List Mgmt. The possibility of needing to bottom out

hamohawk1

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Will no doubt get shot down by a few posters for this but it should be an avenue that is possibly explored.

I think our list is starting to develop players who are holding a spot that wouldnt really be apart of a premiership contender i.e. nash, TOB, Brand, while players like Rough, Shiels, Gunston, Silk, Chip have either entered their swansong of their careers or will most not likely be part of a premiership push unless we can really push it in the next 1-2 years.

Just want to know the thoughts of other posters to see where the list is at now, 2020 and beyond and how we should approach list management. For me its a no brainer this year to go to the draft and recruit a few players who can be apart of our next real crack. The addition of mitchell will help our midfield depth but really think we should try build our depth around other positions.
 

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Luv_our_club

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#2
I think we should have a list building thread. It is not about tanking. We don't tank. Never have, and never will. i just know that finishing mid table year after year is death.

The only time Clarko had a twinkle in his eye at the press conference is when he declared we don't hang around to be competitive, we are here to win flags.
 

Judd2Sewell

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#3
We won't bottom out, the club has backed itself in for this 'rebuild on the run,' by targeting FA's.

IMO we have a good core to build around. My ratings are based on their ability comparative to the positions they play.

Sicily - A grader
Hardwick - potential A grader
Impey - solid B grader
Scrimshaw - early call, but potential A grader

Mitchell - A+ grader
Jaeger - A grader
Worpel - potential A grader
Shiels - solid B grader
Scully - potential A grader (fitness permitting)

Wingard - A grader
Breust - A grader
Gunston - A grader

All of those games have more than a few years left, whilst the older players (who aren't playing out their last year) like Smith, Henderson, Stratton (though he's not playing like it), Frawley and Big Boy have each got a few years left in the tank.

What we desperately need though are KPPers, and midfield depth. We essentially have the worst depth in the league in both departments.

If we can somehow add that over the off season then we would become a top 8 team again. And by that I mean Coniglio and Patton, though I don't want to get my hopes up. A player like Coniglio instantly transforms our midfield into to one of the best in the comp, with Mitchell's return and (hopefully) a fit Wingard (who should be playing there IMO and then taking his man forward).

Aside from FA's we desperately need some players from Box Hill to develop and take the step up. Hopefully Cousins and Lewis (in particular) are two of these missing pieces.
 
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Spursfan

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#4
I think go after FAs even if we have to over pay them slightly in $ terms (for Cogs I would do this). I agree with OP keep draft picks , as I think we will get a top 10 pick (miss finals). If we are looking to trade go after under 22/23 types (Brodie from GC fits the bill here) where we can get a top pick from a previous draft for a later draft pick this year or next.
 

Zack

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#6
Look there is bottoming out like Carlton/Melbourne and there is bottoming out.

There is a fair difference. But your comments are fair.

I think we are there this year... unless of course we perform a miracle and get over GWS,

We ain't that far away yet we are miles away.

To be honest you've mentioned.... Rough, Shiels, Gunston, Silk, Chip, you may have got some wrong, Rough is gone premiership wise at this point of time... Chip probably is too. Silk is but who knows weird unit who could probably play til his 45. Gunston and Shiels are both far younger than our captain who's struggled to get a touch this year so should be safer.

The question is can we turn it around? Dunno but for example if we got Coniglio and Mitchell comes back haven't we just added two top twenty players in the league? Well we have on paper,

Overall though if your shot down, don't worry about it. You've asked an obvious and very good question, that to be honest needs to be asked. So your question is perfect.
 

Messenger

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I think we should have a list building thread. It is not about tanking. We don't tank. Never have, and never will. i just know that finishing mid table year after year is death.

The only time Clarko had a twinkle in his eye at the press conference is when he declared we don't hang around to be competitive, we are here to win flags.
It’s not a question of tanking, it’s a question of a change of strategy.

We’ve spent many years trading out of the first and often second round to bring in high end talent or trading for retreads (like Scrimshaw) where the value of a 21 year old with two years in an AFL system short circuits some of the need for development.

We’ve turned over small increments of the list and our drafting has been from the bottom end of the draft. We’ve done well but ultimately the list lacks depth.

If we’re looking for value trading picks for high end talent costs us draft and salary cap capital. My view is we should be using picks and cap space but pulling back on trading for “stars”.
 

Davo-27

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#10
we wont bottom out, but i have doubts we'll win a final either the way we are going, we're in that nowhere zone

players degenerating: Burgoyne, Roughead, Birchall, Frawley, Smith, Stratton, Puopolo, Mohr*

players out of favour: Schoenmakers, Ceglar, Morrison, Miles, Pittonet

players in their prime: McEvoy, Shiels, Breust, Gunston, Scully, Wingard, Henderson, Mitchell, JOM, Impey, Sicily, Hardwick, Worpel, Scrimshaw, Lewis, Moore, Walker, Koschitzke, Ross, Jiath*, Jones*, Greaves*, Golds*

players with question marks: Howe, O'Brien, Brand, Minchington, Glass, Mirra, Cousins, Nash, Hanrahan*, Reeves*

we need less players in the degenerating and question mark category and more players in the prime category, also i was one of the few people wanting us to go to the draft last season instead of going after Wingard, who is a star but too similar to Breust and Gunston imo, we could have had Burton a tall defender/forward, in fact i was hoping he would transition into a forward with us, then we would also have Xavier Duursma, not a bad pick up and another kid yet to debut, we gave up all that for a small forw we dont need, but is a luxury. Im guessing we will trade instead of going to the draft again this year...... im so sad to see us head down this road.(when you have a good core going after top ups im all for, but when the list is in a shambles topping up is the worst idea imo)
 
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WWSD

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#11
I don’t think there’s a need to completely bottom out. There will be 6-7 retirements by the end of 2020.

I do however believe that it’s in the clubs best interest if they focus on this years draft and identify the lack of quality key position players, so missing the finals this year might not be the worst outcome as it could be beneficial going forward. Secure a top 10 pick and use it wisely.

Mitchell back next year and if Coniglio is to join as a free agent there’s a strong possibility to shoot right back up the ladder in 2020.
 

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hamohawk1

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we wont bottom out, but i have doubts we'll win a final either the way we are going, we're in that nowhere zone

players degenerating: Burgoyne, Roughead, Birchall, Frawley, Smith, Stratton, Puopolo, Mohr*

players out of favour: Schoenmakers, Ceglar, Morrison, Miles, Pittonet

players in their prime: McEvoy, Shiels, Breust, Gunston, Scully, Wingard, Henderson, Mitchell, JOM, Impey, Sicily, Hardwick, Worpel, Scrimshaw, Lewis, Moore, Walker, Koschitzke, Ross, Jiath*, Jones*, Greaves*, Golds*, Reeves*

players with question marks: Howe, O'Brien, Brand, Minchington, Glass, Mirra, Cousins, Nash, Hanrahan*

we need less players in the degenerating and question mark category and more players in the prime category, also i was one of the few people wanting us to go to the draft last season instead of going after Wingard, who is a star but too similar to Breust and Gunston imo, we could have had Burton a tall defender/forward, in fact i was hoping he would transition into a forward with us, then we would also have Xavier Duursma, not a bad pick up and another kid yet to debut, we gave up all that for a small forw we dont need, but is a luxury. Im guessing we will trade instead of going to the draft again this year...... im so sad to see us head down this road.(when you have a good core going after top ups im all for, but when the list is in a shambles topping up is the worst idea imo)
Great assessment. I dont mind trading occasionally as it has led to great gets like brian lake and chip in the past. But if we over do it we end up like north 2013-2015 around the mark but no where near a contender.
 

hamohawk1

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I don’t think there’s a need to completely bottom out. There will be 6-7 retirements by the end of 2020.

I do however believe that it’s in the clubs best interest if they focus on this years draft and identify the lack of quality key position players, so missing the finals this year might not be the worst outcome as it could be beneficial going forward. Secure a top 10 pick and use it wisely.

Mitchell back next year and if Coniglio is to join as a free agent there’s a strong possibility to shoot right back up the ladder in 2020.
What do we realistically think Cogs will cost. Cant see GWS accepting anything less than a first round and player (or future round pick), if not more.
 

Davo-27

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#15
Fixed for factual fact. The rest I can live with.
even before his 2 1/2 year injury when he came back for a few weeks i was of the opinion he had slowed down and wasnt as impactful, so i have doubts that if he comes back he will have a huge impact, but im hoping im wrong.
 

beta_condition

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#17
What do we realistically think Cogs will cost. Cant see GWS accepting anything less than a first round and player (or future round pick), if not more.
He will be a free agent and wont cost a thing, GWS will not be able to match an offer another club make shim.

People need to hold back on this rebuild crap, the competition is so damn even just a few players either way can make or break you. They don't even have to be star players eg what Geelong did last season. Land Cogs and get Mitchell back and we're primed to challenge next year, yea a key forward be nice and we need to think about Stratton and Frawley replacements but with the current state of the league there isnt much difference between any club.
 

Gaston

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#18
Only need to ask one question - does Noah Anderson want to come to Hawthorn?
If Yes, have a down year and top up in the draft.
Some first year draftees can have a real impact (provided the support from bigger bodies is at hand).

Clarkson seems to be forgetting where all his premierships came from, a core group was drafted talent.
 

hamohawk1

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Only need to ask one question - does Noah Anderson want to come to Hawthorn?
If Yes, have a down year and top up in the draft.
Some first year draftees can have a real impact (provided the support from bigger bodies is at hand).

Clarkson seems to be forgetting where all his premierships came from, a core group was drafted talent.
The 2004 draft set up our dynasty. Granted we struck gold but it shows 2-3 players can go a long way
 

TylerDurden

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#20
Only need to ask one question - does Noah Anderson want to come to Hawthorn?
If Yes, have a down year and top up in the draft.
Some first year draftees can have a real impact (provided the support from bigger bodies is at hand).

Clarkson seems to be forgetting where all his premierships came from, a core group was drafted talent.
You'd have to finish bottom 2 mate. Then the tank is on from round 8. That's a long year, and will scare off FAs. Clarko won't do it.
 

Davo-27

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#21
Only need to ask one question - does Noah Anderson want to come to Hawthorn?
If Yes, have a down year and top up in the draft.
Some first year draftees can have a real impact (provided the support from bigger bodies is at hand).

Clarkson seems to be forgetting where all his premierships came from, a core group was drafted talent.
exactly, this is what is frustrating me atm.
 

Nash88

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#22
Great thread mate.

Bottoming out is not an option now, we are all in on our rebuild on the run.
The question needs to be asked is are we carrying players who no longer have the passion to climb to the top of the mountain again?
This question needs to be posed to the likes of Stratton, Frawley, Smith who are mature aged players who need to demonstrate leadership and the will to win that they were taught coming through by the likes of hodgey, Mitch and lewy.
We have a number of younger boys who need to be taught the hawthorn way in that we are here to win premierships not to compete and not to make up the numbers.

Obviously there are impending retirements like Burgoyne, Roughead, Birchall and possibly Puopolo so these blokes are exempt from the question above.

There is no doubt that we have talent on the list, this season sadly though, our younger players are being given too much weight to carry and it must be said that is a failure on the older heads who are supposed to be leading the club forward.

We must keep our first 2 picks this year and use them wisely while hitting FA/trade hard. One of coniglio or Brodie must be brought in to improve the midfield and Jonathan Patton regardless of his injury history is an absolute must get. A monster forward when on the park and used correctly who would instantly in my opinion improve our forward line. It’s been said a million times in this forum but I’ll say it again, absolutely imperative to improve our midfield and to bring in a power forward. Patton will be available and needs to be the one.
 

Flag08

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#24
All the recent premiership sides and current best sides have been built on a core of drafted players with top ups gained thru trades to plug holes including us.
We have decided to go the opposite way at present.
I really don’t like it. I can’t warm to blokes like Wingard. Whether or not he ever recaptures the form he showed 3 years ago, and I seriously doubt it, he just doesn’t get my hawk juices going.
What does get me invested in the team is seeing young blokes develop and blossom into stars. Blokes like Hardwick, Sicily and, dare I say it, Burton.
At present we have a handful of ring-in stars, a handful of aging premiership players and precious little else below them. We have no one 21 or under who remotely looks like being a star, bar Worps perhaps who looks promising.
We paid full price for the stars because they are a known talent but they are 25+. The way to get ahead of the pack is to pick kids and develop them so that you keep paying unders for them. This also brings the supporters along for the ride as there is still a bit of romanticism in seeing youngsters bleed for the brown and gold over the course of a career.
Interesting times ahead. Ruff, Poppy, Burger, Birch and Shoe are finished already and Chip, Smith, Hendo, Stratts and BB are not far behind.
 

Flag08

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#25
The 2004 draft set up our dynasty. Granted we struck gold but it shows 2-3 players can go a long way
I’d argue a series of drafts set up our dynasty particularly 2001 and 2004 with some other key players like Crawford, Croad, Changa, Birch and Cyril all acquired via the draft. It wasn’t one arsey draft that got us to the top, it was the clubs dedication to a draft and development strategy over a period of years. That’s the strategy we have moved away from, to our detriment I think.
 
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