The positives thread

[Last of the Roys]

Lions boast most debuts.

That is a pretty striking story of how reliant we've been on kids (who have certainly held their own), and yet we've still found a way to be competitive recently. While the season has been far from ideal in some ways, there are a lot of reasons to be bullish about our on field prospects.

That table is very striking.

Lions = 72 games from debutants
Next best = 37 games from debutants (Essendon and the Gold Coast)

 

[Hollow Knight]

That table is very striking.

Lions = 72 games from debutants
Next best = 37 games from debutants (Essendon and the Gold Coast)

Just further adds to the "St Kilda... World of pain" scenario doesn't it...

 

[whatboutbob]

Just further adds to the "St Kilda... World of pain" scenario doesn't it...

Carlton's position on that ladder surprised me.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Carlton's position on that ladder surprised me.

Shit yeah. Ouch.

Saw someone on the Carlton board the other day saying along the lines of "geez it pisses me off when people say we don't have good youth".

Heh.

 

[Kevvo]

I reckon would be a worthwhile exercise to repeat this but with, say, first and second year players. I suspect it might make the picture even more dramatic from our perspective and mitigate the peculiarities of a single cohort of draftees.

Last of the Roys 's inexperience watch does an excellent job of this game to game, but it would be interesting to see the picture over a full season across all clubs.

 

[KissKiss]

I reckon would be a worthwhile exercise to repeat this but with, say, first and second year players. I suspect it might make the picture even more dramatic from our perspective and mitigate the peculiarities of a single cohort of draftees.

Last of the Roys 's inexperience watch does an excellent job of this game to game, but it would be interesting to see the picture over a full season across all clubs.

Yeah I know that Freo supporters are always disputing the lack of debutants they have had by stating that they have a lot of guys who played ~one game last season playing a few this year or something along those lines.

Last of Roys breakdown is really good

 

[whatboutbob]

Yeah I know that Freo supporters are always disputing the lack of debutants they have had by stating that they have a lot of guys who played ~one game last season playing a few this year or something along those lines.

Last of Roys breakdown is really good

It'd also be interesting to see a similar table for our premiership years. Gut (and very rusty memory) says we had very few debutante games over that period, similar to Freo this year (and Lyon-led St Kilda before them, I'm guessing).

 

[SizeMatters]

Highest number of debutantes shouldn't really be seen as a positive.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Highest number of debutantes shouldn't really be seen as a positive.

You're grossly oversimplifying what people are talking about. A less polite assessment would be that you've missed the point entirely (and feel free any time you like to actually link to a post saying that the Lions having the most debutants is an objective positive).

As a starting point, viewing the number of debutants played relative to a team's on-field performance is still simplifying it (we need to consider injury lists, fixturing, debutants the previous year etc) but it will get you heading somewhere in the direction of context.

It is a useful window into the short term future of clubs... a top 4 team like Fremantle playing few debutants is no concern.

But for a club who is perceived to be on the cusp of a rebuild/bottom-out such as St Kilda or Carlton, it's bleak.

 

[winged1]

Said it before, this year will be the making of this side in two years time (assuming we keep the players and aren't insolvent).

Two years time we will have a strong core list of 20-25 year olds with 30-150 games under their belts.

 

[SizeMatters]

They just rate their blokes that debuted the last few years higher than last years draftees? Rebuilding doesn't necessarily mean playing first year draftees in their first year. You need to drip feed them into the seniors over a few years when they are ready. Collingwood is a club that does this well. Carlton is screwed though... I can't see them ever being a half decent team in the next decade.

This is the positives thread though?

 

[Kevvo]

They just rate their blokes that debuted the last few years higher than last years draftees? Rebuilding doesn't necessarily mean playing first year draftees in their first year. You need to drip feed them into the seniors over a few years when they are ready. Collingwood is a club that does this well. Carlton is screwed though... I can't see them ever being a half decent team in the next decade.

This is the positives thread though?

Over the course of the season, we've showed growing signs of playing to an effective gameplan. We've done that with, as it turns out, a far higher proportion of brand new players. A good rule of thumb is that makes life harder. So, our much higher proportion of draftees suggests that in relative terms our wins and progress are relatively more valuable than the ladder suggests. Also, when our senior players come back in, we have a relatively more experienced core of young players pushing for spots.

How is this not obviously a positive thing?

 

[SizeMatters]

I think next year will be our last year of bottoming out when the likes of Goose, McGrath, Staker, Moloney, possibly Merrett? retire or are delisted. We will lose a huge amount of expereicne in the next 2 seasons so we need to get our young players AFL experience. Considering our list profile I think we have done well this season especially our last month when we have been competitive throughout the whole game. It is time for Redden, Rich, Rockliff to take control of this list and become the leaders that we need. It;s going to be tough when your most experienced players are 25 year olds. I think we will be vying for top 4 in 3 or 4 years time with a very strong midfield and defensive group.

 

[winged1]

The positive is that each kid who has come in looks up to the level, with a couple potential to be elite. If we just debuted 8 bootsma's I would be concerned.

edit **should say of the first year players all look up to standard. Very bullish on the potential of Aish, Gardner, McStay, Taylor, Robbo and Cutler.

 

[a mayes ing]

You're grossly oversimplifying what people are talking about. A less polite assessment would be that you've missed the point entirely (and feel free any time you like to actually link to a post saying that the Lions having the most debutants is an objective positive).

As a starting point, viewing the number of debutants played relative to a team's on-field performance is still simplifying it (we need to consider injury lists, fixturing, debutants the previous year etc) but it will get you heading somewhere in the direction of context.

It is a useful window into the short term future of clubs... a top 4 team like Fremantle playing few debutants is no concern.

But for a club who is perceived to be on the cusp of a rebuild/bottom-out such as St Kilda or Carlton, it's bleak.

Just wondering if you and Haso ever say anything that's not condescending.

 

[jackess]

Just wondering if you and Haso ever say anything that's not condescending.

Don't forget James North.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Just wondering if you and Haso ever say anything that's not condescending.

Dunno. Could be an interesting research project. I suggest you start with the search function.

 

[James North]

Don't forget James North.

Just because I don't agree with your opinions, but write very efficiently, doesn't mean I'm being condescending.

 

[James North]

Just wondering if you and Haso ever say anything that's not condescending.

Could be worth considering that effective rebuttal with:

1. Point form arguments, and
2. Logic

Might just be exactly that.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Could be worth considering that effective rebuttal with:

1. Point form arguments, and
2. Logic

Might just be exactly that.

Yeah but evidence based argument and logic are considered impolite in the "everyone's opinion is equal and beautiful" glass-jaw generation.

Hitchens is rolling in his grave.

 

[James North]

Yeah but evidence based argument and logic are considered impolite in the "everyone's opinion is equal and beautiful" generation.

So condescending.

 

[jackess]

Just because I don't agree with your opinions, but write very efficiently, doesn't mean I'm being condescending.

I was sort of looking for a funny reply not a condescening one.

 

[James North]

I was sort of looking for a funny reply not a condescening one.

Sorry I forgot that you quoted me somewhere other than the vent thread...

RIP.

 

[Big Sauce 21]

Page 51 lacks positive facts

 

[jackess]

Great. Now I'm being shouted down. In a condescending manner.