The possibility of Essendon innocence: a travesty of justice or conspiracy theory for the ages?

[Ghost Patrol]

Wilful ignorance is bliss....

There's no such thing

 

[blackshadow]

Some are handicapped by stupidity.....

You'd know

 

[yaco55]

But why would he be injecting any substance? It needed to be a substance that “worked”. His employment depended on getting results. We already know he was more than capable of injecting banned substances into footballers. Just ask the Cronulla players. Why would he suddenly change? Just because Hird asked him to keep it all above board? That just meant he would do the same but just try to keep the truth from him. Why check players’ IGF-1 levels? Why tell someone you’re injecting GHRP type drugs into players when you are not? Why not clearly state which type of thmyosin you are using? Why not keep a record of the purchase orders? Why has he no clue of the dose of thymomodulin since he was supposedly using it? Again, when you are embarking on a club wide injection program, why not keep clear records of what and how much was given to who? We actually know for a fact that some players definitely got given a banned substance as they admitted to it. AOD is clearly on the prohibited list now. Back then Dank got around a dopey ASADA who were asleep at the wheel.

I know the argument which is “but but but but but there was no positive test!” and that "you can’t prove any individual got a banned substance!". Surely when you are doing something like this it incumbent on the individual (Dank) to prove that what they were doing was above board since what they were trying to achieve was an improvement in sporting performance.

Dank skirted at the edges with loose links to bikies, billing disputes with Alavi and Willcourt, so it's not like he was always truthful and honest - So it's conceivable that he may have used placebo type substances in some cases or sent the good stuff to his clinic - You are forgetting that the major emphasis of the EFC fitness regime was players getting stronger through heavy weight sessions and the like under Robinson - So any change in player performance was not solely because of supplements - What we can agree upon is that in some cases Dank gave players unknown substances.

 

[ChipnPotato]

You have never really explained why their legal team didn’t raise the possibility of them taking thymomodulin at the CAS hearing. They talked about TA1. Dank never mentioned giving the players TA1 so why would they go down this path?

In the Award, the reference is to WADA referring to different versions of Thymosin to aid muscle recovery and suggesting that alpha1 and a few others (known for their immune boosting properties), were not likely candidates, other than TB-4. Essendon's principle defence was on breaking down the existence of TB-4, not proving Thymomodulin. They had acknowledged that it was impossible to know what was in there and thus it could have been any one of the approved versions of Thymosin, if it was Thymosin at all.

 

[ChipnPotato]

I don't like the players being called drug cheats but I have stated they were at least trying to be drug assisted with what they were falsely told were legal drugs.

Tell me do you think De Goey was drug assisted when he flew to Germany to have 10 injections a day over a few days to accelerate his hamstring (muscle) recovery with undisclosed substances? He cut his recovery time from 6 weeks to 3. That's significant don't you think?

I prefer the term unknowing drug cheat as opposed to knowing drug cheat.

Doesn't exist.

I can see you are perplexed, ethically you know they didn't intend to cheat and they were done over. One day you'll come to accept this and with it the notion, they are 'not drug cheats'. At worst they were unwitting, and severely let down by their club and the AFL.

For me, Dank is the guilty party here. We know he used prohibited drugs at Cronulla shortly before going to Essendon. So he clearly was capable of doing the same at Essendon.

Do you think he was capable of doing the same at Manly, Gold Coast in 2011, Melbourne in 2013 and Geelong in 2007? I mean the latter only won the premiership and all.. This was referenced in the CAS award (his affiliation with these clubs, except Melbourne of course ). Or do you think he only turned bad after he departed the Gold Coast and went to Cronulla and then switched back to being good, before unofficially joining Melbourne?

 

[Reg Grundy35]

ive been away. looks like the latest "bombshell" die in the arse?

 

[Ron The Bear]

Dank skirted at the edges with loose links to bikies, billing disputes with Alavi and Willcourt, so it's not like he was always truthful and honest - So it's conceivable that he may have used placebo type substances in some cases or sent the good stuff to his clinic

Dank was looking to get his hooks into other clubs, so it's more likely that he didn't hold anything back.

 

[kane249]

Tell me do you think De Goey was drug assisted when he flew to Germany to have 10 injections a day over a few days to accelerate his hamstring (muscle) recovery with undisclosed substances? He cut his recovery time from 6 weeks to 3. That's significant don't you think?

Jordan De Goey: Radical Germany trip to fix hamstring is a 'Hail Mary', says Nathan Buckley

Collingwood coach Nathan Buckley has admitted Jordan De Goey's trip to Germany is a

www.sportingnews.com

OTL: Healer or quack?

Healing Hans, as Dr. Hans-Wilhelm Muller-Wohlfahrt is affectionately known, ranks as either the greatest healer since Hippocrates or is a quack with a hyperactive syringe, depending on whom you believe.

www.espn.com.au

The doctor in question is Hans-Wilhelm Muller-Wohlfahrt who was the German national doctor for 23 years before moving to Bayern Munich, he's not some unknown who's been dabbling in sports medicine. De Goey might not understand the full details of what it was, but let's face it he's not a rocket scientist either.

By his own reports he does use a lot of Actovegin in his treatments, but that's yet to be banned by WADA. So unless you have some evidence that he was using unknown substances not approved by WADA, it's an unfounded conspiracy theory at this point in time.

29. What is the status of Actovegin?
Actovegin is a deproteinized calf serum. According to the manufacturer, it contains peptides, amino acids, nucleic acids but does not contain cells or proteins. Independent analysis of the product has not detected prohibited growth factors, proteins in general, or steroids. So based on this, Actovegin is not prohibited except if it is used as an intravenous infusion or injection of more than 100 mL each 12 hours.

 

[ChipnPotato]

Jordan De Goey: Radical Germany trip to fix hamstring is a 'Hail Mary', says Nathan Buckley

Collingwood coach Nathan Buckley has admitted Jordan De Goey's trip to Germany is a

www.sportingnews.com

OTL: Healer or quack?

Healing Hans, as Dr. Hans-Wilhelm Muller-Wohlfahrt is affectionately known, ranks as either the greatest healer since Hippocrates or is a quack with a hyperactive syringe, depending on whom you believe.

www.espn.com.au

The doctor in question is Hans-Wilhelm Muller-Wohlfahrt who was the German national doctor for 23 years before moving to Bayern Munich, he's not some unknown who's been dabbling in sports medicine. De Goey might not understand the full details of what it was, but let's face it he's not a rocket scientist either.

By his own reports he does use a lot of Actovegin in his treatments, but that's yet to be banned by WADA. So unless you have some evidence that he was using unknown substances not approved by WADA, it's an unfounded conspiracy theory at this point in time.

Sounds a bit sus.. It is banned if ‘injected’ over a certain amount (100ml) every 12 hours. De Goey did admit he was injected ‘heaps’ over a few days and the quack performs his craft in secrecy. It’s calf serum, amino acids and peptides.. yet mention ‘calf’ and essendon players and the reaction is magnified 1000%.

You think you know what Hans does, but no one really does.

No plan to start a conspiracy. Just interesting to see how one is simply accepted without question or proof required. The methods are very similar to what Dank was trying to achieve in the AFL and failed miserably. Albeit, Hans is a Doctor and that makes it okay to work in secrecy and not have his work peer reviewed? Why? Because he wants to protect his intellectual property, similar to what Dank and Essendon were doing with their ‘secret’ program. Pretty sure the drugs and methods that he is providing for his patients has the focused intention to produce ‘results’ - i.e. reduce someone’s recovery time by half by accelerating muscle repair. Except whatever he’s doing or using actually, works.
The line here is made from invisible hair..

 

[kane249]

Sounds a bit sus.. It is banned if ‘injected’ over a certain amount (100ml) every 12 hours. De Goey did admit he was injected ‘heaps’ over a few days and the quack performs his craft in secrecy. It’s calf serum, amino acids and peptides.. yet mention ‘calf’ and essendon players and the reaction is magnified 1000%.

You think you know what Hans does, but no one really does.

No plan to start a conspiracy. Just interesting to see how one is simply accepted without question or proof required. The methods are very similar to what Dank was trying to achieve in the AFL and failed miserably. Albeit, Hans is a Doctor and that makes it okay to work in secrecy and not have his work peer reviewed? Why? Because he wants to protect his intellectual property, similar to what Dank and Essendon were doing with their ‘secret’ program. Pretty sure the drugs and methods that he is providing for his patients has the focused intention to produce ‘results’ - i.e. reduce someone’s recovery time by half by accelerating muscle repair. Except whatever he’s doing or using actually, works.
The line here is made from invisible hair..

I think the main difference in Dank bought Cronulla and Essendon into disrepute when he worked there where as in his 42 years with the German national team and Bayern Munich Hans hasn't had any problems with WADA?

I think it was mentioned in one of the articles De Goey had 10 injections over 5 days which would be WADA compliant of one every 12 hours.

It is also worth noting other athletes he's treated include:
Usain Bolt
Maurice Greene
Darren Gough
Michael Owen
Steven Gerrard
Jurgen Klinsmann
Ronaldo
Jose Maria Olazabal

Other AFL players he's treated in the past include Ben Reid, Max Rooke, Mark Coughlan and Dylan Grimes.

From the weight of years in the business, the vast variety of athletes he's treated including Olympians and a record of zero WADA incidents gives a fairly good indication that Hans is good at his job and keeping it legal. Dank on the other hand left a trail of destruction at two clubs.

 

[blackshadow]

I think the main difference in Dank bought Cronulla and Essendon into disrepute when he worked there where as in his 42 years with the German national team and Bayern Munich Hans hasn't had any problems with WADA?

I think it was mentioned in one of the articles De Goey had 10 injections over 5 days which would be WADA compliant of one every 12 hours.

It is also worth noting other athletes he's treated include:
Usain Bolt
Maurice Greene
Darren Gough
Michael Owen
Steven Gerrard
Jurgen Klinsmann
Ronaldo
Jose Maria Olazabal

Other AFL players he's treated in the past include Ben Reid, Max Rooke, Mark Coughlan and Dylan Grimes.

From the weight of years in the business, the vast variety of athletes he's treated including Olympians and a record of zero WADA incidents gives a fairly good indication that Hans is good at his job and keeping it legal. Dank on the other hand left a trail of destruction at two clubs.

The only thing evident from Chip's ranting is that he loves a good reach.

 

[Obese Arachnid]

The only thing evident from Chip's ranting is that he loves a good reach around.

FTFY

 

[ChipnPotato]

I think the main difference in Dank bought Cronulla and Essendon into disrepute when he worked there where as in his 42 years with the German national team and Bayern Munich Hans hasn't had any problems with WADA?

I think it was mentioned in one of the articles De Goey had 10 injections over 5 days which would be WADA compliant of one every 12 hours.

It is also worth noting other athletes he's treated include:
Usain Bolt
Maurice Greene
Darren Gough
Michael Owen
Steven Gerrard
Jurgen Klinsmann
Ronaldo
Jose Maria Olazabal

Other AFL players he's treated in the past include Ben Reid, Max Rooke, Mark Coughlan and Dylan Grimes.

From the weight of years in the business, the vast variety of athletes he's treated including Olympians and a record of zero WADA incidents gives a fairly good indication that Hans is good at his job and keeping it legal. Dank on the other hand left a trail of destruction at two clubs.

Blind faith. The fact that you have to list those players alone tells you that he is untouchable. You accept that he injected De Goey x amount of times because it was written in an article. I wonder if the journo who wrote the article was behind the closed door where it all unfolded? I saw and heard De Goey on national television state ‘a crap load of injections’. A crap load could mean 5, 10 or 50. Why did De Goey have to stay there for so long? It’s ironic how the legality of the purported drugs is based on volume and time in the ‘body’. De Goey enters a mystical ‘castle’ and exits 5-7 days later? Worth asking the question.

The quack has worked for 42 years. Please direct me to a professional journal where his work has been peer reviewed and research studies conducted to validate the efficacy of his methods and the appropriateness for human use. De Goey travelled to Germany because the stuff isn’t legal in this country.

Don’t get me wrong. If Dank is a pre-schooler, this guy is the head master.

Dank also worked at Manly, Geelong, Gold Coast, Melbourne and consulted to many others. He only turned bad for Cronulla and Essendon?

 

[kane249]

Blind faith. The fact that you have to list those players alone tells you that he is untouchable. You accept that he injected De Goey x amount of times because it was written in an article. I wonder if the journo who wrote the article was behind the closed door where it all unfolded? I saw and heard De Goey on national television state ‘a crap load of injections’. A crap load could mean 5, 10 or 50. Why did De Goey have to stay there for so long? It’s ironic how the legality of the purported drugs is based on volume and time in the ‘body’. De Goey enters a mystical ‘castle’ and exits 5-7 days later? Worth asking the question.

The quack has worked for 42 years. Please direct me to a professional journal where his work has been peer reviewed and research studies conducted to validate the efficacy of his methods and the appropriateness for human use. De Goey travelled to Germany because the stuff isn’t legal in this country.

Don’t get me wrong. If Dank is a pre-schooler, this guy is the head master.

Dank also worked at Manly, Geelong, Gold Coast, Melbourne and consulted to many others. He only turned bad for Cronulla and Essendon?

Unless you do have proof what Dr Hans is illegal, what you are doing is slandering him with a half baked conspiracy theory to deflect from Dank.

If you want papers on the effectiveness of it do your own legwork. What I can tell you is his methods have passed WADA scrutiny for 42 years. They might not be conventional, but they are legal.
But hey Usain Bolt swears by him, and passed stringent drug testing so proofs in the pudding there.

De Goey travelled to Germany because Dr Hans is the team doctor for Bayern Munich. He's not going to take a few weeks off from his job at one of the biggest sporting clubs in the world to go treat an athlete in a much, much, much smaller sporting organization. Try and put a bit of common sense into your thinking. Actovegin isn't illegal in Australia either btw if the WADA guidelines are followed.

The only thing I can agree with you on is Danks consulting at Manly, Geelong, Gold Coast and Melbourne do look dodgy in hindsight. However there doesn't seem to be any proof to the extent there was at Essendon at Cronulla, so it's all conjecture at this stage with no proof for a conviction.

If and when Dr Hans gets banned by WADA feel free to quote me, but until then Danks the only one who's been proven to use illegal methods.

 

[yaco55]

Unless you do have proof what Dr Hans is illegal, what you are doing is slandering him with a half baked conspiracy theory to deflect from Dank.

If you want papers on the effectiveness of it do your own legwork. What I can tell you is his methods have passed WADA scrutiny for 42 years. They might not be conventional, but they are legal.
But hey Usain Bolt swears by him, and passed stringent drug testing so proofs in the pudding there.

De Goey travelled to Germany because Dr Hans is the team doctor for Bayern Munich. He's not going to take a few weeks off from his job at one of the biggest sporting clubs in the world to go treat an athlete in a much, much, much smaller sporting organization. Try and put a bit of common sense into your thinking. Actovegin isn't illegal in Australia either btw if the WADA guidelines are followed.

The only thing I can agree with you on is Danks consulting at Manly, Geelong, Gold Coast and Melbourne do look dodgy in hindsight. However there doesn't seem to be any proof to the extent there was at Essendon at Cronulla, so it's all conjecture at this stage with no proof for a conviction.

If and when Dr Hans gets banned by WADA feel free to quote me, but until then Danks the only one who's been proven to use illegal methods.

Hey - Many experienced people in the field have questioned the legitimacy of Dr Han's work and the total absence of any peer based papers - Dr Han's has nothing to do with Dank.

 

[kane249]

Hey - Many experienced people in the field have questioned the legitimacy of Dr Han's work and the total absence of any peer based papers - Dr Han's has nothing to do with Dank.

As I said, his methods aren't conventional but 42 years and no athlete he's treated has had a problem with WADA so speaks for itself.

 

[ChipnPotato]

What I can tell you is his methods have passed WADA scrutiny for 42 years.

You do realise WADA was only established in 2000. So that’s only 19 of 42 years and probably even less considering WADA didn’t (and probably still don’t) have their house in order.

Is it in WADA’s jurisdiction to ‘scrutinise’ methods or catch drug cheats? I’m pretty sure it’s the latter and they can barely even get ‘this’ right.

But hey Usain Bolt swears by him

Usain should replace Peter in front of the Pearly Gates then.

De Goey travelled to Germany because Dr Hans is the team doctor for Bayern Munich. He's not going to take a few weeks off from his job at one of the biggest sporting clubs in the world to go treat an athlete in a much, much, much smaller sporting organization. Try and put a bit of common sense into your thinking. Actovegin isn't illegal in Australia either btw if the WADA guidelines are followed.

De Goey stated that he travelled to Germany because ‘some’ of the substances he was being injected with were ‘not legal in Australia’ (his words). In other words they were not approved for human use in this country (TGA approved). Otherwise De Goey could have sourced the drugs here and utilised the Collingwood doctor to administer them.

Again it’s ironic how the ‘banned’ nature is centred on volume and time, not on the presence of the source in the body, but the quantity at any given time.

So using common sense as you’ve indicated, how would one be caught of a breach unless a WADA official joined De Goey or any other of the high profile athletes during their treatment behind the closed door?

 

[kane249]

You do realise WADA was only established in 2000. So that’s only 19 of 42 years and probably even less considering WADA didn’t (and probably still don’t) have their house in order.

Is it in WADA’s jurisdiction to ‘scrutinise’ methods or catch drug cheats? I’m pretty sure it’s the latter and they can barely even get ‘this’ right.



Usain should replace Peter in front of the Pearly Gates then.




De Goey stated that he travelled to Germany because ‘some’ of the substances he was being injected with were ‘not legal in Australia’ (his words). In other words they were not approved for human use in this country (TGA approved). Otherwise De Goey could have sourced the drugs here and utilised the Collingwood doctor to administer them.

Again it’s ironic how the ‘banned’ nature is centred on volume and time, not on the presence of the source in the body, but the quantity at any given time.

So using common sense as you’ve indicated, how would one be caught of a breach unless a WADA official joined De Goey or any other of the high profile athletes during their treatment behind the closed door?

This is going nowhere, so I'm signing off this thread with a summary. As I said feel free to quote if things changed.

-Dr Hans, no athletes treated have been banned by WADA or any other similar organization
-Dank screwed up the fortunes of at least 2 sporting clubs with question marks over the other clubs hes been involved

Have fun with your conspiracy theory that they are the same

 

[ChipnPotato]

Have fun with your conspiracy theory that they are the same

Never said they are the same. No intention to start conspiracy theories. Individuals acceptance for burden of proof or blind faith are the differentiators that come to mind.

 

[blackshadow]

No intention to start conspiracy theories.

You just live in a tin hat world full of injustice...

 

[Aussie in exile]

In all this Essendon saga, if the stuff was legal that was injected into the players why didn't Essendon keep the records?
In my opinion the stuff injected into the players illegal and that why they was tipped off the testers were closing in on them and that's why they didn't keep any records.
There is a reason why the AFL brought in the 3 strike rule and it was nothing to do with protecting the players it was in my opinion about protecting the AFL brand.

 

[ChipnPotato]

You just live in a tin hat world full of injustice...

The paranoia is crippling. One must master the art of mind control to not fall victim to the baiting.

 

[owen87]

In all this Essendon saga, if the stuff was legal that was injected into the players why didn't Essendon keep the records?
In my opinion the stuff injected into the players illegal and that why they was tipped off the testers were closing in on them and that's why they didn't keep any records.
There is a reason why the AFL brought in the 3 strike rule and it was nothing to do with protecting the players it was in my opinion about protecting the AFL brand.

The 3 strike rule is related to recreational drugs found in the players system not on game-day (on game day is an ASADA issue). It's recognition of the reality that these players are young people, with lots of cash, who really can't go out and get on the piss and therefore are highly likely to do a line of coke.

Not really relevant to the Essendon situation.

 

[Aussie in exile]

The 3 strike rule is related to recreational drugs found in the players system not on game-day (on game day is an ASADA issue). It's recognition of the reality that these players are young people, with lots of cash, who really can't go out and get on the piss and therefore are highly likely to do a line of coke.

Not really relevant to the Essendon situation.

Correct, but it is about protecting the AFL brand and trying to give the impression that the game has less drug problems than other sports. It was trying to mask the games problems.
All sports have drug problems to a lesser or greater degree.

 

[ChipnPotato]

In all this Essendon saga, if the stuff was legal that was injected into the players why didn't Essendon keep the records?
In my opinion the stuff injected into the players illegal and that why they was tipped off the testers were closing in on them and that's why they didn't keep any records.

You do realise that Dank consulted to Melbourne from August 2012, when he was sacked by Essendon, until the very day Essendon self reported in 2013? He in effect would have used the exact same substances, injected into the Melbourne players. There were no other trips made to China (that were reported), so where would Dank have sourced the good version of Thymosin for the Melbourne players, if Essendon was supplied the bad version?

Why don't you call your club and ask them to provide you a list of the records that Dank used on the Melbourne players? Do Melbourne have anything to hide? They lied to the AFL that Dank had worked for them. Text messages were then uncovered between Dank and the Melbourne club doctor, implicating 8 Melbourne players about an injections program. Subsequently, Melbourne acknowledged Dank 'did provide' some 'unofficial' services and then stood down it's club doctor. Why would Melbourne lie?

Your club should have bought lotto tickets all throughout 2013. Just consider that your club was lucky to have been found guilty of 'not tanking' as the main reason Essendon were made the sole AFL scapegoat in this saga. Match fixing is a more serious offence than doping. Melbourne players were simply left to play, with no questions asked.

Text messages reveal Dank involved with Demons

The sport scientist at the centre of the Essendon AFL doping scandal has revealed he also had extensive dealings with the Melbourne Demons.

www.abc.net.au