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Klyntonius

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So another year down, another disappointing season done and Griffin now on the hot seat.

His Plan A of improving defence bringing in a proven defense first coach, All NBA defence point guard and defensive anchor centre failed.

Fair play to them realising failure and having the balls to cut the cord and move on. But Plan B definitely had to work.

So, what is Plan B?
 

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Son of Skeletor

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Fair play to them realising failure and having the balls to cut the cord and move on. But Plan B definitely had to work.

So, what is Plan B?
Sorry, just saw this now.

I would love to see us make a serious run at Myles Turner for starters, problem is it's tough to make it work.

Griffin seems to love Steven Adams, but it's very tough to make things work with him and Zion together. And Indy probably wouldn't want to take Adams back in any trade, so barring a separate trade away for Adams (and presumably including Bledsoe in any Turner trade), best I can think of is something like:


Pels: Turner ($18 mil)

Hornets: Adams ($17 mil) + Trade Exception via Indy ($5 mil) + picks 35 & 43 via Pels

Pacers: Bridges (5.4 mil) + Cody Zeller sign and trade ($4/5 mil) + Milwaukee's 2025 1st via Pels


I think everything matches up salary wise if Indy used their Oladipo trade exception, and Charlotte signed and traded Zeller to Indy on a 3 year deal, not fully guaranteed.

Problem is that if I were the Hornets, I'd me more tempted to cut the Pels out altogether and negotiate with Indy for Turner. We've got more future excess picks to offer, but Charlotte could easily offer their own. So any such trade would be predicated on Turner actually wanting to join us.

Rationale is that Bridges has one year left on his rookie deal, is stuck behind Hayward and P.J. Washington in the rotation, and fits Indy's roster much better than Adams as a smallish 'four'. Zeller's an affordable back-up big who's decent when healthy and has ties to Indy. Charlotte meanwhile has a lot of depth at guard and the wings, but is deficient in terms of bigs. Possibly one of the few teams who would take Adams on, although that's a big if.

Just doing this one deal would help our defence and spacing, IMO.
 

Klyntonius

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I've warmed to a quiet off-season with reasonably minor moves only. Basically, for the most part, run it back.

I think after the season just been there are a tonne of teams believing they're that one big move away from contending which would mean we're competing with other for that big splash, or even a minor splash. And we have overpay for players already.

My expectation is - even with the current roster - if Willie Green is a competent coach and the relationship builder they say he is and can get the players to play and give effort for him (including Bledsoe) and especially if he can get Zion and Ingram to buy in on defence, plus expected improvement from the young players - NAW in particular - I think there's significant growth just in that alone.

The roster is obviously flawed so some change is required, perhaps orchestrated by a Lonzo sign-and-trade or let him walk and fill the gap with the opened cap space. Then, back themselves in to improve next season and wait with assets intact for the next trade deadline when invariably a team is failing and their star player becomes disgruntled and wants out (SGA or Fox* please) and strike.



* note: I like the Kings and don't really want them to fail but they continually do and I'd love Fox.
I don't particularly want OKC to fail either but they have their young stud player in SGA and they cop no heat for tanking whilst we get buried under an avalanche of media pulling for Zion to leave.
 

Klyntonius

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Moving back 7 spots in the draft to both open up cap space and rid ourselves of Bledsoe's lousy attitude doesn't seem too bad to me.

Looking at contracts, option B looks like it would open up space for option A.

If we also move on from Lonzo and Hart, do we know what we'll have available to spend?
 

Son of Skeletor

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Moving back 7 spots in the draft to both open up cap space and rid ourselves of Bledsoe's lousy attitude doesn't seem too bad to me.

Looking at contracts, option B looks like it would open up space for option A.

If we also move on from Lonzo and Hart, do we know what we'll have available to spend?
Well, it's done now. Bledsoe, Adams, #10, #40 and protected 2022 1st for Valanciunas and #17.

Gotta say, I'm not feeling it.

We forked out a first and two seconds for Adams, and are now sending out a further first and dropping down the order in this draft for Valanciunas and cap space.

Before the trade my back of the napkin maths had us at possibly around $33 million space, IF we renounced Lonzo and Hart's rights, and guessing on the salaries for the #10 pick and one second round pick, leaving us with a roster of 11. Now after the deal it's possible we have a tiny bit more space, ESPN are quoting $36 million. Again, that's only if we renounce RFA rights. If we don't renounce, we're about $16-17 million under the cap, so able to offer a 4/70 deal or something similar.

I hope they've got something special planned for free agency - personally don't see too much to be enthused about on offer, but we could still surprise - because if this is simply about locking up Lonzo and Hart on big contracts.... eeeeeh.

Not sure how I feel about Valanciunas' fit on this team, and really can't see how this fixes our defensive problems. So again, we have a lot of things to remedy with whatever cap space we're planning to spend on. We need wing stoppers, shooting, help at point guard and a defensive big. Hope Griffin has had his Weetbix in trying to cover all those contingencies purely via free agency.

Would have much preferred Myles Turner, if the price was right. As it is we've coughed up a lot of assets for a guy who may not even fit on our team, and cap space in a mediocre year for free agents. Watch this space I suppose.
 

2006_Eagles

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Having to waste assets to fix ridiculous moves in the past will always be infuriating. But I can live with this trade.

I reckon we'll sign Lowry, Ball and Hart and we'll trade 17 for a future 1st

We're also pretty heavily into Duncan Robinson, who I would prioritse over Ball
 

Klyntonius

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I like it.

It creates opportunity with some flexibility to really fill some holes that wasn't able to be done before. How big a success this trade is will depend on what comes next. I think we move on from Ball, either letting him walk or via a sign and trade (to Miami for Robinson?) and perhaps Lowry though I can see him being more of a smokescreen.
I really like Adams and wanted him to work in Nawlins but I think JV is an upgrade who fits better - certainly offensively. I like that he's vocal and a bit of a bastard too which we really lack.


I'll give Griffin credit for having a short memory and not dwelling on sunk cost and trying to make it work. I just hope he sticks to his mantra of trying to grow the team (relatively) organically for long term competitiveness and doesn't have false inspiration from the likes of the Suns and Hawks and go all in this off-season. Build a team good enough to make playoffs and good enough to convince Zion there's a future in New Orleans and leave flexibility for major upgrades down the track when they're ready to contend.
 

Son of Skeletor

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So it looks like Lowry is heading for Miami, which I'm actually glad about. He's a Miami-type signing, we shouldn't be going down that road. They're older than us, and they can always sign another free agent down the road - we can't.

Rest of the free agency pool doesn't excite me much. Wouldn't mind a look at Norman Powell, but would rather not throw silly money around.

Of all the Lonzo destinations, I reckon Indy by far makes the best potential trading partner. Brogdon strikes me as the right kind of guard to pair with Zion and Ingram, one who can do a bit of everything. If we could make it Brogdon + Myles Turner for Lonzo and Valanciunas, I'd be in heaven.

Boston, I'm not sure I could stomach watching Marcus Smart flop around like a fish for us. Chicago - I don't think Markannen is what we need, particularly when we'd have to pay him. Toronto, I'd assume Siakam/Anunoby/VanVleet would all be off the table, so meh.

Barring the aforementioned Indy hypothetical, I think I'd rather just keep Lonzo around if we can get him for $20 mil per or less. Don't really see many other avenues to spending our newfound cap space.
 

Klyntonius

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I'm pretty content with the free-agency/trade period we've had so far. It hasn't been the sexy moves to see them launch into title contention but that was never realistic. I think they're undoubtedly better and for little cost.

To come out with:

- flexibility
- Adams upgraded
- Bledsoe upgraded
- no bad contracts
- no bad overpays

I think is about all we could really ask for. I also think there's still the possibility/likelihood of further moves to come.

Even as is, New Orleans should be playoff competitive, assuming further player development and Green is a competent coach. Short of landing another star player, no matter the changes made, this team will only get as far as Ingram and Zion can carry them and if they don't fully buy in, especially on defence, well, let's not think about the consequences.
 

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Son of Skeletor

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I'm pretty content with the free-agency/trade period we've had so far. It hasn't been the sexy moves to see them launch into title contention but that was never realistic. I think they're undoubtedly better and for little cost.

To come out with:

- flexibility
- Adams upgraded
- Bledsoe upgraded
- no bad contracts
- no bad overpays

I think is about all we could really ask for. I also think there's still the possibility/likelihood of further moves to come.

Even as is, New Orleans should be playoff competitive, assuming further player development and Green is a competent coach. Short of landing another star player, no matter the changes made, this team will only get as far as Ingram and Zion can carry them and if they don't fully buy in, especially on defence, well, let's not think about the consequences.
You're more optimistic than me, mate.

By my count we traded three first round picks, plus a pick slide (10 to 17), plus pick 40 to turn Jrue into Devonte Graham + one year of Steven Adams plus one year of Valanciunas. In short, we essentially traded away all the draft capital we got from the Jrue trade in the first place, making the trade Jrue Holiday for Devonte Graham plus Valanciunas on an expiring contract. That's appalling asset management.

If we actually lose more picks owing to 'tampering' via trading Lonzo for freaking Satoransky, I think I'll vomit.

I actually like Devonte Graham (see below). I didn't mind our actual draft, based on limited knowledge. I don't actually mind any of Valanciunas, Temple or Satoransky as players. It's just that I don't see any long term planning going on here.

Maybe we'll find a way to work Buddy Hield or Markannen into the TPE, although knowing us we'll chuck in yet more draft compensation. It seems like we may have finally grasped the importance of outside shooting. Defence? Not so much.

As I said back when the Memphis trade was made, we picked a very weird time to clear out cap room. As it happens pretty sure we could easily have fit Graham into our pre-existing cap room without making the trade, or even renouncing Lonzo's rights. Still dominoes to fall, so hopefully we get better news.

This, I do like however:

2020/21

Graham1.png



2019/20

Graham2.png
 

Klyntonius

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By my count we traded three first round picks, plus a pick slide (10 to 17), plus pick 40 to turn Jrue into Devonte Graham + one year of Steven Adams plus one year of Valanciunas. In short, we essentially traded away all the draft capital we got from the Jrue trade in the first place, making the trade Jrue Holiday for Devonte Graham plus Valanciunas on an expiring contract. That's appalling asset management.
Not quite but it certainly hasn't worked out as hoped. From what I understand (likely inaccuracies):

From the Jrue trade:
- we handed off Hill and a Denver pick to get Adams
- we no longer have Adams or Bledsoe
- we still have Milwaukee's '25 and '27 first round picks and '24 and '26 first round pick swaps

From the AD trade:
- we trade pick 4 for picks 8 and 17
- we trade Lakers '22 first
- we sign and trade Lonzo
- we still have BI, Graham, Satoransky, Temple, Chicago future second round pick, '23 pick swap, '24 (maybe deferred to '25) first round pick
- Josh Hart may or may not remain

The bail out first to Memphis is our own lottery protected first round pick. If it doesn't convey they get two second rounders instead.
As far as I'm aware (and I'm not terribly aware), Nawlins owns all their other future draft picks.

So whilst it's been a bit convoluted and wasteful, it's not all doom and gloom. Yet.


If we actually lose more picks owing to 'tampering' via trading Lonzo for freaking Satoransky, I think I'll vomit.
Need to start training up the players to do the negotiations.


I actually like Devonte Graham (see below). I didn't mind our actual draft, based on limited knowledge. I don't actually mind any of Valanciunas, Temple or Satoransky as players. It's just that I don't see any long term planning going on here.
I think mainly their long term planning is in Zion, BI, NAW, Jax*, Kira, Didi, Trey and Herb.

In terms of how particularly JV (who I think will get extended) and Graham fit into long term planning - it's to make the Pelicans immediately competitive enough to convince Zion there's the possibility of future success in New Orleans and encourage him to sign on. Satoransky is likely mostly an asset for a future trade.

*Obviously the Jax part of that planning is a little in the air at the moment. That part ain't on Griff.


You're more optimistic than me, mate.
I need to be optimistic to be honest. I follow an irrelevant football club that's flagless for 57 years, an NFL team that will forever be the biggest joke in the league after losing the unlosable Superbowl in a record never to ever be beaten and a NBA franchise with a history of consistent failure and constant talk of relocation.
If - as the current widespread narrative suggests - the Pelicans still can't make a go of things now despite everything they have going for them, and they lose their third successive transcendent talent in a row (especially only 3 years in), I'm gonna have to walk. It's completely pointless.
 

Son of Skeletor

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Not quite but it certainly hasn't worked out as hoped. From what I understand (likely inaccuracies):

From the Jrue trade:
- we handed off Hill and a Denver pick to get Adams
- we no longer have Adams or Bledsoe
- we still have Milwaukee's '25 and '27 first round picks and '24 and '26 first round pick swaps

From the AD trade:
- we trade pick 4 for picks 8 and 17
- we trade Lakers '22 first
- we sign and trade Lonzo
- we still have BI, Graham, Satoransky, Temple, Chicago future second round pick, '23 pick swap, '24 (maybe deferred to '25) first round pick
- Josh Hart may or may not remain

The bail out first to Memphis is our own lottery protected first round pick. If it doesn't convey they get two second rounders instead.
As far as I'm aware (and I'm not terribly aware), Nawlins owns all their other future draft picks.

So whilst it's been a bit convoluted and wasteful, it's not all doom and gloom. Yet.

The way I see it, we got Bledsoe, Hill, 2020's pick #23, Bucks' 2025 & 2027 firsts and 2024 & 2026 pick swaps for Jrue.

We traded that 2020 pick #23 (ended up being RJ Hampton) and two second round picks with Hill to OKC for Adams.

We traded the Lakers' 2022 first round pick, and had a pick slide (10 to 17), plus effectively a second round pick (slide 40 to 51, which was then sold) to dump Bled and Adams for Valanciunas and cap space.

And then we traded our own 2022 first to Charlotte for Graham to make use of the cap space we opened up.


So that's three first round picks (2020 + 2 X 2022), three second round picks and one pick swap out, and three first round picks and two pick swaps in. So we've actually traded out MORE than the Jrue draft compensation thus far on paper. Of course those Bucks picks in the future may end up technically being better than the ones we traded out, but who knows.

Basically we traded Jrue for Graham and Valanciunas' expiring contract. Three firsts in, three firsts and three seconds out. The pick protection on our pick going to Charlotte (not Memphis, they get the Lakers' pick) is a minor blessing, but still hard to believe we had to even do that when DeRozan and Lonzo among others only garnered second round picks as free agents.

It's pretty ugly.


I think mainly their long term planning is in Zion, BI, NAW, Jax*, Kira, Didi, Trey and Herb.

In terms of how particularly JV (who I think will get extended) and Graham fit into long term planning - it's to make the Pelicans immediately competitive enough to convince Zion there's the possibility of future success in New Orleans and encourage him to sign on. Satoransky is likely mostly an asset for a future trade.

*Obviously the Jax part of that planning is a little in the air at the moment. That part ain't on Griff.
Problem is we're always chopping and changing.

Zion's first year, we decided to try and compete, so kept Jrue and Gentry around and signed Favors and JJ Redick. Could argue it was worth a shot, but didn't work out.

Next year we hire SVG and basically do the same thing all over again, only this time with Adams and Bled in place of Favors and Jrue. Not surprisingly it didn't work, again.

This year we seem to be in the business of correcting mistakes, whether that's paying for coaching payoffs by selling second round picks, or paying out more picks to get rid of Bled and Adams. It's good we're not following sunk cost, but the overall impression of the last three years is that we haven't been following any sort of a plan.

That has even extended to Lonzo and Hart's tenures with the team - did we want those guys, or not? And if not, why didn't we try and trade them a year ago, if not before? It always seems like we're having a bet each way, consistently indecisive.


I need to be optimistic to be honest. I follow an irrelevant football club that's flagless for 57 years, an NFL team that will forever be the biggest joke in the league after losing the unlosable Superbowl in a record never to ever be beaten and a NBA franchise with a history of consistent failure and constant talk of relocation.
If - as the current widespread narrative suggests - the Pelicans still can't make a go of things now despite everything they have going for them, and they lose their third successive transcendent talent in a row (especially only 3 years in), I'm gonna have to walk. It's completely pointless.
Haha chin up, Dees 2021 >>> Pies 2021.
 

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The way I see it, we got Bledsoe, Hill, 2020's pick #23, Bucks' 2025 & 2027 firsts and 2024 & 2026 pick swaps for Jrue.

We traded that 2020 pick #23 (ended up being RJ Hampton) and two second round picks with Hill to OKC for Adams.

We traded the Lakers' 2022 first round pick, and had a pick slide (10 to 17), plus effectively a second round pick (slide 40 to 51, which was then sold) to dump Bled and Adams for Valanciunas and cap space.

And then we traded our own 2022 first to Charlotte for Graham to make use of the cap space we opened up.


So that's three first round picks (2020 + 2 X 2022), three second round picks and one pick swap out, and three first round picks and two pick swaps in. So we've actually traded out MORE than the Jrue draft compensation thus far on paper. Of course those Bucks picks in the future may end up technically being better than the ones we traded out, but who knows.

Basically we traded Jrue for Graham and Valanciunas' expiring contract. Three firsts in, three firsts and three seconds out. The pick protection on our pick going to Charlotte (not Memphis, they get the Lakers' pick) is a minor blessing, but still hard to believe we had to even do that when DeRozan and Lonzo among others only garnered second round picks as free agents.

It's pretty ugly.




Problem is we're always chopping and changing.

Zion's first year, we decided to try and compete, so kept Jrue and Gentry around and signed Favors and JJ Redick. Could argue it was worth a shot, but didn't work out.

Next year we hire SVG and basically do the same thing all over again, only this time with Adams and Bled in place of Favors and Jrue. Not surprisingly it didn't work, again.

This year we seem to be in the business of correcting mistakes, whether that's paying for coaching payoffs by selling second round picks, or paying out more picks to get rid of Bled and Adams. It's good we're not following sunk cost, but the overall impression of the last three years is that we haven't been following any sort of a plan.

That has even extended to Lonzo and Hart's tenures with the team - did we want those guys, or not? And if not, why didn't we try and trade them a year ago, if not before? It always seems like we're having a bet each way, consistently indecisive.




Haha chin up, Dees 2021 >>> Pies 2021.
Forget all that, we got Trey Murphy who'll be the steal of the draft. Add NAW - who'll be the biggest improver in the league next year - to that, and it's Lonzo who?
 

Klyntonius

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Problem is we're always chopping and changing.

Zion's first year, we decided to try and compete, so kept Jrue and Gentry around and signed Favors and JJ Redick. Could argue it was worth a shot, but didn't work out.

Next year we hire SVG and basically do the same thing all over again, only this time with Adams and Bled in place of Favors and Jrue. Not surprisingly it didn't work, again.

This year we seem to be in the business of correcting mistakes, whether that's paying for coaching payoffs by selling second round picks, or paying out more picks to get rid of Bled and Adams. It's good we're not following sunk cost, but the overall impression of the last three years is that we haven't been following any sort of a plan.

That has even extended to Lonzo and Hart's tenures with the team - did we want those guys, or not? And if not, why didn't we try and trade them a year ago, if not before? It always seems like we're having a bet each way, consistently indecisive.
I think it's less indecisive and more just wrong decisions.

To me at least they look like they always planned to build a young core to be surrounded with complimentary veterans.

They've consistently hit the draft to load up on young talent in the Griffin regime - all the guys I mentioned bar Ingram being drafted in that time - but they've completely missed on getting the mix of vets right.

My understanding is that Gentry was more of an ownership choice as reward for his handling of the previous year with the AD situation.
SVG I understand the thinking behind the appointment but obviously failed (aside from point Zion and moving Lonzo off ball).

Fingers crossed third time's a charm and Green is the guy that can inspire them to reach their potential.


Haha chin up, Dees 2021 >>> Pies 2021.
Uh, encouraging?
 

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I think it's less indecisive and more just wrong decisions.

To me at least they look like they always planned to build a young core to be surrounded with complimentary veterans.

They've consistently hit the draft to load up on young talent in the Griffin regime - all the guys I mentioned bar Ingram being drafted in that time - but they've completely missed on getting the mix of vets right.
Yeah I've got no beef with the drafting, although the jury's still really out on everyone bar Zion. Murphy seemed like the right pick this year, as called by nahnah .

Also have no argument with the quality of people they've brought in too, mostly good teammates and pros. It's still really odd that they saw what happened with Favors as the big next to Zion, and then shrunk the court even more with Adams. It seemed more like Griffin had always liked Adams, saw an opportunity to get him, but had cognitive dissonance about how he and Zion would ever play together. Oh well.

What does trouble me is that we've really eaten into our chest of assets just chasing our tails for two years. We're not the Lakers, we can't afford to just be trading picks away for nothing, and hoping to score big in free agency. If we've drafted well, that means we've thrown away chances to draft well in the future.

Maybe Griffin has something up his sleeve with Josh Hart. Otherwise it was a curious decision to just let he and Lonzo hit RFA. I get all the cap-enomics and wanting to operate as an over-the-cap team and all the rest of it, but still. We've had a very weird off-season, don't think anyone can deny that now.

My understanding is that Gentry was more of an ownership choice as reward for his handling of the previous year with the AD situation.
SVG I understand the thinking behind the appointment but obviously failed (aside from point Zion and moving Lonzo off ball).

Fingers crossed third time's a charm and Green is the guy that can inspire them to reach their potential.
I'd just love to see a team without apathy. Play some defence, actually look like you care when you lose.

Hopefully top of the list is scrapping SVG's ''let's see how many open three pointers we can give up in one game... and then try to break that record!" D.

Uh, encouraging?
Damning with faint praise, I know.

However compare where we were 10 years ago with where you guys were then, and look at you now. Nobody would have believed that we'd become the rabble, lol.
 

Klyntonius

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Yeah I've got no beef with the drafting, although the jury's still really out on everyone bar Zion. Murphy seemed like the right pick this year, as called by @nahnah .

Also have no argument with the quality of people they've brought in too, mostly good teammates and pros. It's still really odd that they saw what happened with Favors as the big next to Zion, and then shrunk the court even more with Adams. It seemed more like Griffin had always liked Adams, saw an opportunity to get him, but had cognitive dissonance about how he and Zion would ever play together. Oh well.

What does trouble me is that we've really eaten into our chest of assets just chasing our tails for two years. We're not the Lakers, we can't afford to just be trading picks away for nothing, and hoping to score big in free agency. If we've drafted well, that means we've thrown away chances to draft well in the future.

Maybe Griffin has something up his sleeve with Josh Hart. Otherwise it was a curious decision to just let he and Lonzo hit RFA. I get all the cap-enomics and wanting to operate as an over-the-cap team and all the rest of it, but still. We've had a very weird off-season, don't think anyone can deny that now.
Yes certainly it will be wait and see on what level the draftees come to. If half of them can rise to at least competent rotation level players (and they've shown enough to suggest that's possible if not likely) then I think that's enough given we they already have their two young all-star level players in place.

I'm not as down on the Adams and Zion fit. New Orleans had no issue with scoring and I'd really have been content to hang onto the big kiwi. That said, JV is still certainly a better fit.

You're absolutely right that burning through assets to make a wrong decision and then using more capital to correct those mistakes has not been the ideal path to take, nor - obviously - the path they planned to take. That said, the saving grace is it has been the least valuable of the assets available that were given up and it's still a better option than doubling down on mistakes made hoping they'll come good.
The good thing about where New Orleans are currently placed is there are still a strong amount of draft capital left plus nice contracts left to be used should any trade options come available in the future. They're not weighed down by any Omer Asik or Solo Hill dead weight contracts.

Hart ended up with his nice pay increase on a contract that has apparently great flexibility going forward for both parties. Lonzo didn't want to stay in Nawlins - at least with the role and vision they had for him - so better to cut ties and get something for him than double down and end up with another Eric Gordon situation.


I'd just love to see a team without apathy. Play some defence, actually look like you care when you lose.

Hopefully top of the list is scrapping SVG's ''let's see how many open three pointers we can give up in one game... and then try to break that record!" D.
I only got to see some of the last game but most of the reports from the Summer League were that the player efforts were high (which should be a given seeing as they're all young blokes trying to prove themselves) and most importantly had a heavy focus on defence that they apparently bought into. Fingers crossed it's a good sign for the future.


Damning with faint praise, I know.

However compare where we were 10 years ago with where you guys were then, and look at you now. Nobody would have believed that we'd become the rabble, lol.
The Dees are finally where they should be after making it to a prelim 3 years ago.
Probably will bomb out in the finals and then Oliver will ask for a trade mid-season next year. We all know that story. :tearsofjoy:
 

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