List Mgmt. The R Word

[Bob Fossil]

It is remarkable more of you don't have jobs in football.

 

[Feeling Groovy]

Yeah don't agree on that last bit. Gaffs an outside player and they won't look as good when the team isn't travelling well (samething happened in 13/14 when people wanted him traded). Pretty sure he's been carrying something for a while but even with that his link up work and workrate is invaluable. Unfortunately you take gaff out and we have no one that has the ability to do run all day and link up like he does. Jetta has pace but is a burst player, Duggan/Partington are more inside/outside prospects. Unfortunately thr only bloke that can do his work is a bloke no one wants in the side. I have confidence in Gaff regaining his form and it's not a huge issue. Our biggest issue is us getting dominated at the stoppages and clearances. Our personnel in the middle as well as our coaching arenbiggeaer issues than gaff.

If the rest of our midfield was performing well, Gaff wouldn't be an issue but he is definitely part of the current problem. The whole mix of our midfield is slow and non-explosive. Whilst his running is good, he isn't very damaging and he certainly looks like he is carrying something as he is looking decidedly ordinary of late. Personally, I would be open to trading him if he wanted to leave for the right price as I think he is one of few players we have that would have value in a trade and his loss could be outweighed (maybe) by potential gains. I wouldn't really be interested in a pick (too speculative) but if we could get a more rounded/explosive mid with exposed form for him, I think the upside would be greater than the down. That said, I am not advocating a trade unless he wanted that and we got such a player in return.

 

[JohnW]

Completely disagree ! Gaff is the problem our midfield is so-so. Overrating his "link" play. His "link" play is the problem. A 15 metre kick up the line or backwards. When was the last time he kicked a spear on to someone's tit in the middle of the ground that opened it up for a scoring opportunity ? I would say never ! And as an outside player he is slow !

He is pretty good going inside 50

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[RookiePick]

I think there has to be a thorough review of the strength and conditioning programs/staff too.

We are tiny compared to most other sides yet don't seem to have any sort of real aerobic advantage. Anyone who adds size drops off significant pace and endurance.

Football is becoming slanted more toward the power athlete with good endurance given the improvement in structures and systems. Two way running is still very important but players that can make a burst of speed or power are the ones that are breaking open the play and creating scoring opportunities. We seem to have gone all in on the endurance athlete but I don't think you get to see the benefit of this very often as your endurance blokes usually aren't floating across the ground in the second half after they have been getting drilled into the ground by significantly more powerful athletes for an hour beforehand. Opposition teams know that if they bring physical pressure, particularly around the ball, we will more than likely wilt.

Why do we think that Yeo and Shuey stand out like absolute dogs balls compared to the rest of the list? They have burst power and speed.

How long have the strength and conditioning guys been around the club? Are we getting the most up to date, elite programs in place for for our players?

 

[JohnW]

CEO's generally have a limited time. Their message, the way they work gets stale.

Especially ones who have been successful, keep trying to repeat what they did, and quit evolving.

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[WCErevival]

Completely disagree ! Gaff is the problem our midfield is so-so. Overrating his "link" play. His "link" play is the problem. A 15 metre kick up the line or backwards. When was the last time he kicked a spear on to someone's tit in the middle of the ground that opened it up for a scoring opportunity ? I would say never ! And as an outside player he is slow !

What I find bizarre is Masten has been a whipping boy for years but Gaff is a similar player yet is rated highly by most. Run all day "link man", soft, doesn't hit the scoreboard, doesn't tackle etc. In fact Masten would have better disposal than him.

 

[dajesmac]

I think he wants him to resign/re-sign.

Really like a lot of your posts but I disagree on this, as I posted on another thread, Gaff is our biggest midfield problem !

Whether he should be traded or not is one thing (although I disagree), but assessing his value is another. He may be having a down year but he's a 25 year old recently All Australian wingman. His market value is somewhere closer to a top ten pick regardless of whether you think we should keep him.

 

[dajesmac]

In fairness the "Anti Nisbett" lobby have been around for many years.
I am a member of said lobby.

As CEO he is the one who is ultimately accountable and responsible for the success or failure of the Football Clubs operations.
Its a demanding position that requires energy , focus and determination.
Trevor has looked sad and tired for some time now and whilst I get that he will be at the Club until the new facilities are completed, he needs to go immediately after thats done.

We need new ideas , new blood and a new broom.
Its a plumb job and you would imagine that there would be no shortage of very good candidates lining up for the jig.

Our Club "once upon a time" strove for excellence, both on and off the field, its high time we reverted back to that mantra.

Do you think we have 'failed' as a football club in recent years? Since 2015 we have won more games than any other team in the competition and made a Grand Final. Sure we came up short of winning a premiership but we're still going a lot better than many other clubs.

I think our issues on the field, particularly in the midfield, boil down partly to some average recruiting compounded by the fact we've had four top 25-pick midfielders leave West Coast against our wishes during the rebuild years (Ebert, Selwood, Swift, Stevens). We have an uneven list and then have had to desperately trade in mature age players that have only backfired. I also think we have some coaching issues, particularly in the midfield where our structures don't seem to be working (why do we play an inside dominant midfield and then get smashed in clearances and barely break even in contested possessions?).

My point is that I don't really see the connection between our shortcomings now and any particular ineptitudes from Nisbett. I also think that we've gone better than most other clubs during the last five or so years and so I don't necessarily believe an overhaul from top to bottom is needed.

I should clarify though that in my original post I wasn't necessarily suggesting that all those who want Nisbett out are wrong, it was just a general comment that I think there are many people who blindly suggest we need to sack everyone including the CEO after any bad downturn of events. Anyway, just my 2c.

 

[dajesmac]

Obviously they haven't had ultimate success but look how Steve Rosich has turned the club down the road around. We need that breathe of fresh air.

Interesting comparison. No doubt Rosich has done wonders for Fremantle but have they really performed better than us in any performance based metric? Both have had a new coach in the past five years, both played in a Grand Final. Both fell short of a premiership. Fremantle have a minor premiership whereas we've won more games over the stretch.

Both are now middling sides with no real hope for a premiership in the next two years. You could make a case for their rebuild looking pretty smooth so far but really they're a year or two ahead of us in terms of the cycle anyway.

 

[The Dodger]

Do you think we have 'failed' as a football club in recent years? Since 2015 we have won more games than any other team in the competition and made a Grand Final. Sure we came up short of winning a premiership but we're still going a lot better than many other clubs.

I think our issues on the field, particularly in the midfield, boil down partly to some average recruiting compounded by the fact we've had four top 25-pick midfielders leave West Coast against our wishes during the rebuild years (Ebert, Selwood, Swift, Stevens). We have an uneven list and then have had to desperately trade in mature age players that have only backfired. I also think we have some coaching issues, particularly in the midfield where our structures don't seem to be working (why do we play an inside dominant midfield and then get smashed in clearances and barely break even in contested possessions?).

My point is that I don't really see the connection between our shortcomings now and any particular ineptitudes from Nisbett. I also think that we've gone better than most other clubs during the last five or so years and so I don't necessarily believe an overhaul from top to bottom is needed.

I should clarify though that in my original post I wasn't necessarily suggesting that all those who want Nisbett out are wrong, it was just a general comment that I think there are many people who blindly suggest we need to sack everyone including the CEO after any bad downturn of events. Anyway, just my 2c.

I know what you are saying and there probably is an element of it amongst some posters but isn't the CEO's job to oversee those things of which you say are our problems? Im not saying he is in charge of recruiting but he is in charge of selecting the recruiters, so if they keep making errors? If the organisation as a whole over rates our list and say it is Premiership material and it fails to get there who should be in trouble? The guy who's job it was to coach that list? Or the guy that hired the guy and believed the list was in Premiership mode? Or otherwise if he didn't believe the list was there he would have to set realistic goals for the coach that didn't involve topping up with mature players as we are just about there.

As mentioned earlier this Nisbett sentiment has been around for sometime and it rears itself again everytime we start losing games and the same issues haven't been solved. We can't recruit good mids, we fold like a deck of cards when there is a little bit of pressure and from the outside looking in seem that making money and brand power are more important than actually putting a list together that can compete for the ultimate prize and not just when the chips fall their way.

 

[JohnW]

Do you think we have 'failed' as a football club in recent years? Since 2015 we have won more games than any other team in the competition and made a Grand Final. Sure we came up short of winning a premiership but we're still going a lot better than many other clubs.

I think our issues on the field, particularly in the midfield, boil down partly to some average recruiting compounded by the fact we've had four top 25-pick midfielders leave West Coast against our wishes during the rebuild years (Ebert, Selwood, Swift, Stevens). We have an uneven list and then have had to desperately trade in mature age players that have only backfired. I also think we have some coaching issues, particularly in the midfield where our structures don't seem to be working (why do we play an inside dominant midfield and then get smashed in clearances and barely break even in contested possessions?).

My point is that I don't really see the connection between our shortcomings now and any particular ineptitudes from Nisbett. I also think that we've gone better than most other clubs during the last five or so years and so I don't necessarily believe an overhaul from top to bottom is needed.

I should clarify though that in my original post I wasn't necessarily suggesting that all those who want Nisbett out are wrong, it was just a general comment that I think there are many people who blindly suggest we need to sack everyone including the CEO after any bad downturn of events. Anyway, just my 2c.

All those points you made where we fell short he is in charge of? He is charge of a business where the goal should be winning flags.

If the trading in or mature players sucked, why didn't he address it? If the drafting sucked why didn't he address it? The buck stops with him, and playing it safe and being content with being good but not great gets us where we are now.

Do you think Trev has concerns about job security? It seems he is sitting pretty comfy which only invites complacency.

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[dajesmac]

I know what you are saying and there probably is an element of it amongst some posters but isn't the CEO's job to oversee those things of which you say are our problems? Im not saying he is in charge of recruiting but he is in charge of selecting the recruiters, so if they keep making errors? If the organisation as a whole over rates our list and say it is Premiership material and it fails to get there who should be in trouble? The guy who's job it was to coach that list? Or the guy that hired the guy and believed the list was in Premiership mode? Or otherwise if he didn't believe the list was there he would have to set realistic goals for the coach that didn't involve topping up with mature players as we are just about there.

As mentioned earlier this Nisbett sentiment has been around for sometime and it rears itself again everytime we start losing games and the same issues haven't been solved. We can't recruit good mids, we fold like a deck of cards when there is a little bit of pressure and from the outside looking in seem that making money and brand power are more important than actually putting a list together that can compete for the ultimate prize and not just when the chips fall their way.

There's no doubt we're not in an ideal situation but I question whether we have failed badly enough across all relevant metrics to justify sacking a CEO who has also been around during the good times (three Grand Finals under his tenure and one flag). I'm not saying he has a perfect track record but it does stack up well against a large portion of the competition. I understand the argument that we should be striving for excellence rather than just being 'good' but sacking the CEO and replacing him with a new one is not without it's own risks - at least with Nisbett the club has been a serious contender in at least two cycles in the last decade.

I agree that Nisbett is partially responsible for the performance of the recruiters, but I'd argue that may mean he needs to tinker with the recruiting department rather than the fact that we need to sack him. When considering the performance of the recruiters it's important to consider these factors:

• We have been unlucky in that four top 25-pick midfielders have walked out of the club during our rebuild of the midfield - three of which would stake a claim to being best 22 at the moment although I do acknowledge they probably wouldn't lift us into 'contender' status.
• We were unlucky with the advent of the introduction of two new clubs which heavily compromised the draft pool for several years. That being said we were not alone in that regard and the Bulldogs for instance have performed ridiculously well in their recent recruiting despite this.
• Whilst we have struggled to recruit elite midfield talent, we have done a pretty good job in plucking elite or potentially elite KPP talent later in drafts (e.g. Barrass, McGovern). This shouldn't be taken for granted and I daresay most other clubs would kill to have our selection history for talls.
• It's hard to assess the extent to which the recruiting has been poor or the development has led to stagnation of otherwise talented players. Liam Duggan in particular appeared to have all the attributes of being a B+ to A grade footballer, but for whatever reason has gone noticeably backwards. You could also point to players like Jack Darling, or even Scott Selwood, who may not be supremely talented but nonetheless are playing to a level well below what they were able to produce in their early years.

Overall I'd suggest our recruiting performance has been middling, and probably needs a fresh philosophy. Whilst I have been impressed with their performance later in drafts (Cole, Mutimer, Nelson, Rioli etc) there is a tendency to be conservative and avoid going for high risk/high reward types in the early rounds. Last year I think we deviated from this somewhat by reaching for Venables which I believe will turn out to be a masterstroke.

I realise this is starting to become tangential but my point is that there have been reasons for our stagnation and that there are a multitude of variables at play rather than just Nisbett. Yes, Nisbett has overseen us mount a premiership attempt in recent years but this is understandable given the mature talent we have at our disposal. If you ask me, the side was good enough to win the premiership in 2015 and we were right to attempt to top up with a 25 year old midfielder in Redden - although the recruiting dept does have to wear the blame for that being a total disaster.

I don't really agree with the notion that WC have seemed too interested in developing their brand power rather than on-field results. We have thrown alot at this premiership tilt and it didn't pay off - but not so badly to the extent that that we need a corporate overhaul. Frankly, developing our brand should be a legitimate focus for the CEO and it's important to still try and compete with Fremantle for instance to assert market dominance, in my view.

 

[flamingEMBERS]

Interesting comparison. No doubt Rosich has done wonders for Fremantle but have they really performed better than us in any performance based metric? Both have had a new coach in the past five years, both played in a Grand Final. Both fell short of a premiership. Fremantle have a minor premiership whereas we've won more games over the stretch.

Both are now middling sides with no real hope for a premiership in the next two years. You could make a case for their rebuild looking pretty smooth so far but really they're a year or two ahead of us in terms of the cycle anyway.

He took a mediocre club to now a club that has top notch facilities, significant membership, rebranded them to not be a laughing stock. It's a comparison to show that there are other good business and football minded people out there. We have the structures in place for succes we need a new leader.

 

[dajesmac]

He took a mediocre club to now a club that has top notch facilities, significant membership, rebranded them to not be a laughing stock. It's a comparison to show that there are other good business and football minded people out there. We have the structures in place for succes we need a new leader.

No doubt Rosich has done a good job but we're also developing new facilities and already have a strong brand and membership base. What do you think the minimum expectation for Nisbett is with regard to these off-field metrics?

 

[tigger_ferret]

He took a mediocre club to now a club that has top notch facilities, significant membership, rebranded them to not be a laughing stock. It's a comparison to show that there are other good business and football minded people out there. We have the structures in place for succes we need a new leader.

It is much easier to make an average club good than a good club exceptional.

 

[JohnW]

No doubt Rosich has done a good job but we're also developing new facilities and already have a strong brand and membership base. What do you think the minimum expectation for Nisbett is with regard to these off-field metrics?

If you ain't getting better your are going backwards.

I don't really care about facilities personally, but how could it be that our club richer than freo gets our new facilities after them? If they consider them important than we should of had them "yesterday".

Our club seems content.

 

[Mico89]

I was thinking more RETIRE.... Rebuild is when we are a bottom 5 team. Has been a bad month of footy but its not all doom and gloom just yet. Just need to clean up our mids, we will bounce back

 

[ep2018]

He took a mediocre club to now a club that has top notch facilities, significant membership, rebranded them to not be a laughing stock. It's a comparison to show that there are other good business and football minded people out there. We have the structures in place for succes we need a new leader.

Blows my mind how we fcuked up our womens team application. We should have got a team before freo. No guarantee we'll get a team in 2019 either.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Blows my mind how we fcuked up our womens team application. We should have got a team before freo. No guarantee we'll get a team in 2019 either.

There was one license available for two teams. They got it, we didn't. Their new facilities were 12 months ahead of ours for a start. It's hard to say from the outside what other factors led to their application being preferred ahead of ours but saying "we ****ed it up" is harsh.

We're the sole non-Victorian side with a provisional license and WA has a high rate of female participation so I'd be stunned if we didn't get a team in the first expansion.

 

[flamingEMBERS]

There was one license available for two teams. They got it, we didn't. Their new facilities were 12 months ahead of ours for a start. It's hard to say from the outside what other factors led to their application being preferred ahead of ours but saying "we ****** it up" is harsh.

We're the sole non-Victorian side with a provisional license and WA has a high rate of female participation so I'd be stunned if we didn't get a team in the first expansion.

Whilst all signs point to yes. It wouldn't be the first time the AFL have ignored WA.

 

[ep2018]

We're the sole non-Victorian side with a provisional license and WA has a high rate of female participation so I'd be stunned if we didn't get a team in the first expansion.

Depends on where they want to expand first. If they add four more teams I reckon we'll get picked but if its only two I think Sydney and either Essendon/Hawthorn will get in.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Depends on where they want to expand first. If they add four more teams I reckon we'll get picked but if its only two I think Sydney and either Essendon/Hawthorn will get in.

Sydney are unlikely to even bid: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/womens...spot-in-2019-competition-20170604-gwk5ui.html

 

[nobbyiscool]

Depends on where they want to expand first. If they add four more teams I reckon we'll get picked but if its only two I think Sydney and either Essendon/Hawthorn will get in.

In addition to what FiveStrings says about Sydney not bidding, Hawthorn are also no chance - they didn't put a bid in last year, and they aren't going to bypass teams like West Coast, St Kilda and Geelong who did submit bids.

 

[Dylan82]

Fascinating observing the rampant over-reaction and melting going on in this thread.

Yes, the team is out of form and losing games. That is what tends to happen when you are missing your best players. What it doesn’t mean is that we should go the nuclear option and bin our chances of another premiership for at least a decade by becoming Carlton.

This is a squad with two Brownlow medallists, the reigning dual Coleman medallist, another two listed in All-Australian teams in the last two seasons, with a further two listed in the initial 40. Not too bad really.

As for youth, 2015 saw one of our players third in the Rising Star and 2016 provided us with a nomination who was the best performing key-defensive rookie aside from the previous draft’s No.1 pick.

Now, I am FAR from happy with the recent performance of the team. However the problem is primarily the balance of our structures and secondarily our depth in areas that are currently being exposed due to injury.

Slitting our collective wrists and calling for a rebuild with the quality we have at our disposal is ridiculous.

 

[Godfather32]

Fascinating observing the rampant over-reaction and melting going on in this thread.

Yes, the team is out of form and losing games. That is what tends to happen when you are missing your best players. What it doesn’t mean is that we should go the nuclear option and bin our chances of another premiership for at least a decade by becoming Carlton.

This is a squad with two Brownlow medallists, the reigning dual Coleman medallist, another two listed in All-Australian teams in the last two seasons, with a further two listed in the initial 40. Not too bad really.

As for youth, 2015 saw one of our players third in the Rising Star and 2016 provided us with a nomination who was the best performing key-defensive rookie aside from the previous draft’s No.1 pick.

Now, I am FAR from happy with the recent performance of the team. However the problem is primarily the balance of our structures and secondarily our depth in areas that are currently being exposed due to injury.

Slitting our collective wrists and calling for a rebuild with the quality we have at our disposal is ridiculous.