The Otherworldly Circus - The America Thread

[Norm De Guerre]

Why end the thread? You can block people if you don't like what they are saying.

Blocking is for pussies.

Engagement is for amusement

 

[dogwatch]

With the Georgia recount confirming a Biden win it seems the Trump campaign is now pinning its last hope of stealing an election it lost by a significant margin on subverting the electoral college process.

The spate of quickly dismissed legal challenges are perhaps just a stalling process and a means of amplifying their unsubstantiated claim of election fraud. If they can sustain enough doubt and find enough corrupt Republican state legislators the aim will be to get those states to select their own (Pro-Trump) electors to the college and not the ones that are normally appointed in accordance with who won the popular vote in each state.

Do they truly believe it's fraud? If so, how can they not find any evidence? If not, do they understand what they are doing to their country?

It's the stuff of lightweight fiction but it's scary that this is actually what they seem to be trying to do. Hopefully - and logically - it will all fold pretty quickly but so much of the Trump incumbency has defied logic. If it just happens to get any genuine traction the USA is headed for some ugly confrontations in the courts, the legislatures, the media and the streets.

The following is one interpretation but even the correspondent who wrote it admits that it's hard to retain a grip on reality in today's USA.

Like the dye running down Rudy Giuliani's face, Trump's chances of snatching victory appear to be dissolving

In a world where falsehoods come from the top and are amplified louder and louder all the way down, we all need to focus on evidence, rather than unsubstantiated bluster. Because right now it's not just democracy in danger, but reality itself, writes North America bureau chief David Lipson.

www.abc.net.au

 

[jaxie1]

a few days ago I saw on U Tube a fellow whingeimg about the price and availability of bullets the cheaper going 17 cent to over a dollar each factory's a year behind a lot like toilet paper only messier

 

[D Mitchell]

.....The following is one interpretation but even the correspondent who wrote it admits that it's hard to retain a grip on reality in today's USA.

Like the dye running down Rudy Giuliani's face, Trump's chances of snatching victory appear to be dissolving

In a world where falsehoods come from the top and are amplified louder and louder all the way down, we all need to focus on evidence, rather than unsubstantiated bluster. Because right now it's not just democracy in danger, but reality itself, writes North America bureau chief David Lipson.

www.abc.net.au

David Lipson ABC in Washington, formerly of Lateline. The second sentence should be read carefully. In the 2019 Federal Election, around 16.7 mil voted. The process was conducted by one body, the AEC. In the US election, is was around 145 mil, 70 mil for trump, 75 mil for Biden. That's what's in the press anyway. That's conducted by 50 bodies. Not all use the same method of collecting and recording, I read that a number of states use a particular computerised system which has been criticised as being un reliable. Voting is not compulsory so there is an issue of identity uncertainty. By AEC standards, the US system lacks reliability. There is far greater capacity for irregularity, leaving aside allegations of fraud. The Trump camp alleges improper process, failure to properly scrutinise, as much as fraud. I'd want to see what the various Courts that are supposed to have dismissed Actions say rather than Press reports before I'd talk about there being no evidence of fraud. Allegations of fraud I've read about include multiple voting, misrecording of votes, dissuasion of voters, theft of ballots. Evidence to a standard required by a Court isn't going to be readily available, it might require examination of millions of ballots, reconciliation of recorded votes and ballots, examination of Rolls, possibly interviews with voters to ensure it was really that voter, examination of systems of counting and recording and so on. None of that evidence would be yet available. It isn't only whether there is or isn't fraud, it's dangerous to simply conclude that because the Press says that there is no evidence of fraud, there must not have been any.

 

[Chicago1]

I just saw part of Rudy's press conference. I am so embarrass.

 

[D Mitchell]

I just saw part of Rudy's press conference. I am so embarrass.

Don't be, Chicago, anyone can forget to add ed to the end of a verb.

 

[TempletonTheRat]

David Lipson ABC in Washington, formerly of Lateline. The second sentence should be read carefully. In the 2019 Federal Election, around 16.7 mil voted. The process was conducted by one body, the AEC. In the US election, is was around 145 mil, 70 mil for trump, 75 mil for Biden. That's what's in the press anyway. That's conducted by 50 bodies. Not all use the same method of collecting and recording, I read that a number of states use a particular computerised system which has been criticised as being un reliable. Voting is not compulsory so there is an issue of identity uncertainty. By AEC standards, the US system lacks reliability. There is far greater capacity for irregularity, leaving aside allegations of fraud. The Trump camp alleges improper process, failure to properly scrutinise, as much as fraud. I'd want to see what the various Courts that are supposed to have dismissed Actions say rather than Press reports before I'd talk about there being no evidence of fraud. Allegations of fraud I've read about include multiple voting, misrecording of votes, dissuasion of voters, theft of ballots. Evidence to a standard required by a Court isn't going to be readily available, it might require examination of millions of ballots, reconciliation of recorded votes and ballots, examination of Rolls, possibly interviews with voters to ensure it was really that voter, examination of systems of counting and recording and so on. None of that evidence would be yet available. It isn't only whether there is or isn't fraud, it's dangerous to simply conclude that because the Press says that there is no evidence of fraud, there must not have been any.

perhaps you should read the court documents and decisions first.

multiple accounts of Trumps lawyers admitting "this is not a fraud case"

Democracy Docket has them all listed

 

[Some Idiot]

Trump's getting dangerously close to Putin/Mugabe level by outright rejecting an election result.

 

[Fossie 32]

Blocking is for pussies.

Engagement is for amusement

Ending the thread is the ultimate disengagement??

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Whenever Im presenting a case in front of a magistrate, I always cite the griping courtroom drama 'My Cousin Vinny' as an example of my legal scholarliness.

Only the best people...

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Ending the thread is the ultimate disengagement??

Let it go Fossie. I suggested it may be time. I didn't demand it.

Im obviously still rolling around in its muck.

 

[Fossie 32]

Let it go Fossie. I suggested it may be time. I didn't demand it.

Im obviously still rolling around in its muck.

Sheesh thought I was having a reasonable discussion

 

[D Mitchell]

...
Democracy Docket has them all listed

Thankyou for the reference to Democracy Docket. I had a quick look. It has links to 2 cases, one a dispute in Congress, t'other in the Senate. No Trump cases. It styles itself as the leading platform for progressive advocacy and information about voting rights, elections, redistricting and democracy.. Its function is to advocate rather than inform. I'll have a closer look when I've got more time, there may be other cases extracted not immediately available.

If I was asserting that there was no evidence of fraud, I would read or try to read Court determinations, they are may be available on line. I'm content to await the final outcome before forming any opinion. It's no surprise if Trump's lawyers 'admit' that some cases are not fraud cases, as I understand it, some are about scruitineering, procedure rather than fraud.

 

[BEaston]

With the Georgia recount confirming a Biden win it seems the Trump campaign is now pinning its last hope of stealing an election it lost by a significant margin on subverting the electoral college process.

The spate of quickly dismissed legal challenges are perhaps just a stalling process and a means of amplifying their unsubstantiated claim of election fraud. If they can sustain enough doubt and find enough corrupt Republican state legislators the aim will be to get those states to select their own (Pro-Trump) electors to the college and not the ones that are normally appointed in accordance with who won the popular vote in each state.

Do they truly believe it's fraud? If so, how can they not find any evidence? If not, do they understand what they are doing to their country?

It's the stuff of lightweight fiction but it's scary that this is actually what they seem to be trying to do. Hopefully - and logically - it will all fold pretty quickly but so much of the Trump incumbency has defied logic. If it just happens to get any genuine traction the USA is headed for some ugly confrontations in the courts, the legislatures, the media and the streets.

The following is one interpretation but even the correspondent who wrote it admits that it's hard to retain a grip on reality in today's USA.

Like the dye running down Rudy Giuliani's face, Trump's chances of snatching victory appear to be dissolving

In a world where falsehoods come from the top and are amplified louder and louder all the way down, we all need to focus on evidence, rather than unsubstantiated bluster. Because right now it's not just democracy in danger, but reality itself, writes North America bureau chief David Lipson.

www.abc.net.au

They understand but they just don't care.

 

[Chicago1]

Don't be, Chicago, anyone can forget to add ed to the end of a verb.

That was written on purpose. Apparently you know nothing about Borat, old man. That's how he speaks. Sorry if it was over your head, kind of like Rudy's hair dye.

 

[D Mitchell]

That was written on purpose. Apparently you know nothing about Borat, old man. That's how he speaks. Sorry if it was over your head, kind of like Rudy's hair dye.

Consider meself slapped down and humiliated

 

[Chicago1]

Consider meself slapped down and humiliated

I keep forgetting that you are not as young as most of us on here.

I did use methinks in another thread today. I try to bridge the gap between the young and the old. I'm a bridgegapper(nonunion).

 

[Yojimbo]

Trump's getting dangerously close to Putin/Mugabe level by outright rejecting an election result.

Biden is still alive so no not quite at that level yet.

 

[Sharpiesadog]

Biden is still alive so no not quite at that level yet.

Perhaps he should avoid unknown people with umbrellas for a few weeks just in case.

 

[King Harold]

Have you heard the rumour that D Mitchell is another one of Scrag’s alt’s? Ingeniously invented to question the worth of a private school education?

Thankyou for the reference to Democracy Docket. I had a quick look. It has links to 2 cases, one a dispute in Congress, t'other in the Senate. No Trump cases. It styles itself as the leading platform for progressive advocacy and information about voting rights, elections, redistricting and democracy.. Its function is to advocate rather than inform. I'll have a closer look when I've got more time, there may be other cases extracted not immediately available.

If I was asserting that there was no evidence of fraud, I would read or try to read Court determinations, they are may be available on line. I'm content to await the final outcome before forming any opinion. It's no surprise if Trump's lawyers 'admit' that some cases are not fraud cases, as I understand it, some are about scruitineering, procedure rather than fraud.

You better tell Trump that , he has been screaming fraud with all his enablers even before the election.
Thats the point of their whole argument.
I have no idea what you are on about.

 

[lachy]

Pro Trump suppoters will provide nothing in what the orange man actually brings to the table other than Biden is bad.

I.would probably sit in the old GOP parameters. Trump has destroyed the Republican party and all it stands for. Hopefully the GOP can one day become the party it was as at the moment it will never be again

On SM-G975F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[TempletonTheRat]

Thankyou for the reference to Democracy Docket. I had a quick look. It has links to 2 cases, one a dispute in Congress, t'other in the Senate. No Trump cases.

Court Cases

Learn about the lawsuits that Democracy Docket is keeping an eye on.

www.democracydocket.com

 

[D Mitchell]

Pro Trump suppoters will provide nothing in what the orange man actually brings to the table other than Biden is bad.

I.would probably sit in the old GOP parameters. Trump has destroyed the Republican party and all it stands for. Hopefully the GOP can one day become the party it was as at the moment it will never be again

On SM-G975F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Sorry, Lachie, you don't fit at all. You live here, looks like your great grandfather missed the boat to America, too, you can't be a genuine Republican. You renounce the current Republican Nominee. That's not how political parties work. Never mind, though. Feel free to join us all at next Tuesday's meeting. It'll be a hoot.

 

[D Mitchell]

Court Cases

Learn about the lawsuits that Democracy Docket is keeping an eye on.

www.democracydocket.com

Thankyou for posting those links, TempletonTheRat

My information, from the President of the Club at the time, who has a background in horse racing, legs and ankles are important in horseracing,Templeton was never going to be as good at the Demons as he was with us, he'd developed bad ankles, spurs, so it turned out. Templeton and the President had discussed it. According to said President, Templeton was a decent bloke and loyal to the Club. I accept that. Unless you have better information, you might consider changing your user name, Kelvin is a Club great.

Your current post links to a number of other cases which presumably support your proposition that the cases show Trump's claims of fraud have been thrown out of US State Courts for lack of evidence. I've read the first. It's a copy of a Petition issued out of a Nevada Court by a Congressman, not Trump. You should at least read what you are posting. You can't expect me to trawl through a number of extracts that may have nothing to do with Trump and fraud, just like the one I've read and the 2 you referred to yesterday. Please let me know which you think are relevant and change your username.

 

[TempletonTheRat]

Unless you have better information, please change your username, it's a huge slur on a Club great.

quite a supposition you have made - perhaps that is par for the course

If you really want to know; the character from Charlotte's Web, Templeton the Rat was my link to becoming a Footscray supporter.