Roast The opposition piling on goals

[Lana]

It feels as though we've experienced these issues before.

The Hawkins-led forward line has ran reasonably smoothly for the most part in recent years, but there was a time a few seasons ago where it seemed we just were not getting bang for our F50 buck; often seemed as though in an attempt to lock the ball into our F50 we were actually clogging up the zone and making it tough to score, despite our dominance.
Scott should know how to remedy the current inefficiency, it is an issue he has encountered before.

I think it is something to do with conversion

We're number 1 in the MI50 differential, We're 4th in Scores/I50 but 9th in G/I50

We're 2nd last in G/B

 

[gogeelongcats]

The team is in decline.
We need to refresh with youth.
No use topping up.

1/Need a ruckman desperately.
2/Inside mids is our next priority.
3/Followed by key backs.
Holes appearing everywhere

Most teams have power forward combinations now which we have to combat. Missing Henry big time as the run from Stewart is curtailed.

The holes lead to panic resulting in bursts we cannot counter.

 

[Sensible Cat]

R2 Q2 Sydney 7.0
R3 Q3 Collingwood 9.1
R5 Q4 Hawthorn 4.4 (to 0.4)
R6 Q4 North 5.2
R7 Q3 Freo 4.1 (to 1.2)
R8 Q3 St Kilda 7.4

Houston, we have a problem.

It's actually even bigger than that.
Q4 Round 22 last year.
2 of our 3 Finals.

 

[Sensible Cat]

Likewise if you are not good at it you can lose a game in 5 mins.

#hitoutsmatter

Reports and and other footy crimes are over 50% higher in high hitout areas than non hitout areas.
Nothing against hitouts, I've got friends who are ruckman.
Just saying, you know.

 

[iameviljez]

Reports and and other footy crimes are over 50% higher in high hitout areas than non hitout areas.
Nothing against hitouts, I've got friends who are ruckman.
Just saying, you know.

Yes, but have we considered ruckman-on-ruckman crimes?

 

[And_ROOS]

Anyone suggesting defense is mental, the issue this year is the same as the last two, without a competent ruck, and a proper ruck coach, we get blasted out of the middle. Saints yesterday had so many easy clearance wins, whereas so many of ours were slow and laboured. Ryders tap work for one of their goals is something only Hawkins is capable of, and thats pretty damning at any of the rucks we have had since Ottens left.

 

[Jimmy Yamazaki]

It happens every finals series so nothing new. Even against poor opposition during the H&A they still get a run on and we have a qtr fade out.

Look at just this year alone. Pies 3rd qtr, Hawks,Essendon and Norf 4th qtr are all poor efforts by us. There will be countless other examples during the past decade of similar fade outs.

Been happening for a long time.

 

[Sensible Cat]

Yes, but have we considered ruckman-on-ruckman crimes?

It's not their fault though. The lack of decent ruck coach role models at clubs and the continued lowering of doors just perpetuates the cycle.

 

[thejester]

Anyone suggesting defense is mental, the issue this year is the same as the last two, without a competent ruck, and a proper ruck coach, we get blasted out of the middle. Saints yesterday had so many easy clearance wins, whereas so many of ours were slow and laboured. Ryders tap work for one of their goals is something only Hawkins is capable of, and thats pretty damning at any of the rucks we have had since Ottens left.

Centre clearances were 12-11 in their favour. Wouldn't the disparity be bigger if it was just ruck work?

 

[iameviljez]

It's not their fault though. The lack of decent ruck coach role models at clubs and the continued lowering of doors just perpetuates the cycle.

I think we need to confront the systemic anti-ruck issues that perpetuate our system, though: #defendthebrownlow

 

[Sensible Cat]

I think we need to confront the systemic anti-ruck issues that perpetuate our system, though: #defendthebrownlow

The problem is when ruckman get angry and rise up they seem to destroy their own areas like the top of fridges, the upper shelves at supermarkets etc.
Once again I've got tall friends.
Just sayin. You know

 

[iameviljez]

The problem is when ruckman get angry and rise up they seem to destroy their own areas like the top of fridges, the upper shelves at supermarkets etc.
Once again I've got tall friends.
Just sayin. You know

I think we need to have a conservation about statues of rovers outside the MCG...

 

[Sensible Cat]

I think we need to have a conservation about statues of rovers outside the MCG...

Absolutely. I hope someone smashes all those statues.
Some place names really need to be changed too.
Like Lower Plenty, or Lower Ferntree Gully for example.
It's like really? In this day and age.

 

[And_ROOS]

Centre clearances were 12-11 in their favour. Wouldn't the disparity be bigger if it was just ruck work?

Quality V Quantity. Few years ago we would smash teams in the clearances and i50 but lose because we would kick it straight to the opposition.

That third quarter everytime they got the ball out, their mids had time and space. For us it was a bodge job.

Also noticed that when we would win clearances our players kicked quicker it rather than carried it. Saints had better deep i50 entries, a lot of ours were shallow. And when they would rebound from our 50 (which happens a bit at the moment) its easier for them to go up the other end of the field.

 

[thejester]

Quality V Quantity. Few years ago we would smash teams in the clearances and i50 but lose because we would kick it straight to the opposition.

That third quarter everytime they got the ball out, their mids had time and space. For us it was a bodge job.

Right, but if it was just a ruck issue, why did it only happen in the third quarter? Why couldn't do they do it all night?

Also noticed that when we would win clearances our players kicked quicker it rather than carried it. Saints had better deep i50 entries, a lot of ours were shallow. And when they would rebound from our 50 (which happens a bit at the moment) its easier for them to go up the other end of the field.

I'm not really sure how either of those things are related to ruck work, though?

 

[goyoucatters]

I feel as if we need to add more players to the inside midfield rotation after half time, after thinking what do we have left to throw in there, Tom Atkins?

Cooper Stephens, Sam Simpson and Max Holmes would help in this regard. Of course, only one of this trio is available right now.

 

[And_ROOS]

Right, but if it was just a ruck issue, why did it only happen in the third quarter? Why couldn't do they do it all night?


I'm not really sure how either of those things are related to ruck work, though?

Overall its a midfield issue, but when you lack a quality ruck it shows. Things were even, then in the third their ruck quality was the difference. Initially we got a few clearances from reading their ruck work in the 1st and 2nd but you can't do that for a full game its weight of numbers.
Eventually their quality rucks took control, and then while the clearance numbers might be similar which would you prefer to be? Midfielder getting the ball in space and running to the edge of the centre square and having options to kick at, or our mids who have to dump kick it when they get it under heat because even when Stanley or Blicavs win the hit its rarely to a good advantage.
As said, Hawkins is the only ruck (lol) we have, who regularly wins a tap out to a clear advantage of the player he hits it to.

The last bit is just commenting on the result of decent ruck work. Saints get better quality service and thats the result.

While we are talking rucks, the other thing is the fact Stanley is effectively worthless around the ground of late. Their rucks combined for 4 goals. Blicavs has to be everywhere else, if Stanley isn't kicking goals when resting, he has no real worth.
Not a fan of Esava but could he have done better than 5 disposals and 2 marks?
Would one of our kids in the VFL done worse?

 

[thejester]

Overall its a midfield issue, but when you lack a quality ruck it shows. Things were even, then in the third their ruck quality was the difference. Initially we got a few clearances from reading their ruck work in the 1st and 2nd but you can't do that for a full game its weight of numbers.
Eventually their quality rucks took control, and then while the clearance numbers might be similar which would you prefer to be? Midfielder getting the ball in space and running to the edge of the centre square and having options to kick at, or our mids who have to dump kick it when they get it under heat because even when Stanley or Blicavs win the hit its rarely to a good advantage.
As said, Hawkins is the only ruck (lol) we have, who regularly wins a tap out to a clear advantage of the player he hits it to.

The last bit is just commenting on the result of decent ruck work. Saints get better quality service and thats the result.

For my sins I just watched every centre clearance between the Jones goal in the middle of the third and the end of the quarter. Here is what I came up with:

Centre clearance: Stanley mistimes his jump, Marshall gets it straight to the Saints player who emerges into space.

Next Centre clearance: Stanley in ruck, indeterminate tap, Dangerfield gets it in acres of space and immediately kicks in forward 50. Saints clear

Next centre clearance: Ryder tap, Saints midfielder doesn’t get clean possession but recovers and handballs to Ross, who just runs around Guthrie to kick inside 50

Centre Clearance (At that point scores from stoppages were 5.5 to 4.4): Blicavs tap, ball bobbles, all Geelong players are drawn into the ball. Saints player wins it, dishes handball to Crouch, who can go to Ross who is goal side already. Duncan drops a difficult mark, Saints score.

Centre Clearance: Marshall tap against Blicavs that Selwood wins, dishes to Cameron who panics and kicks a floater inside 50. Parfitt wins the ground ball, fisted through for a behind.

One centre clearance matched your description of a Saints player being put into space by a tap. We won two of the five and both times the Geelong player was in space but didn't exploit it - even then the ball went inside 50. The ruck work explanation is not entirely convincing!

While we are talking rucks, the other thing is the fact Stanley is effectively worthless around the ground of late. Their rucks combined for 4 goals. Blicavs has to be everywhere else, if Stanley isn't kicking goals when resting, he has no real worth.

Not a fan of Esava but could he have done better than 5 disposals and 2 marks?
Would one of our kids in the VFL done worse?

Stanley spent most of the first quarter on the bench getting assessed for an injury and was clearly proppy when he came back on. As to his actual output: with the exception of tackles, his stats are basically identical to Marshall's this season. Again, I don't think he's a convincing explanation!

 

[Catman]

Gut feel is it’s more a midfield issue. I think we lose control from the centre during these periods and can’t find a way to arrest it back. We lose clearances, CPs and UPs during these periods.

We led the CP at HT and by 3/4 time we trailed by 12.

Felt we completely lost control with Blitz in the ruck and Stanley off in the second half of that third quarter.

 

[Catman]

Regarding the bold - how many matches this year have we been the dominant team, yet but been able to put the score on the board to reflect our domination?

We showed a free scoring ability against Essendon in round 1 & then again in the last quarter against Collingwood in our come from behind win - but for all our domination in our other matches we really haven't been able to break games open

Last night St Kilda turned their period off domination into a 7 goal 3rd quarter - if we were able to do similar in the second quarter than we may have broken the game open, and rather than hovering around a 20pt lead, we've pushed it out to a 40pt lead and it's a different game

I'd also argue our poor conversion is contributing to our woes substantially.

Of our 9 matches, we've kicked more goals than behinds just three times for 2 wins a 1 loss. And one of those wins really should have been a loss had our opponent kicked straight.

No better pressure than scoreboard pressure and for years we have lengthy periods of ascendency but the scoreboard fails to reflect it. I've lost count of the times I've said, "We should be further in front" over the past few seasons. Probably cost us a flag in both 2019 and 2020.

 

[Vdubs]

We have very little tolerance between our best and falling away, and our best is becoming less sustainable. Its like the load is spread thinner, and the shoulders to carry the load are not as strong as they once were. Once a side gets a run on us our confidence is fragile as most have now seen we struggle to turn the other side off.

Its just a sign our best are not the best, and our side has too many that are passed their best , or their best is not good enough. So be it. No shame in it but we just have to realise where we are. If we are brave the next three years will hurt. It will sting and probably reinvigorate. Its not all bad..its just the circle of life in a socialistic comp.

Absolutely spot on.

 

[iameviljez]

Absolutely. I hope someone smashes all those statues.
Some place names really need to be changed too.
Like Lower Plenty, or Lower Ferntree Gully for example.
It's like really? In this day and age.

Looks like I've been reading #notallmen wrong for years! no*tall*men

 

[iameviljez]

We led the CP at HT and by 3/4 time we trailed by 12.

Felt we completely lost control with Blitz in the ruck and Stanley off in the second half of that third quarter.

The one thing I don't want us to do now that we've invested in Toby Conway and Shannon Neale, is trade for a ruckman.

I could live with a Stef Martin cheapie if Ceglar doesn't come through, but otherwise...

 

[My Tilly]

The one thing I don't want us to do now that we've invested in Toby Conway and Shannon Neale, is trade for a ruckman.

I could live with a Stef Martin cheapie if Ceglar doesn't come through, but otherwise...

Neale is still 19, that's terribly young to be thrown into the ruck of all positions. Personally, we should have just given Fort a couple of years of taking the brunt of ruck work while Neale & Conway progressed.
Now we face the reality of having to shop around for another 27-28 yr old ruck to fill the shoes of Stanley and Ceglar who will both be cooked by the end of this season or next.

 

[Catman]

The one thing I don't want us to do now that we've invested in Toby Conway and Shannon Neale, is trade for a ruckman.

I could live with a Stef Martin cheapie if Ceglar doesn't come through, but otherwise...

Agreed. Rhys is arguably the best we currently have, and contracted to the end of 2023, as is Ceglar. That suggests there will probably be no interest in another ruckman and allow Conway and Neale to get a further two years of development under their belts.