The on topic thread

[Magma]

england's blind patriotism surrounding their players is a bigger burden to their players than they think

the second an english player shows an ounce of ability they're the next coming of something. how many young english players don't end up having some sort of nonsense going on off the pitch?

it's a generalisation but due to all the money in the english game, these young guys can essentially name their price and then they're free to do whatever they want with the cash. sterling's supposedly asking for upwards for 120k a week. for a 20 year old. that's insane. that's not saying he's going to go out and do a bunch of shit, but others do. english players in general seem to much less humble and hardworking than their german, spanish and french counterparts, just to name a couple of countries.

 

[Magma]

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

Sorry to change the convo but this is the appropriate place to put this. Enjoy your ban campaigner

View attachment 118691

I dont see whats wrong with this.

Its only the liverpool squad photo for this season.

 

[moomba]

Re the proposed work permit changes.

- You have to have played 30% of international games over the last two years if your country is ranked 1-10
- 45% of games if your country is ranked 11-20
- 60% if your country is ranked 21-30
- 75% if your country is ranked 31-50

If you're under 21 it's only based on the last year.

It's beyond me why they put rules like this in. It's such an arbitrary system. There will still be an appeals process but it will be tightened up.

The FA reckon there will be a 33% decrease in visa applications as a result.

Unlike the other changes this one looks like it will get up as it doesn't need the clubs permission. No more Australians getting work visas it seems.

 

[jd2010]

- You have to have played 30% of international games over the last two years if your country is ranked 1-10
- 45% of games if your country is ranked 11-20
- 60% if your country is ranked 21-30
- 75% if your country is ranked 31-50

What's the deal if they aren't ranked in the top 50? Have a big problem if that is a flat out no. Think the 75% rule should be for all countries outside the top 50 though. If a guy can't play 3 out of 4 international games for a side like Angola he has no place getting a WP to play in League One!

 

[moomba]

Jozy Altidore automatically qualifies for a work permit. And I know you love him.

Your nationality has very little to do with your football ability. Putting a formula to deem certain players worthy of a visa and others not is rank bueaurocratic stupidity.

Your Angolan player might have fallen out with his national manager. He might play for a club that dissuades players from national duty.

 

[jd2010]

Players that would have failed in the past window.
1. Enner Valencia (West Ham)
2. Christian Gamboa (WBA)
3. Abel Hernandez (Hull)

Wouldn't say any of the 3 have been standouts at their clubs. Hernandez compared to your other strikers SM?

Summer 2013 Transfer Window
1. Willian Da Silva (Chelsea)
2. Victor Wanyama (Southampton)
3. Kenneth Omeruo (Chelsea)
4. Antolin Alcaraz (Everton)
5. Fernandinho (Manchester City)

#1 and #2 would have passed on appeal having had significant CL experience. Probably even #5 not that I think he was a great buy for that money. The less said about #4 the better. Awful player!

Winter 2013 Transfer Window
1. Brek Shea (Stoke City)
2. Philippe Coutinho (Liverpool)
3. Yun Suk Young (QPR)
4. Kei Kamara (Norwich)

Couthinho would have still passed on appeal. The other 3 stink.

 

[moomba]

No guarantee players would pass on appeal. They are making that more difficult.

I suspect you're judging the chances of a successful appeal based on how they turned out, not how they were at the time.

As for Brek Shea he'll be eligible for automatic visa in the next few years under this rule.

I doubt participation in the champions league would automatically qualify you.

 

[jd2010]

Don't get me wrong I think lowering the rankings from 70 to 50 is bad. But something needs to get done in England overall, not just the premiership. Like I said currently a Burkina Faso central midfielder can pass a work permit to go play at Sheffield Wednesday no drama. IMO that is wrong!

 

[jd2010]

No guarantee players would pass on appeal. They are making that more difficult.

I doubt participation in the champions league would automatically qualify you.

A current stipulation in the appeal process is having played in more than half your clubs top tier continental cup matches over a certain period. No mention of that being scrapped

 

[moomba]

A current stipulation is having played in more than half your clubs top tier continental cup matches over a certain period. No mention of that being scrapped

That has never entitled you to a successful work permit appeal. And they are changing the criteria for appeals.

 

[moomba]

Don't get me wrong I think lowering the rankings from 70 to 50 is bad. But something needs to get done in England overall, not just the premiership. Like I said currently a Burkina Faso central midfielder can pass a work permit to go play at Sheffield Wednesday no drama. IMO that is wrong!

Why? Because he was born in Burkino Faso? Are they not allowed good footballers?

I have no idea who you're referring to, but surely it should be about his quality and what he has to offer rather than his passport.

George Weah was a librarian.

 

[jd2010]

That has never entitled you to a successful work permit appeal. And they are changing the criteria for appeals.

It is what is used to meet the criteria more often than not. Also they haven't said what part of the appeals is changing. Currently it is:

• To consider whether the player is of the highest calibre
• To consider whether the player is able to contribute significantly to the development of the game at the top level in the UK

Now that is well and good for signing a guy like Gabriel Paulista or Willian but nobody signing below the PL should pass IMO. The problem isn't the appeals it's the issue mentioned earlier. Any football league side being able to sign a Burkina Faso or UAE regular

 

[moomba]

“There will still be an ‘exceptions panel’ but it will no longer be reliant solely on subjective supporting evidence, but will make the decisions based on stricter assessment of relevant objective criteria.

“The new system will make it far easier for us to identify and attract top quality players that truly are at the elite level, and it will make it far tougher for those who don’t meet the quality standard to get to play in Britain.

That to me suggests they'll rely on data rather than peoples opinions on the quality of a player.

 

[jd2010]

Why? Because he was born in Burkino Faso? Are they not allowed good footballers?

I have no idea who you're referring to, but surely it should be about his quality and what he has to offer rather than his passport.

George Weah was a librarian.

I'm talking about the lack of quality he must have to better the game of football in the UK if he is being signed by a club in the 3rd tier!

 

[moomba]

I'm talking about the lack of quality he must have to better the game of football in the UK if he is being signed by a club in the 3rd tier!

Of course he can better the game if he is good enough. Football isn't just about the premier league.

Whether he is good enough or not, surely can't be determined by the ranking of his national side.

 

[jd2010]

Of course he can better the game if he is good enough. Football isn't just about the premier league.

• To consider whether the player is of the highest calibre
• To consider whether the player is able to contribute significantly to the development of the game at the top level in the UK

Being a plonker from a country ranked 60-something in the world from outside the EU playing in the lower divisions isn't doing this. And yes that includes our Socceroos too. Including Luongo's sale from Spurs to Swindon!

 

[moomba]

One of the best players I've seen at City is Ali Bernarbia. Ask most City supporters and he would be in our top 10 players of the modern era. Shaun Goater would also be there. Georgi Kinkladze up there as well.

Two of them were signed by us when we were in the lower leagues. One of them played in the lower leagues with us. For me they all greatly contributed to the sport in England.

Without checking, none of them would be allowed into the country under these rules (maybe Bernarbia if he had a French passport).

Your country ranking does not determine your quality as a footballer. Neither does the team you play for.

 

[jd2010]

For me it's fundamentally wrong for someone who needs a work permit can sign for a club outside the Championship and Premier League. 3rd tier football is not for that kind of thing I'm afraid. I can see you have affinity with certain players and will have a specific opinion on the matter based on that. But for the overall good of the game in the UK Ismail Al Hammadi or Aristide Bance should not be allowed to sign for any club who wants them in the UK

 

[moomba]

For me it's fundamentally wrong for someone who needs a work permit can sign for a club outside the Championship and Premier League. 3rd tier football is not for that kind of thing I'm afraid. I can see you have affinity with certain players and will have a specific opinion on the matter based on that. But for the overall good of the game in the UK Ismail Al Hammadi or Aristide Bance should not be allowed to sign for any club who wants them in the UK

For me thats a discriminatory policy.

Judge the player on their merits, not their nationality. Ismail Al Hammadi or Aristide Bance may not be considered worthy of a work permit on merit. But if they are, the fact that a 3rd division club gets their signature and not a premier league club should make no difference IMO.

 

[jd2010]

Merit has to be judged somehow. Club wanting to sign you, ranking of the nation you play for and club & competition you're coming from is still the only way to do that with a new signing.

 

[moomba]

All three are stupid ways of assessing worth.

At least with the old system you could provide supporting evidence to justify your claims for a special exemption.

Now, it's just "computer says no". And thats that.

 

[jd2010]

It's the same across all work fields in the UK to be fair. If you're not from the EU and are not of exceptional talent (certrain degrees) or not hired by a big company (sponsored visa) you will not be allowed in. Football should be no different

 

[jod23]

Wow.

When we made the Champions League final in 2011 everything was going through Giggs, he almost single handedly dismantled Chelsea and Schalke on route to the final.

Regardless of who has been the better out of any of Giggs, Scholes, Lampard or Gerrard, Stevie G's game relied on his athleticism and physical traits more than the others hence why he burned out earlier than they did. Before you get offended that's not a knock on Gerrard, his engine and athleticism were world class in his day, whereas Giggs was a more technical player and was able to adapt his game to combat his declining physical attributes, hence why he was able to dominate late into his 30's.

What are you on about Giggs never dominated anything in his late 30's. He was a bit part player. He was never blessed with the same kind of athleticism that Gerrard had so he could still be effective in short bursts from the bench well into his late 30's. But the word "dominate" has no place in Giggs' efforts after he turned about 34.

Also he isnt in the conversation with Scholes, Lampard and Gerrard. No where near in that conversation.

 

[moomba]

It's the same across all work fields in the UK to be fair. If you're not from the EU and are not of exceptional talent (certrain degrees) or not hired by a big company (sponsored visa) you will not be allowed in. Football should be no different

It's nothing like the current work visa system.