Opinion The Primus 26

[Ford Fairlane]

Has our drafting improved since then. I'm not so sure.

2015: Too early but Bonner looks alright and Johnson if he can get his hammies right looks exciting.
2014: Howard, Austin, Palmer all look the part after a shot at league footy. Frampton not far off a debut.
2013: Impey, Byrne-Jones first 18 players, Amon fringe but developing, Harvey a bust.
2012: Wines top shelf, Clurey almost there, Shaw a bust.

Our rookie picks, Sam Gray, Mitchell, Krakouer all serviceable. Snelling, Houston, Hewett early days but showing a bit.

And that's with trading out first round picks each year from 2013 on.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Yep the GC and GWS made drafting a lot more difficult but in 2010 the Jacobs pick and going after Simon Phillips as part of the returning of compo pick for Krakouer and the GC's access to 10 state league players really stand out among those 14 who have been cut/left and classic rookie errors. My Norwood mate who is close to Basset, said they just couldnt believe we were interested in Phillips. We could have taken any player in state leagues around Oz including Puopolo and Nick Duigan who were taken in the 60's and 70's respectively in the 2010 draft.

There's no doubt there have been mistakes but if every club got it 100% right every year no one would be delisted.

 

[Andre]

The Primus 26 is down to 13 and 5 less than 12 months ago ie Butcher, Carlile, O'Shea, Schulz and Stewart have departed.

1. Ah Chee 2nd rd pick #45……... 14. Logan 3rd #49
2. Boak 1st #5………………….…….… 15. Moore 1st #9
3. Broadbent 3rd #38……………….. 16. Newton 2nd #35
4. Butcher 1st # 8…………….….….. 17. O’Shea 3rd #52
5. Carlile 3rd #44………………….…. 18. Pittard 1st #16
6. Cassisi 4th #50………………….…. 19. Redden 4th #54
7. Cornes 2nd #20……………….…… 20. Renouf 2nd #24
8. Ebert 1st #13……………….…..…. 21. Schulz 1st #12
9. Gray 4th #55…………………….…. 22. P.Stewart 2nd #23
10. Hartlett 1st #4…………....……. 23. Trengove 2nd #22
11. Hitchcock RE #12………….…... 24. Westhoff 5th #71
12. Jonas RE #16……………………... 25. Wingard 1st #6
13. Lobbe 1st #16…………………..… 26. Young 2nd #36

One thing is certain, this list is now Ken's. He's had the chance to get rid of any player he inherited upon starting.

 

[Portology]

The footy department spend in 2010-11 would have been abysmal and we were fighting for survival.

Gold Coast and GWS had effectively raided the talent pool so whoever was left with second round picks on were probably barely the equivalent of third rounders.

Hardly fair to point the finger at Parker for those years.

Funny how things start to improve with increased income, footy department spend and the ability to leverage off of the northern academies.

The one thing this board has down to a fine art is blame. If only we were all so perfect in our lives as many of the posters here.

To summarise, through red wine coloured glasses:

2009 was arguably the toughest year possible to start a newbie in the top recruiting job, for a few reasons, not just the obvious pre-raiding of the pool but also that 2009 represented the beginning of the opening up of the trading world too. It's very likely at that moment in time we couldn't afford to pinch any smarter or simply harder nosed tactician/lead talent spotter/negotiator, due to the long term impact of what might be best called "The 20-Years'-War", that had been draining us of resources for decades and whose flow on effects were about to help tip our club's fortunes to their lowest ebb for 140 years.

Thankfully, Parker seems to be growing into the job, with an unresolved question on his KP/ruck spotting ability. Harvey, Shaw, Curnow busts out of his early years' pickings, Austin, Dougal, Frampton cautious positive from more recent years. If he picks a tall this year I want it to be for the right reasons, not because he's trying to prove to himself that he can.

If you want to blame someone, ya ought to be damn specific or it all turns to Kafka pretty quickly. If you can't be specific, simply posit dark conspiracies and insults for fun and amusement, and for dodgy US presidential candidates to pick up on. "There is less here than meets the eye" is one of my favourite sayings. Because "complex historical circumstances" is quite a mouthful even when you're sober


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[ctpower]

2015: Too early but Bonner looks alright and Johnson if he can get his hammies right looks exciting.
2014: Howard, Austin, Palmer all look the part after a shot at league footy. Frampton not far off a debut.
2013: Impey, Byrne-Jones first 18 players, Amon fringe but developing, Harvey a bust.
2012: Wines top shelf, Clurey almost there, Shaw a bust.

Our rookie picks, Sam Gray, Mitchell, Krakouer all serviceable. Snelling, Houston, Hewett early days but showing a bit.

And that's with trading out first round picks each year from 2013 on.

I think bonner from 2014 looks the goods as does Austin from 2013.
I'm no sure about anyone else from
Those two drafts.

With Ryder and monfries back next year I'm not even sure impey makes our best 22.

I'm not sure clurey makes our best 22 either. Touch and go on that one.

This draft will make or break us. I hope parker is up to it.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

As the sponsorship money comes in we can strengthen the recruiting networks and make Parker look like a genius.

As the English experience in recent Olympics shows, money talks.

 

[PatientMental]

They need to consult with southampton's scouts on how to find incredible players for nothing year after year when players keep getting poached by the dodgy money clubs.

That team of recruiters are a freak show of finding players from literally nothing and getting the best out of them.

 

[mightypowerrrr]

I think bonner from 2014 looks the goods as does Austin from 2013.
I'm no sure about anyone else from
Those two drafts.

With Ryder and monfries back next year I'm not even sure impey makes our best 22.

I'm not sure clurey makes our best 22 either. Touch and go on that one.

This draft will make or break us. I hope parker is up to it.

Impey definitely does. He can play more of a midfield role is quick and has x factor, something we need

 

[chiwigi]

As the sponsorship money comes in we can strengthen the recruiting networks and make Parker look like a genius.

As the English experience in recent Olympics shows, money talks.

30% of the Team GB medals were won by non English, yet the English make up 84% of the population.

 

[Steve Dore]

30% of the Team GB medals were won by non English, yet the English make up 84% of the population.

I remember Spike Milligan complaining that if only he could run like Zola Budd he'd be a British citizen.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

And we are down to the Primus 9.

The Primus 26 of 2014 - and Primus 30 odd in 2013 look like having more success than the Hinkley 36, unless things take a decent turn.

2. Boak 1st #5………………….…….…
3. Broadbent 3rd #38………………..
8. Ebert 1st #13……………….…..…
9. Gray 4th #55…………………….….
10. Hartlett 1st #4…………....…….
18. Pittard 1st #16
24. Westhoff 5th #71
12. Jonas RE #16……………………..
25. Wingard 1st #6

 

[tribey]

Yep the GC and GWS made drafting a lot more difficult but in 2010 the Jacobs pick and going after Simon Phillips as part of the returning of compo pick for Krakouer and the GC's access to 10 state league players really stand out among those 14 who have been cut/left and classic rookie errors. My Norwood mate who is close to Basset, said they just couldnt believe we were interested in Phillips. We could have taken any player in state leagues around Oz including Puopolo and Nick Duigan who were taken in the 60's and 70's respectively in the 2010 draft.

That period really was a twilight zone.

Was mentioned again only recently, but taking Blee with #51 - a mature-age WAFL fullback who was too small to play that position at AFL level so he became an early-Jonasey flanker/def-mid - when Lachie Neale (Glenelg) went at #58 was Carltonesque list sabotage.

Our 191cm+ defenders at the time: Carlile, Trengove, Chaplin, P. Stewart, Salter, O'Shea

Our midfielders: Kornes, Boak, Pearce, Cassisi, Rodan, Thomas, (Gray, Hartlett, Moore, Newton)

No need for a young, quick, skilful local mid there. Let's plump for yet another 191cm def. Oh and:

He played his junior football for the Kybybolite Football Club and then the Glenelg Football Club in the South Australian National Football League (SANFL), including seven games in the league side before returning to the Under-18 team for the Grand Final. Despite Glenelg losing to Port Adelaide, he gathered 40 possessions and was awarded the Alan Stewart Medal as the best player in the game.

Yewwww!

 

[1954]

If a hyperthetical game between the Primus list and the current list could be arranged, the current list should win by 60 plus, anywhere, any time.

Apart from the perpetual c*ck up of having no genuine ( AFL ready? ) replacement for Ryder this list is the best we have had for years.
The malaise we find ourselves in today is mainly caused by coaching/game plan, and I suspect there are more than a few coaches at other clubs who could improve us by at least 5 goals!

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

The Primus 26 (end of 2012) is down to 9. Actually it was the Primus 44 ie start of 2012. The 9 are taken from 1st post with 5 being first rounders and 5 from the super drafts of 2006 and 2008

2. Boak 1st rd pick #5
3. Broadbent 3rd #38
18. Pittard 1st #16
8. Ebert 1st #13
9.Gray 4th #55
10. Hartlett 1st #4
12. Jonas RE #16
24. Westhoff 5th #71
25. Wingard 1st #6

Interesting that the clubs who have more players left than 2012 don't have that many more than us.


Edit A month after this post it was down to 7 with Pittard and Wingard traded out.

[Wines + Clurey Ken had some say in drafting them as we drafted them 6 weeks after we appointed him Coach. Other 2012 drafted in and traded in players no longer around, - trades Monfries, Hombsch, Neade, Heath, Stevenson, drafted Mason Shaw, rookied Mitchell and Hoskin]

 

[GremioPower]

The Primus 26 (end of 2012) is down to 9. Actually it was the Primus 44 ie start of 2012. The 9 are taken from 1st post with 5 being first rounders and 5 from the super drafts of 2006 and 2008

2. Boak 1st rd pick #5
3. Broadbent 3rd #38
18. Pittard 1st #16
8. Ebert 1st #13
9.Gray 4th #55
10. Hartlett 1st #4
12. Jonas RE #16
24. Westhoff 5th #71
25. Wingard 1st #6

Interesting that the clubs who have more players left than 2012 don't have that many more than us.

The average is 10.17 players; the median is 11. We are below those thresholds — which points towards preserving 1/4 of the list in 6 years.

Each one of the top-5 has 55,56% more players than we do. That is not few. [They have 37.7% more than the average (27.27% above the median)] Still, those were dark times.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

The average is 10.17 players; the median is 11. We are below those thresholds — which points towards preserving 1/4 of the list in 6 years.

Each one of the top-5 has 55,56% more players than we do. That is not few. [They have 37.7% more than the average (27.27% above the median). Still, those were dark times.

Look at the quality of the lists in 2012. We won 3 games in 2011 and only 5 wins and a draw in 2012.

Hawks made the GF in 2012 and on the verge of their dynasty, Adelaide finished 4th after 2 consecutive years missing finals, GWS had 15 first round picks plus 4 or 5 which were taken the year before as 17 year old concession picks and probably were first rounders, and WCE had finished 4th and 5th in 2011 and 2012 and had started their rebuild after 3 poor seasons 2008-10 due to their drug culture issues. Western Bulldogs effort is impressive.

 

[GremioPower]

Look at the quality of the lists in 2012. We won 3 games in 2011 and only 5 wins and a draw in 2012.

Hawks made the GF in 2012 and on the verge of their dynasty, Adelaide finished 4th after 2 consecutive years missing finals, GWS had 15 first round picks plus 4 or 5 which were taken the year before as 17 year old concession picks and probably were first rounders, and WCE had finished 4th and 5th in 2011 and 2012 and had started their rebuild after 3 poor seasons 2008-10 due to their drug culture issues. Western Bulldogs effort is impressive.

"Look at the quality of the lists..."

That's why I have said that "those were dark times." From the remaining 9:

2. Boak 1st rd pick #5
3. Broadbent 3rd #38
18. Pittard 1st #16
8. Ebert 1st #13
9.Gray 4th #55
10. Hartlett 1st #4
12. Jonas RE #16
24. Westhoff 5th #71
25. Wingard 1st #6

I would:
- move Ebert on;
- see whether we can improve our list by trading Broadbent and Pittard;
- keep Boak, but releasing him from capitaincy; and
- maintain the others 5.

I wouldn't offer Boak's contract around, but I would listen carefully any proposal that might come in.

 

[DSL64]

"Look at the quality of the lists..."

That's why I have said that "those were dark times." From the remaining 9:

2. Boak 1st rd pick #5
3. Broadbent 3rd #38
18. Pittard 1st #16
8. Ebert 1st #13
9.Gray 4th #55
10. Hartlett 1st #4
12. Jonas RE #16
24. Westhoff 5th #71
25. Wingard 1st #6

I would:
- move Ebert on;
- see whether we can improve our list by trading Broadbent and Pittard;
- keep Boak, but releasing him from capitaincy; and
- maintain the others 5.

I wouldn't offer Boak's contract around, but I would listen carefully any proposal that might come in.

Ebert for a first is a tad misleading...
West Coast drafted Ebert with their first round pick (13) in the 2007 National Draft...
We gave up picks 28 & 49 for Ebert & pick 45 and the end of 2011...

 

[GremioPower]

Ebert for a first is a tad misleading...
West Coast draft Ebert with their first round pick (13) in the 2007 National Draft...
We gave up picks 28 & 49 for Ebert & pick 45 and the end of 2011...

The list is not mine, but RussellEbertHandball 's. I think he used the position in which players were actually drafted.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

The list is not mine, but RussellEbertHandball 's. I think he used the position in which players were actually drafted.

Correct. when I started this thread at end of 2013 I placed where the 26 were originally drafted in the system, not by the club.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

“It’s a miracle what he’s done with that sh¡t’eap!”

This comment by tribey in the media shakes head thread, made me think of this thread, because someone yesterday, I think Rucci, said Hinkley took over such a poor list. After 14 months in the job he went into 2014 season with 26 players Primus had and 16 of them were key players throughout the year, with Hinkley and the list management boys adding a key 6 more in 2 drafts and trading periods post Primus being dismissed - Wines, Monfries, Polec, White, Hombsch and Neade.

It wasn't the list that was the problem, it was the lack of world class fitness staff, the lack of good rehab programs, the lack of decent coaching support with assistant coaches and analysts, the lack of resources full stop. 2 s**t years and so many wanted us killed off.

One day the full balanced story covering the whole 2010-2025 period will be written, giving everybody who changed the club's direction the correct amount of credit and not some messiah complex story.

 

[Janus]

This comment by tribey in the media shakes head thread, made me think of this thread, because someone yesterday, I think Rucci, said Hinkley took over such a poor list. After 14 months in the job he went into 2014 season with 26 players Primus had and 16 of them were key players throughout the year, with Hinkley and the list management boys adding a key 6 more in 2 drafts and trading periods post Primus being dismissed - Wines, Monfries, Polec, White, Hombsch and Neade.

It wasn't the list that was the problem, it was the lack of world class fitness staff, the lack of good rehab programs, the lack of decent coaching support with assistant coaches and analysts, the lack of resources full stop. 2 sh*t years and so many wanted us killed off.

One day the full balanced story covering the whole 2010-2025 period will be written, giving everybody who changed the club's direction the correct amount of credit and not some messiah complex story.

There's more to a list than just the best 22 players. A list is 45 players.

Go back to 2014 and take out this type of quality:

Duursma - injured for thirteen matches
Butters - injured for twelve matches
Fantasia - injured for nine matches
Clurey - injured for seven matches
Motlop - injured for five matches
Gray - injured for five matches
Lycett - suspended four matches

See how great the list is then. I'll guarantee if we went through the same injury list in 2014, we wouldn't have made finals, let alone a preliminary final. Hell, from R14, when we finished the round in top spot, we went on to post a 3-6 record because we picked up some injuries to our back six. In 2021, we lost 5 games for the entire season.

The other stuff was important too, but to say the list wasn't a problem is dismissing how important having a decent drafting and recruiting team is to actually winning a flag. Our malaise started the moment we had to close up shop with the Victorian recruiting office after winning the flag and started paring down costs in scouting etc, like as if it was job done. It was compounded by screwing the pooch with three first round draft busts in Butcher, Moore and Pittard in 2009 - the antithesis of Rozee, Butters and Duursma in 2018.

I don't ever want to see this club cut back on scouting and recruiting again.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

There's more to a list than just the best 22 players. A list is 45 players.

Go back to 2014 and take out this type of quality:

Duursma - injured for thirteen matches
Butters - injured for twelve matches
Fantasia - injured for nine matches
Clurey - injured for seven matches
Motlop - injured for five matches
Gray - injured for five matches
Lycett - suspended four matches

See how great the list is then. I'll guarantee if we went through the same injury list in 2014, we wouldn't have made finals, let alone a preliminary final. Hell, from R14, when we finished the round in top spot, we went on to post a 3-6 record because we picked up some injuries to our back six. In 2021, we lost 5 games for the entire season.

The other stuff was important too, but to say the list wasn't a problem is dismissing how important having a decent drafting and recruiting team is to actually winning a flag. Our malaise started the moment we had to close up shop with the Victorian recruiting office after winning the flag and started paring down costs in scouting etc, like as if it was job done. It was compounded by screwing the pooch with three first round draft busts in Butcher, Moore and Pittard in 2009 - the antithesis of Rozee, Butters and Duursma in 2018.

I don't ever want to see this club cut back on scouting and recruiting again.

I'd didn't say the list was great - but it was incorrect to say it was hopeless in October 2012. It was a solid list.

 

[ctpower]

This comment by tribey in the media shakes head thread, made me think of this thread, because someone yesterday, I think Rucci, said Hinkley took over such a poor list. After 14 months in the job he went into 2014 season with 26 players Primus had and 16 of them were key players throughout the year, with Hinkley and the list management boys adding a key 6 more in 2 drafts and trading periods post Primus being dismissed - Wines, Monfries, Polec, White, Hombsch and Neade.

It wasn't the list that was the problem, it was the lack of world class fitness staff, the lack of good rehab programs, the lack of decent coaching support with assistant coaches and analysts, the lack of resources full stop. 2 sh*t years and so many wanted us killed off.

One day the full balanced story covering the whole 2010-2025 period will be written, giving everybody who changed the club's direction the correct amount of credit and not some messiah complex story.

I hope that includes Matthew Primus.