The Pokie Debate - My Personal View

[Coledinho]

Do all these naysayers also care to explain why pokie machines are still based upon 1970's technology? We have flat screens, IPads etc but our billion dollar pokie machine industry is still using technology (mainly graphics and the software system used to create them etc) from the 1970's with the only change being in color resolution and clearness (as opposed to graphics etc).

If its not addictive why hasnt there been a push to keep the graphics of the game in line with the video gaming community (also addictive but not in a trance style)

 

[davis_756]

Read the link on this page from checkraiseulite. One of the mathemiticians behind pokies admits exactly what I'm claiming.

Then read Coledinho's post about the links between depression and addiction. Then apologise for being so ignorant.

Ignorance is one of the most harmful vices in this country, moreso even than poker machines.

If your holding out some belief that these people who become addicted to gambling would simply have normal lives without the machines existence then you are the ignorant one.

People like you blame everyone else and refuse to put any of the blame onto yourself, its time to grow up and start accepting some of the responsibility.

 

[Coledinho]

If your holding out some belief that these people who become addicted to gambling would simply have normal lives without the machines existence then you are the ignorant one.

People like you blame everyone else and refuse to put any of the blame onto yourself, its time to grow up and start accepting some of the responsibility.

Its not addiction to gambling, its addiction to pokies. They are two completely seperate things altogether. Addiction to gambling involves a decision making process beyond the intent to play. They are categorised differently because the decision making process that leads to one or another are so far different its not funny. May aswell compare a pokie addict to a heroin addict. More closely linked then a gambling addict to a pokie addict

Isnt the basis of the pokie reform about accepting responsibility? You have completely ignored the point of this thread in that comment. Here we are trying to give a person personal responsibility for there gambling and your saying its poor legislation, yet in this very post your saying we need gamblers to accept responsibility? Pick a story and stick to it man

We need to give gamblers personal responsibility for there actions by releasing the restrictions on self exclusion. Just like the US have. Thats all anyone here is arguing. We arnt the ones saying they need to accept responsibility but in the next sentence saying laws to promote that very theory are unnecessary and pointless

 

[checkraiseulite]

If your holding out some belief that these people who become addicted to gambling would simply have normal lives without the machines existence then you are the ignorant one.

People like you blame everyone else and refuse to put any of the blame onto yourself, its time to grow up and start accepting some of the responsibility.

There are plenty of freely available anecdotes of seemingly normal people with normal jobs/lives who started out as casual players who descended into pokies addiction and had their lives (and the lives of their families) seriously impacted.

A day in the life of a pokies addict:
http://pokiescausepain.pokieact.org/2009/05/i-was-once-pokies-addict.html

I also think you need to differentiate between 'pokies addicts' and 'gambling addicts'. IMO their addictions are quite different.

 

[LouisCK]

If your holding out some belief that these people who become addicted to gambling would simply have normal lives without the machines existence then you are the ignorant one.

People like you blame everyone else and refuse to put any of the blame onto yourself, its time to grow up and start accepting some of the responsibility.

If you were capable of any kind of reasoned thought, you'd understand my point is that its a fundamentally evil industry that derives a major part of its profit from preying on the mentally ill.

No different to a brothel that only hires disabled hookers. You'd say something like that was evil because it preys on people who have some sort of lack of control over their situation. Well, the pokies are actually worse, because the pokies actually CREATE addicts (again read the link).

People like me? What? Educated, intelligent people who actually research issues instead of merely spouting cliche Andrew Bolt lines?

Grow up.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

They are the purest form of positive reinforcement through operant conditioning. So much R&D money goes into these machines to make them addictive like this.

I have been led to believe that included in that R & D money is money for Psychologists who have input into the programmng.

 

[captain blood 17]

CBN you know my stance on this from a thread on the Tiger board, and i support you all the way on this.

 

[davis_756]

If you were capable of any kind of reasoned thought, you'd understand my point is that its a fundamentally evil industry that derives a major part of its profit from preying on the mentally ill.

No different to a brothel that only hires disabled hookers. You'd say something like that was evil because it preys on people who have some sort of lack of control over their situation. Well, the pokies are actually worse, because the pokies actually CREATE addicts (again read the link).

People like me? What? Educated, intelligent people who actually research issues instead of merely spouting cliche Andrew Bolt lines?

Grow up.

Are we talking about the pokies here or religion? You have accurately described the latter more so then the former.

Your whole big solution to this is a waste of time, putting a cap on each venue/machine solves nothing. These people will simply resort to other forms of escape, they will more then likely just walk to the next room and start throwing their hard earned on some form of betting or simply move on to the next venue.

These people think i'll put another $5 in and win it all back, they are no different to a desperate punter resorting to a 100-1 shot at the end of the day in the hopes of winning back what they lost.

Regardless how are pokies any worse then traveling tradesmen or salesmen who all deliberately attempt to bullshit their way into your pockets, the machines don't talk.

 

[LouisCK]

You are really struggling with that post. To the point of embarrassment.

 

[checkraiseulite]

From my link above:

How well I understand the junkie. This nothingness was my addiction. Not the money. Not the thrill or excitement of the win. Not even the momentary relief of getting back what I has already spent. No – my addiction was to the mental and emotional stillness that came in the seemingly endless moments between one button push and the next. No questions….no demands….no self criticism….just me and a machines and….silence…..until I’d run out of money and had to leave. Then I would start to hate myself.

Reading such things (that the cause of problem gambling was always internal stimulus rather than external) confused me. I had no difficulty controlling my gambling before coming into contact with poker machines at the age of 40 - this despite having gambled “responsibly” since I was 18.

No one there (at counselling sesssions for problem gamblers) could tell me why I did what I did or what I needed to do to stop, but it was here amongst a group of people who labelled themselves ‘compulsive gamblers’ that I finally discovered that I was not alone in having done what I did. I also discovered that like me, many people had no trouble controlling their gambling until they began playing gaming machines…that once they did start playing them, their decline into uncontrolled gambling was as rapid and devastating in its impact on their lives and those of their families as mine had been.

Thus ended my foray into individual pathology that was deemed to cause people to become problem gamblers. Thus began my search for information about gaming machines and what it was about them that addicted or entrapped so many, so rapidly… What I have since discovered about gambling machines – they way they are designed, promoted and presented to governments and an unsuspecting public around the globe - is beyond frightening. The effort state governments put into minimising the depth and extent of problem gambling after they have legalised this one gambling product and permitted its widespread distribution through the communities they govern, borders on the criminal.

Today I know that while I chose to gamble on the pokies, I had no idea that in making that choice, I was opening myself up to a cognitive and behaviourally manipulative machine – one that is purpose designed to entrap ANY regular user of it in a downward spiral of financial, emotional and psychological despair. Today, I understand the why of my “gambling addiction” and I aim to rid the world of the cause.

 

[ThatsjustDappa]

Are we talking about the pokies here or religion? You have accurately described the latter more so then the former.

Your whole big solution to this is a waste of time, putting a cap on each venue/machine solves nothing. These people will simply resort to other forms of escape, they will more then likely just walk to the next room and start throwing their hard earned on some form of betting or simply move on to the next venue.

Can you reference any research into why it will solve nothing?

At the moment there is a Productivity Commission report that recommends mandatory pre-commitment......Haven't heard f***k all of any research on why it won't solve anything....

 

[pazza]

I don't mind a punt - usually on the horses. I might chuck a $1 in a pokie very occasionally.

To me, I don't see why in today's day and age, sporting clubs need to have as part of their revenue stream. With memberships, sponsorship and merchandise sales drawing so much money in and coterie groups and social committees contributing - it would seem the pokie machine is a needless add-on.

To say that all clubs will be affected by the proposed change is an utter nonsense. North Melbourne and the WA clubs function quite adequately without them. Other clubs, particularly Essendon, whilst having them, don't rely on them for revenue - instead directing that revenue into the social side of the business and funding other aspects of the club (Essendon's way is to have the pokies in what is known as the Essendon Football Community and Sporting Club, which incorporates the cricket, softball, hockey, athletics, croquet and lawn bowls clubs, along with the Windy Hill Fitness Centre, the Windy Hill Social Club and Melton Country Club instead of just the football club on its own).

 

[davis_756]

Can you reference any research into why it will solve nothing?

At the moment there is a Productivity Commission report that recommends mandatory pre-commitment......Haven't heard f***k all of any research on why it won't solve anything....

When there is an objective they don't do the report the other way, there is a big report on how much water is needed to keep our rivers healthy but you won't find one that tells everyone that the price of lamb, beef & pork will go up to prices around $100 a KG.

You will be living off some Chinese water hen in a few short years from now thanks to the greens party and minority groups.

People on here campaigning for pokies to be cut down should realise how much money the government gains through this industry, if they impose the cap they will have to tax the average person more to make up the difference.

In essence your asking for another welfare system to be created so you don't have to feel bad about a few kids ending up in homeless shelters. Do you really want to pay more for other peoples mistakes in life?

I personally don't care what they do cap or no cap, my only gripe is the constant barrage of minority groups carrying on like children until they get their way. Personally can't see it happening, they money alone is enough for the government to ignore them on this subject.

 

[checkraiseulite]

I personally don't care what they do cap or no cap, my only gripe is the constant barrage of minority groups carrying on like children until they get their way. Personally can't see it happening, they money alone is enough for the government to ignore them on this subject.

I think this would be more aptly applied to the lobby groups who have massive vested interests in the issue.

Ask yourself, what has Andrew Wilkie/Nick Xenephon (who I generally disagree with) got to gain from precommitment? Then ask yourself what have pokies barons and clubs got to lose? Who is more to be telling the truth when commenting on whether the proposed precomittment scheme will work or not?

You are also ignoring the significant economic and social costs that flow from epidemic levels of pokies addiction. You are also asserting that our tax system relies heavily on pokies revenue? Isn't that worrying enough?

 

[LouisCK]

When there is an objective they don't do the report the other way, there is a big report on how much water is needed to keep our rivers healthy but you won't find one that tells everyone that the price of lamb, beef & pork will go up to prices around $100 a KG.

You will be living off some Chinese water hen in a few short years from now thanks to the greens party and minority groups.

People on here campaigning for pokies to be cut down should realise how much money the government gains through this industry, if they impose the cap they will have to tax the average person more to make up the difference.

In essence your asking for another welfare system to be created so you don't have to feel bad about a few kids ending up in homeless shelters. Do you really want to pay more for other peoples mistakes in life?

I personally don't care what they do cap or no cap, my only gripe is the constant barrage of minority groups carrying on like children until they get their way. Personally can't see it happening, they money alone is enough for the government to ignore them on this subject.

We don't need to tax the average person more at all.

We need to tax the wealthiest people a little bit more.

 

[Kwality]

Wilkie meets the Feds on Jan 15, May 2012 deadline rolling towards those reliant on pokies revenue.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...okie-reform-laws/story-fn59niix-1226237820807

Hows your club looking?

 

[Eddie Dingle]

We don't need to tax the average person more at all.

We need to tax the wealthiest people a little bit more.

Ahhh the Socialist doctrine...

 

[newcastlefalcon]

It's a little strange for me to get personal on bigfooty, but I will just to get my point across very clearly.

My parents are addicted to the pokies, I'm 21 and It's frustrated me since I was a kid.
............
So to all the clubs from both codes, go **** yourselves and find a more dignified way to earn a buck, god help us you all already earn enough as it is, kill the greed.

CNB1990 a truly great post and really well said.

The pokie reforms are not a solution to everyones woes but they are a step in the right direction. They do not make pokies illegal but they do try and limit the potential losses for problem gamblers.

I think you are also correct about the seductive design of the lighting and sounds of these places. Although I live in Queensland, one of the best places that I have visited is Beechworth in Victoria where the town has chosen not to have pokies in their town. There is a fundamentally different atmosphere when you go out for a meal or a drink without the pokies.

 

[telsor]

The pokie reforms are not a solution to everyones woes but they are a step in the right direction. They do not make pokies illegal but they do try and limit the potential losses for problem gamblers.

I think one of the biggest problems is that governments are addicted to the revenue, so I think ( hope) that every step that reduces that revenue is a step towards their elimination.

 

[sammm]

Great OP.

I was raised in NSW, just over the Murray and used to see the Victorians come up all the time on the pokie tours. I've played them a few times but they don't do much for me. Biggest win $60, biggest spend in one night, $50.

I have seen first hand evidence of people who can't control their compulsion but I still believe that the proposal to set a maximum spend is only going to help the minority who know they have a problem and are trying to cut down. It's a fair impost for a small percentage. I assume the proposal doesn't link directly to your bank accounts so if I want to say my max spend each night is $1,000,000 and I only have $400 in my account, whats stopping me from blowing my rent money?

The way gambling is foisted on us these days is ridiculous, but I don't think this initiative is viable.

I know someone who had a problem for a while and could not stop untilhe realised that he below his pay in one hour plying pokies. he then went to Gamblers anonymous for a long time. The guy still has to be careful. he can't walk into a gambling venue without wanting to play the pokies.

It is an insidious problem.

 

[Eddie Dingle]

I know someone who had a problem for a while and could not stop untilhe realised that he below his pay in one hour plying pokies. he then went to Gamblers anonymous for a long time. The guy still has to be careful. he can't walk into a gambling venue without wanting to play the pokies.

It is an insidious problem.

sammm,

That's a great positive story of someone helping themselves through counselling and self action. I would be interested in hearing your friends thoughts on Mandatory Pre-Committment as most recovered addicts believe this scheme of only gambling a little bit wont work but Gamblers Anonymous and other counselling services are the way to go. Including the recovered addict on 4 Corners the night the Wilkie story was featured.

 

[LouisCK]

Ahhh the Socialist doctrine...

Yep Democratic Socialism is the way to go.

We've seen what free market thinking gets us when people parrot on about 'personal responsiblity' too much.

HINT: There was this minor global financial crisis...

 

[Eddie Dingle]

Yep Democratic Socialism is the way to go.

We've seen what free market thinking gets us when people parrot on about 'personal responsiblity' too much.

HINT: There was this minor global financial crisis...

I hope the Red Headed monster puppet makes all your dreams come true...

 

[Kwality]

Yep Democratic Socialism is the way to go.

We've seen what free market thinking gets us when people parrot on about 'personal responsiblity' too much.

HINT: There was this minor global financial crisis...

Stuff your doctrine, common sense is the middle ground, if you need a doctrine maybe you just need to put your hand up for a bit of help.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

pokies provide 300,000 jobs directly from thier revenue, not to mention indirect jobs such as bistro's, bottleshops etc.

the tax from them nearly completely funds the welfare system

people may not like them, but to get on a moral high ground as a result is a bit much

does anyone know what the effect could be if they weren't around?

just because people don't spend it there, doesnt mean they will elsewhere

better support is necessary for problem gamblers, such as mandatory exclusion if identified by a venue, but elimination of the machines could potentially send the country into a depression, which the result could be a lot worse!