracking to complete our objective of sustainability and our fifth premiership by 2014.

I dont know how you read that mate but i took that as a five year plan that was implemented at the start of brads coaching tenure.

We weren't informed of this in 2010.

It's downright devious to come out and make proclamations 4 years down the track.

 

[MC_Forward50]

We weren't informed of this in 2010.

It's downright devious to come out and make proclamations 4 years down the track.

I would assume all incoming coaches would make presentation on 3,4,5 years plans prior to successful appointment. It gives the board confidence that the coach has a direction.

Not saying that it impresses me, just that im not surprised

 

[GarnerSmash]

I'm a fan of yours Tron, but I do cringe at your occasional hot air moments.

If I want bullshit and spin I can go to the club website.

I arrive at my conclusions by my own thought processes, not by sucking up to the coach, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't accuse me of mouthpeicing spin. If you don't agree with it, that's fine. I don't accuse you of being a facebook loon when you go off the handle. I believe what I say so rather than throwing casual insults please indicate to me where I have got it so wrong.

He inherited Brent Harvey, Daniel Wells, Drew Petrie, Mick Firrito, Scott McMahon, Andrew Swallow, Leigh Adams, Lachlan Hansen, Todd Goldstein, Lindsay Thomas, Robbie Tarrant, Levi Greenwood, Scott Thompson, Jack Ziebell, Sam Wright, Liam Anthony and has added Cunnington, Bastinac, MacMillan, Atley and Harper in the mean time.

He is entering his 4th year and he needs to bring results. He has no excuses any more.

Those he inherited and I have highlighted were nothing but potential when Scott took over, yet does he get credit for their development? Combined with those added since he took over thats half the 22. Does the restructuring of the midfield via the introduction of kids following the removal of Simpson, Harris, Power et al and the emergence of Wells get no mention? Does the restructuring of the forward line get no mention? Or the multiple variants to the game plan over the course of his tenure, exposing the group to different tactical variants that we were void of previously? Was Boomer spinning when he had a crack at the younger guys for not pulling their weight?

Scott ain't perfect. He has chosen a development path for the list and is sticking to it. To me it looks like a path that is focussing on long term, sustained success, not success in ASAP. I don't apologise for wanting that for North, nor for thinking it the best strategy, and by **** am I wise enough to not fall for the spin or an FD and administration covering their arse.

 

[SnowRoo]

I'm a fan of yours Tron, but I do cringe at your occasional hot air moments.

Please don't "sell" to me, I get enough of that already from the club.

He inherited Brent Harvey, Daniel Wells, Drew Petrie, Mick Firrito, Scott McMahon, Andrew Swallow, Leigh Adams, Lachlan Hansen, Todd Goldstein, Lindsay Thomas, Robbie Tarrant, Levi Greenwood, Scott Thompson, Jack Ziebell, Sam Wright, Liam Anthony and has added Cunnington, Bastinac, MacMillan, Atley and Harper in the mean time, and has others with 2-3 years of development lining up behind them.

He is entering his 4th year and he needs to bring results. He has no excuses any more.

From my understanding of your previous post you seem to think 25-26 is the age players are at their best, thus you want us to bring them into the club.

Looking at our rebuild and the core group we have our hopes on;
Hansen - 24
Tarrant - 23
Goldy - 24
Atley - 20
Bastinac - 21
Black - 22
Cunnington - 21
Harper - 20
Kennedy - 21
McKenzie - 19
Wright - 22
Zeibull - 21
C.Delaney - 20
L.Delaney - 23
Daw - 21
MacMillan - 21
Swallow - 25
Thomas - 24
Adams - 24
Greenwood - 23

By your own judgement you think these players are still a few years off but claim no excuses next year. Like it or not 2013 will continue to be a development year. 2014 onwards we can start to raise expectations. Numbers dont lie. This core is coming through together but its simply not mature enough yet.

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

I arrive at my conclusions by my own thought processes, not by sucking the utensil of the coach, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't accuse me of mouthpeicing spin. If you don't agree with it, that's fine. I don't accuse you of being a facebook loon when you go off the handle. I believe what I say so rather than throwing casual insults please indicate to me where I have got it so wrong.

Good. Treat me with the same intelligence and we won't have an issue.

Those he inherited and I have highlighted were nothing but potential when Scott took over, yet does he get credit for their development?

You place too much emphasis on this.

Combined with those added since he took over thats half the 22. Does the restructuring of the midfield via the introduction of kids following the removal of Simpson, Harris, Power et al and the emergence of Wells get no mention?

He has had a truly ******* unbelievable free reign on this issue. Several massive thumpings are a testament to that fact.

What were his two big trades in 2012? Go out and get two more young midfielders.

Does the restructuring of the forward line get no mention?

It took two and a half years and the red light flashing on his career to finally arrive at this move. It was more of a survival move than any genius cunning plan.

Or the multiple variants to the game plan over the course of his tenure, exposing the group to different tactical variants that we were void of previously?

Piss funny. We had the press for two years, that ridiculous handball happy crap in the first half of 2012 and then the more traditional game plan when the red light was going off and he finally woke from his delusions.

Was Boomer spinning when he had a crack at the younger guys for not pulling their weight?

Kids can't deliver what they aren't ready to deliver no matter how many games you give them in the seniors. For all we know, Boomer was having an indirect crack at the footy department.

Scott ain't perfect. He has chosen a development path for the list and is sticking to it. To me it looks like a path that is focussing on long term, sustained success, not success in ASAP. I don't apologise for wanting that for North, nor for thinking it the best strategy, and by **** am I wise enough to not fall for the spin or an FD and administration covering their arse.

Brad gives me the distinct impression that he is far too process driven and does not have enough of an organic element to his approach.

I cannot fault the mans commitment and dedication to the cause as I have had several reliable reports that he goes far above and beyond the call of duty where this is concerned.

I am also concerned by reports that the footy dept have James on a string. Our elected representatives need to know that on field results are going to form a a significant part of their evaluations from this point onwards.

 

[GarnerSmash]

Good. Treat me with the same intelligence and we won't have an issue.

What is it they say about respect?

You place too much emphasis on this.

You pointed it out as if it was a benefit that he had inherited, then ignore that they were a bunch of kids with all the weaknesses that come with that?

He has had a truly ******* unbelievable free reign on this issue. Several massive thumpings are a testament to that fact.

Short term pain, long term gain. We were not going to go anywhere with the midfield we had at that time, and consequently it is this area that has received the greatest overhaul.

What were his two big trades in 2012? Go out and get two more young midfielders.

Big trades in = big payment out. Who do we trade for say a Sam Mitchell? JZ and our first pick? There is no value in the market for players that are actually better than what we have at the minute (unless a flag is there for the taking) and there is no point in bringing in two mature players if they sit in the twos scratching their balls. At least we have brought in 3 players with some hope of improvement in them who may actually have long AFL careers in the 22.

It took two and a half years and the red light flashing on his career to finally arrive at this move. It was more of a survival move than any genius cunning plan.

Or that Taz was developing after shoulder reco's and and Lach was actually earning it in the twos. It was the plan from the beginning of the year but injury, form and suspension rendered it undoable.

Piss funny. We had the press for two years, that ridiculous handball happy crap in the first half of 2012 and then the more traditional game plan when the red light was going off and he finally woke from his delusions.

Or that because we gutted the midfield of experience (which was not taking us anywhere fast) the team had to play styles that suited our list better. Deep zone first, advanced zone second, both of which depend less on endurance and more on positioning. At the start of the year Scott was saying that the players were handballing too much, and he was right. Then, the forward line came together after Taz and Lach showed touch in the VFL and the midfield grew balls and at the same time stopped over possessing.

The alternative is that we could have played this way all along. I call bullshit.

Kids can't deliver what they aren't ready to deliver no matter how many games you give them in the seniors. For all we know, Boomer was having an indirect crack at the footy department.

The kids had their enough is enough moment mid this year and they started delivering. They didn't just become good enough, they had to realise it. 12 months later than Boomer wanted, but they did.

Brad gives me the distinct impression that he is far too process driven and does not have enough of an organic element to his approach.

To date, agreed somewhat.

I cannot fault the mans commitment and dedication to the cause as I have had several reliable reports that he goes far above and beyond the call of duty where this is concerned.

I am also concerned by reports that the footy dept have James on a string. Our elected representatives need to know that on field results are going to form a a significant part of their evaluations from this point onwards.

FD and administration should not be inextricably linked. The admin need to be able to kick the arse of the FD if they are not performing, and the FD need to be able to address the admin in ensuring the players are given all they need to succeed. Buddy buddy is not the best way to go here, I agree.

 

[Reginald0]

one of the main reasons we did better in 2012
is that we kicked straight
like really straight

and we kicked straight mostly because we were kicking from straight in front
which was also a result of the kamikaze style
which was also our undoing at times

now is that the coach the players the game plan

Who is responsible?

 

[Reginald0]

Follow up stats


2009 16th 1680 That is we scored least of 16 teams
2010 9th 1930
2011 7th 2106
2012 3rd 2359

looks like a trend

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

What is it they say about respect?

Keep the generic stuff for the noobs and we won't have an issue.

You pointed it out as if it was a benefit that he had inherited, then ignore that they were a bunch of kids with all the weaknesses that come with that?

They were going to develop even if I was the freakin coach. The players Scott inherited all had the main ingredient, talent.

In fact, he stuffed up and delayed the development of a few of them.

Any decent arm chair judge could predict that Cunnington and Ziebell were going to need some pre seasons and 50 games of senior footy before they would click, and playing them in the AFL was going to make bugger all difference. Just refer to the many (unnecessary) thumpings we endured.

Short term pain, long term gain.

Cliches don't impress me. The pain was unnecessary and it damaged the culture of the club.

We were not going to go anywhere with the midfield we had at that time, and consequently it is this area that has received the greatest overhaul.

We didn't go anywhere by throwing a bunch of underdone kids in to the midfield either.

Big trades in = big payment out. Who do we trade for say a Sam Mitchell? JZ and our first pick? There is no value in the market for players that are actually better than what we have at the minute (unless a flag is there for the taking) and there is no point in bringing in two mature players if they sit in the twos scratching their balls. At least we have brought in 3 players with some hope of improvement in them who may actually have long AFL careers in the 22.

Who mentioned anything about getting a clubs top 3 player?

Or that Taz was developing after shoulder reco's and and Lach was actually earning it in the twos. It was the plan from the beginning of the year but injury, form and suspension rendered it undoable.

Taz I agree, but he ****ed up Hansens development in 2011. Interesting that you mention "earning it in the twos". That criteria clearly didn't apply to many other players.

Or that because we gutted the midfield of experience (which was not taking us anywhere fast) the team had to play styles that suited our list better. Deep zone first, advanced zone second, both of which depend less on endurance and more on positioning.

I fail to see how his program at the time did this.

At the start of the year Scott was saying that the players were handballing too much, and he was right. Then, the forward line came together after Taz and Lach showed touch in the VFL and the midfield grew balls and at the same time stopped over possessing.

You make an excellent revisionist. Scott didn't bring up the handball thing until the season was well underway and his plans were falling down around him. Tarrant and Hansen didn't deliver anything more than they delivered in the VFL for several rounds. I know, I watched them.

The kids had their enough is enough moment mid this year and they started delivering. They didn't just become good enough, they had to realise it. 12 months later than Boomer wanted, but they did.

It's somewhat amazing how this managed to coincide with the radical rejigging of the team structure. Let's just put that down to coincidence.

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

one of the main reasons we did better in 2012
is that we kicked straight
like really straight

and we kicked straight mostly because we were kicking from straight in front
which was also a result of the kamikaze style
which was also our undoing at times

now is that the coach the players the game plan

Who is responsible?

Lindsay came good and a more direct style of play supported by a more traditional forward line helped the cause.

Regardless of all the crap you might hear, football is a simple game with simple fundamentals.

 

[Zondor]

Had we recruited Cornes and Tuck as I suggested we should we wouldn't be having this discussion. In actual fact we would have won the Premiership by now. :stern look

But to be serious for a moment, we miss the 8 and Brad Scott is in big trouble. Bottom Line. Make no mistake about it. Full stop. and Ejaculation Mark!

 

[naturally north]

Had we recruited Cornes and Tuck as I suggested we should we wouldn't be having this discussion. In actual fact we would have won the Premiership by now. :stern look

But to be serious for a moment, we miss the 8 and Brad Scott is in big trouble. Bottom Line. Make no mistake about it. Full stop. and Ejaculation Mark!

Yes I agree Graham Cornes and Michael Tuck- would boost our games experience and the avg age of our list. And if we were watching Play School it would be the premiership window we'd be looking out of.

Upping the ante of your seriousness, I doubt seriously Scott would be sacked should we miss the eight. Who we going to get? Would set us back another five years.

I like our list, and I admit I've been walking the streets at night

you might say just tyrin' to get it right.......


Little patience, mmm yeah, mm yeah
Need a little patience, yeah
Just a little patience, yeah
Some more patience, yeah
Could use some patience, yeah
Gotta have some patience, yeah
All it takes is patience
Just a little patience
Is all you need