The on topic thread

[Magma]

appalling when you consider over the last couple of seasons we've generally been really good against the other big teams.

 

[moomba]

Big changes to the rules on foreign players coming up.

ootball Association chairman Greg Dyke today outlined new proposals to change the rules governing home grown players in English football.

The recommendations are the latest in a series of initiatives identified as part of the England Commission, set up by Dyke in 2013 to look at ways of improving the chances of young English talent succeeding at the highest levels of the game.

Following FA-led discussions the Home Office has also confirmed changes to the existing work permit regulations, to ensure only the most talented non-EU players meet new criteria.

The changes to the home grown player rules as proposed by Dyke are:

A change in the definition of home grown player to any player, irrespective of their nationality, who has been registered with any club affiliated to The FA or Football Association of Wales (FAW) for a period of three years prior to the player’s 18th birthday (currently the definition states a home grown player has to be registered with The FA or FAW for three years before their 21st birthday).
A reduction in the maximum number of non-home grown players permitted in a club’s first team squad of 25 from 17 to 13, phased over four years from 2016. This would have the effect of ensuring that in a squad of 25, 12 players would have to be home grown.
The introduction of a requirement that at least two home grown players are also club trained players (a club trained player is defined as any player, irrespective of nationality, that has been registered for three years at their current club prior to their 18th birthday).
The England Commission identified four key areas which were contributing to a shortage of top quality English players breaking through to the top tier of club football. These were:

A lack of quality coaching.
An absence of quality facilities at grassroots level.
A lack of opportunities for home grown players to play competitive first team football between the ages of 18 and 21.
The regulation of the English players market’s effectiveness in preserving the desired balance of British, EU and non-EU players.
To start addressing these problems, in October 2014, The FA announced a major investment in coaching including a new head of coaching education at St. George’s Park, 35 full-time FA coach educators and a plan to drastically raise the number of Advanced Youth and Pro Licence coaching qualification holders.

The FA also announced a plan to create football hubs in 30 English cities by 2020, with a 130% increase in artificial grass pitches in urban areas and a 50% rise in publicly accessible full-size pitches.

But Dyke believes the final part of the pipeline for young home grown talent is still broken. Today’s proposed rule changes are designed to fix this long running problem.

Young players in other leading European footballing nations are being given greater opportunities to play regular senior club football between the crucial ages of 18 and 21.

English Under-21 players are getting less than half the playing time of their German, Spanish and French equivalents across the major five European leagues.

For the 12 clubs who have played in every one of the last five Premier League seasons, the number of home grown players per squad has decreased from 11.4 to 9.4. This is exacerbated by the fact that only 62% of current home grown players are qualified to play for England.

Dyke said: “The Premier League clubs, who invest millions of pounds through their academies and the Elite Player Performance Programme (EPPP), are doing a fantastic job at developing young talent. But many of the home grown players being developed at these academies are not breaking through to play regular first team football.

“The Premier League has already recognised the problem and introduced home grown player quotas. But since those rules were introduced in 2010, the average number of home grown players in a Premier League squad has stayed largely the same and has actually decreased significantly at the 12 clubs who have been ever present in the League during that period.”

The FA will now embark on a period of consultation with all stakeholders in English football with the stated aim of introducing these changes over a phased four-season period so they are fully in force by the start of the 2019-2020 season.

Dyke added: “In 2014, just 23 English players were playing Champions League football. That compares with 78 Spanish players, 55 from Germany and even 51 from Brazil – and the numbers will only get worse. If we want to maintain a national side capable of competing against the world’s best, we need change.

“As the body responsible for all of English football, it’s The FA’s duty to create as many opportunities as possible for young home grown talent to compete at the highest level.

“This is not simply because it will increase the pool of quality players available to the England manager, but because the development of genuine, local talent is fundamental to the sustainability of our clubs and the health of our national game.

“These proposals will ensure that the letter of the law around home grown players matches the spirit in which they were first conceived. We want the whole of the English game to support these proposals.”

Read more at http://www.thefa.com/news/thefa/201...s-work-permits-march-2015#1wlZefVKUWlmyY6P.99

 

[jd2010]

Can only be a good thing!

Would go even further and enforce the rule that some countries have that 6 of the 18 in the matchday squad spent 3 years before 21 training in the UK

 

[moomba]

I'd rather see the best players regardless of where they were born.

It'll end up rewarding mediocre English players and the standard of the league will suffer.

And from our perspective I would hope we're getting a pretty decent supply of English players from our academy.

But I would think there are probably a dozen top talents from U16 up that we've put time and effort into developing that we'll have to move on because we just can't justify giving them one of 13 spots.

 

[jd2010]

I think with the rise of perennial loanees like Kane & Mason coming from nowhere to be key players for us is opening up the FA's eyes that there are failures in the game. Put it this way, if AVB or Redknapp were in charge neither would be playing Premier League football this season. It has been a known roadblock at our club in the past with some other even higher rated homegrown talent and I'm sure it's a problem at quite a few more clubs too

 

[moomba]

I think these plans were being worked out before Kane and Mason. It's basically a reaction to England being shit at international level.

 

[ADL9798]

On face value this seems a good move by the FA. You can see exactly what the FA are aiming to accomplish here; you set the rules and the incentives, clubs will respond accordingly and do the leg work for you.

There's absolutely no reason why British clubs shouldn't be able to produce talent on the same level as their counterparts in Germany, Spain etc. This rule should see the bigger clubs (who I would've though are probably the only ones in the league at risk of not meeting this requirement were it to be implemented tomorrow) taking greater responsibility for the future of football in this country and investing more of their time and significant resources into developing and giving opportunities to young English players which can only be a good thing.

Having said that, there are a few side effects I can see coming about as a result of this:

1. Higher demand for and relatively low supply of top English talents will see their market value skyrocket even further in the next few transfer windows.
2. Poaching of foreign talent (if any) at the age of 15 (instead of 16, as seems to be commonplace at present) to allow them to meet the new threshold of 3 years in the English system before their 18th birthday.

From Liverpool's perspective, whether it's excellent foresight or good fortune I'm glad we've locked up the likes of Sturridge, Lallana, Henderson, Sterling, Ibe etc. If people think we overpaid when we bought them, they're going to be in for a rude shock when they see the fees paid for English players in the next few years. If the rules dictate that you must have x number of homegrown players in your squad then you might aswell make sure you have the best available so you aren't wasting any spots. Naturally this is going to lead to a sh*tfight amongst the wealthier sides for the top English talents.

 

[moomba]

2. Poaching of foreign talent (if any) at the age of 15 (instead of 16, as seems to be commonplace at present) to allow them to meet the new threshold of 3 years in the English system before their 18th birthday.

I don't think you can play for a foreign club until you're 16. We signed Brahim a while back, he hasnt been able to play for us in an official match until recently after his 16th birthday.

If anything I can see more of the best Englush players plucked from mid range clubs to fill out squads.

Fulfils the FA requirements, but not in the interests of the game.

As for bigger clubs putting the time and effort into development, the FA hasnt given the new academy rules a chance to work.

Clubs have committed more money, more resources, more time into training kids. But the FA arent even going to see how that works.

 

[SM]

I hate this 'club trained player' needing to be registered for three years prior to their 18th. Hull had this issue in Europa and had to name a smaller squad because we had no one who had come through the Academy.

 

[Jatz]

Why don't you improve your academy? Genuine question, I'm not taking a shot.

 

[Magma]

fa like to talk but have no real sustainable solutions.

it all starts with grass roots. stop blaming clubs when you can't sort out your under 12's and that. it's not the job of the clubs to only develop english kids.

 

[SM]

Why don't you improve your academy? Genuine question, I'm not taking a shot.

We are improving it, but it still takes at minimum 3 years to get a decent player through as per those regulations. Clubs like Burnley, Stoke and others also don't have great Academies.

 

[Redalert]

Not sure how effective it really will be, largely because it seems like it lacks a developmental focus. It'll just lead to more fringe English players competing in the Premier League, and I really doubt that there are that many other "Harry Kanes" are out there who are good enough but not getting game time (particularly as they'd presumably already fall in the home-grown player contingent already). As somebody mentioned the key is developing players from a grassroots level, rather than relying on the clubs to develop English talent from square one.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blog...relentless--vile-fans-to-blame-144508508.html

This has to be satire but knowing liverpool fans.

 

[moomba]

So the Madrid fans really don't like Bale do they?

You'd think he'll be back in England next year for sure.

 

[jd2010]

Not sure how effective it really will be, largely because it seems like it lacks a developmental focus. It'll just lead to more fringe English players competing in the Premier League, and I really doubt that there are that many other "Harry Kanes" are out there who are good enough but not getting game time (particularly as they'd presumably already fall in the home-grown player contingent already). As somebody mentioned the key is developing players from a grassroots level, rather than relying on the clubs to develop English talent from square one.

From our academy alone there is higher rated talent than Mason & Kane who never got a look in from Redknapp like Parret & Bostock. Captains up England youth sides who weren't even given a look in on cup benches at 19-21. Sherwood for all his idiot remarks took the chance as has Poch with Mason. Neither were instant successes. Kane was so-so at the end of the last campaign and Mason has had his moments this season. I think if clubs were forced to take a punt rather than not it could be beneficially to young English talent.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

Great limit foreigners so crappy english players will go for higher wages and transfer fees.

The EPL has too much english players in it as they never go to other leagues or cultures.

 

[jd2010]

Great limit foreigners so crappy english players will go for higher wages and transfer fees.

The EPL has too much english players in it as they never go to other leagues or cultures.

That is one of the most ridiculous comments I've heard. It's common knowledge of the top leagues in Europe HG players in the EPL is well below the rest. Something like 30% of players are British compared to above 40% of locals in Spain & Germany

 

[moomba]

Is whats beneficial to English plays good for the league or clubs though.

I look at City, we'll have our 13 foreigners. We'll sign 7 or 8 of the best English players to back them up. We'll get rid of most of our top academy prospects like Lopes, Denayer as we won't be able to justify a foreign spot on a chance for a kid. It won't give more opportunity for our English academy kids I don't think.

 

[jd2010]

Is whats beneficial to English plays good for the league or clubs though.

I look at City, we'll have our 13 foreigners. We'll sign 7 or 8 of the best English players to back them up. We'll get rid of most of our top academy prospects like Lopes, Denayer as we won't be able to justify a foreign spot on a chance for a kid. It won't give more opportunity for our English academy kids I don't think.

At the end of the day the FA don't give a stuff about the quality of the league. And nor should they.

 

[jd2010]

With all the foreigners coming in England is poor on the international scene and it's clubs in continental competitions. They're one of the few (possibly only) leagues with such weak rulings on foreigners. If it's clearing working elsewhere why not fall into line

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

That is one of the most ridiculous comments I've heard. It's common knowledge of the top leagues in Europe HG players in the EPL is well below the rest. Something like 30% of players are British compared to above 40% of locals in Spain & Germany

But they get trained in draconian fashion and only the very select few that reach top level clubs get training that is good enough,

Soccernomics goes into this is far greater detail.

 

[jd2010]

But they get trained in draconian fashion and only the very select few that reach top level clubs get training that is good enough,

Soccernomics goes into this is far greater detail.

They can't just accept what is currently going on. Yes the quality and quantity of high level coaching isn't up to standard in the UK, and that is being improved. But they can't just accept what is happening as it will only increase the gap between the national side and the other major nations.

How on earth hacks like Paulinho or even some in the Football League can be given work permits is beyond me. Thankfully they'll be fixing that and making it even harder to get permits. I know it won't make Gooners happy as Wenger has mentioned how many failed signings WP laws has cost him but it has to happen.

 

[Redalert]

From our academy alone there is higher rated talent than Mason & Kane who never got a look in from Redknapp like Parret & Bostock. Captains up England youth sides who weren't even given a look in on cup benches at 19-21. Sherwood for all his idiot remarks took the chance as has Poch with Mason. Neither were instant successes. Kane was so-so at the end of the last campaign and Mason has had his moments this season. I think if clubs were forced to take a punt rather than not it could be beneficially to young English talent.

But was the talent even there to begin with? Its hard to tell if it really was given we never saw it. Also Redkmapp is renowned for not giving youth a go anywhere, just look at his record at QPR and Portsmouth, so I'm not sure he's a great example to bring up. My personal opinion is that the players who come through the youth academies just aren't up to standard, and that's the real source of the problem.

Increasing the home-grown player quota will marginally improve the quality of players being brought through (as some more get first-team opportunities), but I think its addressing the wrong end of the issue.

 

[Zidane98]

So the Madrid fans really don't like Bale do they?

You'd think he'll be back in England next year for sure.

I thought that was just Marca running a campaign against him but it may actually be true. They'd be idiots to sell him and not flog off Ronaldo who is starting to decline.