Discussion The Random Discussion Thread

[Dard Ball Get]

A less centralised agenda maybe but the Q Anon and Trump phenomenon are the down side. I know we have a few trump fans on here but he's not been good for the political system in the US or the stability of the world. It was perfect timing for the rise of the internet spreading of misinformation with out regulations like the old school media are governed by.

I think people haven't developed enough of a bullshit radar with online content yet and especially people over 50 who seem to think anything that looks vaguely authentic online must be truth. It hopefully comes with time.

Old school media governed re: “misinformation”? Lmao Gringo!

Also re: Trump, the other side of the coin could be he was actually net positive because he exposed a lot of the BS that goes on in politics? As for “stability”, before and after didn’t fare too well either lol.

I reckon the 50+ issue is they only source their info, and therefore opinion, from mainstream tv (Kochie and Waleed lol) and are rabid in their ignorance.

 

[gringo2011]

Old school media governed re: “misinformation”? Lmao Gringo!

Also re: Trump, the other side of the coin could be he was actually net positive because he exposed a lot of the BS that goes on in politics? As for “stability”, before and after didn’t fare too well either lol.

I reckon the 50+ issue is they only source their info, and therefore opinion, from mainstream tv (Kochie and Waleed lol) and are rabid in their ignorance.

They were shit but were governed by some laws until recently, governments wanting Murdoch or others golden handshake had to sell out by watering down legislation.

Alternative media and pretty much anything that is posted online is a free for all. It's the Wild West online.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

They were s**t but were governed by some laws until recently, governments wanting Murdoch or others golden handshake had to sell out by watering down legislation.

Alternative media and pretty much anything that is posted online is a free for all. It's the Wild West online.

Legitimately interesting to hear your views. I agree for the most part, however I think all media is a free for all these days, it moves too quick for any accountability and/or accuracy.

 

[George]

Legitimately interesting to hear your views.

Why lie

 

[Sun Ra]

Why lie

He's showing his connectedness on a deep level. You're just being a campaigner.

 

[sunny3193]

Think the teals would be disappointed with last nights results ?

All though i did have skin full

Yeah, they didn't spend as much or get the free media this election. I think they picked off the politicians that they blamed for some policy direction in the federal election. I don't think it's as easy in a state election with a Labor government who look pretty similar apart from the name. If they hit NSW and went after some of their Libs who are still tainted by Scomo they might pick off a few seats.

The “teals” are not a political party.
They are a set of individuals conveniently grouped under that heading by lazy journalism.
The quality of independent candidates in the state election was not as good as federal, understandably.
The ability to organise volunteers and fund their support systems was similarly lower quality.
I do not know of any cross support from the successful Federal independents towards the state candidates.
At least one made a point of being unassociated with the state candidates, for good reason.
These people (ie: federal independents) are jealous of their independence and guard it vigorously.
Their political careers depend on it.

Would they be concerned about a lack of success of independents at state level?
Not really, and only as far as it affects them federally anyway.

Did the state independents have the funds to spend or the systems to support themselves at this election (compared to their federal counterparts)?
No.

As for the federal independents future?
Depends on a number of things, most outside their control.
But each of these people are very smart, much smarter than the incumbents they defeated, and each of them are already working extremely hard to win re-election.
You might not have noticed that the colour scheme is no longer uniform (teal).
We have at least one using gold in their branding for example.
Each will have an in-place volunteer force, contact and donor database, funding mechanisms and campaign infrastructure well before the next election.
They have their own (priceless) intellectual property.
They won’t require the same funding either given each now has an established brand with good, positive recognition and value. Plus the infrastructure spend has already been and gone.
Steggal has proven that incumbency can work for the independents too.
From memory, her donations were at something like 50% of the newcomers and she increased her margin.

What has happened is that these women have captured incumbency in electorates that are a natural fit for them. Barring stupidity on their part, getting them defeated will be extremely difficult. They are socially progressive, economic conservatives.
As are their electorates.

I think you might be surprised how difficult it will be to unseat them.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

A less centralised agenda maybe but the Q Anon and Trump phenomenon are the down side. I know we have a few trump fans on here but he's not been good for the political system in the US or the stability of the world. It was perfect timing for the rise of the internet spreading of misinformation with out regulations like the old school media are governed by.

I think people haven't developed enough of a bullshit radar with online content yet and especially people over 50 who seem to think anything that looks vaguely authentic online must be truth. It hopefully comes with time.

Ummm i'm over fifty and my kids will come and tell me stuff, and i say " you read that on facebook right, because its bullshit".

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Legitimately interesting to hear your views. I agree for the most part, however I think all media is a free for all these days, it moves too quick for any accountability and/or accuracy.

I hate it when you go on the Hun site and read something , then go back an hour later and its quietly been fixed.
Its not like when they proof read it twice before they printed it.

 

[gringo2011]

The “teals” are not a political party.
They are a set of individuals conveniently grouped under that heading by lazy journalism.
The quality of independent candidates in the state election was not as good as federal, understandably.
The ability to organise volunteers and fund their support systems was similarly lower quality.
I do not know of any cross support from the successful Federal independents towards the state candidates.
At least one made a point of being unassociated with the state candidates, for good reason.
These people (ie: federal independents) are jealous of their independence and guard it vigorously.
Their political careers depend on it.

Would they be concerned about a lack of success of independents at state level?
Not really, and only as far as it affects them federally anyway.

Did the state independents have the funds to spend or the systems to support themselves at this election (compared to their federal counterparts)?
No.

As for the federal independents future?
Depends on a number of things, most outside their control.
But each of these people are very smart, much smarter than the incumbents they defeated, and each of them are already working extremely hard to win re-election.
You might not have noticed that the colour scheme is no longer uniform (teal).
We have at least one using gold in their branding for example.
Each will have an in-place volunteer force, contact and donor database, funding mechanisms and campaign infrastructure well before the next election.
They have their own (priceless) intellectual property.
They won’t require the same funding either given each now has an established brand with good, positive recognition and value. Plus the infrastructure spend has already been and gone.
Steggal has proven that incumbency can work for the independents too.
From memory, her donations were at something like 50% of the newcomers and she increased her margin.

What has happened is that these women have captured incumbency in electorates that are a natural fit for them. Barring stupidity on their part, getting them defeated will be extremely difficult. They are socially progressive, economic conservatives.
As are their electorates.

I think you might be surprised how difficult it will be to unseat them.

There was a funding net from Holmes- aCourt and others who organised a lot of them running in key seats held by prominent Libs. Their agenda is environmental reforms. The Teals are a bit different than your Zali Steggall types who are rebel ex Libs members who may or may not still have an affiliation.

 

[gringo2011]

Ummm i'm over fifty and my kids will come and tell me stuff, and i say " you read that on facebook right, because its bullshit".

I may have been unfairly generalising. I’m a cynic so don’t believe in anything. Or perhaps that’s a nihilist.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Well democracy sucks!!

My well thought through and thoroughly considered vote has failed to get a candidate from the Victorian Socialists (or even the Angry Victorians Party) into the Victorian Upper House.

Meanwhile in the Lower House, our incumbent NP member of 20 years (who magically appears just before an election to only disappear again one week later) gets 75% of the 2PP vote.

I'm with Socrates - democracy is over rated.

 

[gringo2011]

Well democracy sucks!!

My well thought through and thoroughly considered vote has failed to get a candidate from the Victorian Socialists (or even the Angry Victorians Party) into the Victorian Upper House.

Meanwhile in the Lower House, our incumbent NP member of 20 years (who magically appears just before an election to only disappear again one week later) gets 75% of the 2PP vote.

I'm with Socrates - democracy is over rated.

Wait you actually threw your vote away on the socialists and the AVP or are you being funny? The Nats win the bush because no-one can be ****ed thinking about politics.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Wait you actually threw your vote away on the socialists and the AVP or are you being funny? The Nats win the bush because no-one can be ****ed thinking about politics.

Nah - my vote was well thought out.

Victorian Socialists currently have 0.05% of the vote so there is a fair chance they MIGHT end up as part of the left alliance that should hold the balance of power in the upper house.

The Greens look a chance to get 4 seats, Legalise Cannabis Party with 1 seat and another going either to the Legalise Cannabis or the Victorian Socialists - that will be enough.

Much better value than some uninterested farmer who only remembers he's an MP just before every election.

 

[gringo2011]

Nah - my vote was well thought out.

Victorian Socialists currently have 0.05% of the vote so there is a fair chance they MIGHT end up as part of the left alliance that should hold the balance of power in the upper house.

The Greens look a chance to get 4 seats, Legalise Cannabis Party with 1 seat and another going either to the Legalise Cannabis or the Victorian Socialists - that will be enough.

Much better value than some uninterested farmer who only remembers he's an MP just before every election.

The AVP looks like a fringe nutter group and in complete contrast to the socialists. It's a funny combo. Like people who voted for Albo but hold Trump up as a great political hope. I'm imagining the VSP are serious communist style socialists, not your scandi style democratic socialists.

You are out on the coast from memory, but I know Darren Chester is very well regarded by most around Gippsland. He seems to be one of the coalition's best talents at any level.

As for holding balance of power it's funny that modern Labor is so much like the Liberals, that they need socialists and progressives to hold them to account.

 

[bergholt]

Nah - my vote was well thought out.

Victorian Socialists currently have 0.05% of the vote so there is a fair chance they MIGHT end up as part of the left alliance that should hold the balance of power in the upper house.

The Greens look a chance to get 4 seats, Legalise Cannabis Party with 1 seat and another going either to the Legalise Cannabis or the Victorian Socialists - that will be enough.

Much better value than some uninterested farmer who only remembers he's an MP just before every election.

Socialists finished third at our booth behind Greens and Labor - helped that the candidate was wandering around the queue most of the day

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The AVP looks like a fringe nutter group and in complete contrast to the socialists. It's a funny combo. Like people who voted for Albo but hold Trump up as a great political hope. I'm imagining the VSP are serious communist style socialists, not your scandi style democratic socialists.

You are out on the coast from memory, but I know Darren Chester is very well regarded by most around Gippsland. He seems to be one of the coalition's best talents at any level.

As for holding balance of power it's funny that modern Labor is so much like the Liberals, that they need socialists and progressives to hold them to account.

Labour are fairly "right" and the choice is kind of Leftish right with trade Unions on top, or the incompetent more rightish right, in the end it doesn't make much difference, people vote for who they think is most competent rather than any political ideal.

Libs must be pissed, they wanted to build a tunnel and Andrews paid a fortune to scrap it, but he got to build his stuff.
They must have their bottom lips poking out "we wanted to build a tunnel too ".

 

[sunny3193]

There was a funding net from Holmes- aCourt and others who organised a lot of them running in key seats held by prominent Libs. Their agenda is environmental reforms. The Teals are a bit different than your Zali Steggall types who are rebel ex Libs members who may or may not still have an affiliation.

The first sentence is incorrect.
As is the second.
And the third.

Holmes a Court had zero influence in the selection of the independent candidates.
That is a Liberal Party trope.
C200 did contribute to the independents campaigns. That has been declared to, and published by, the AEC.
C200 funding was derived from 12k donations across Australia and declared on their website in real time.
C200 had zero input into the candidates policy development and posture.
The independents additional funding was derived from thousands of donations also declared in real time on their respective websites.

Compare that to: no AEC declaration about funding for the major parties (because the major parties don’t need to do this till next year), no information about the various funding vehicles used by the major party candidates such as the Bayside Forum (for the same reason), Clive Palmer dropping $100mill on a narcissistic trip (also not yet published), and the dominance of policy imposed by the party hierarchies on party candidates - irrespective of the party candidates belief systems.

The independents agenda included the environment, but was not limited to that.
One of the independents call to action was: Integrity, Prosperity, Climate and Equality.
In that order.

Zali Steggall, and her 2019 campaign, was the model for every “teal“ independent who stood at the last election. She is exactly the same as them.

 

[bergholt]

Compare that to: no AEC declaration about funding for the major parties (because the major parties don’t need to do this till next year), no information about the various funding vehicles used by the major party candidates such as the Bayside Forum (for the same reason)

This shit is so ridiculous. They have it in a ****ing spreadsheet at HQ, they just choose not to make it public until later because then it won't be very newsworthy. It would take them 10 minutes once a week to publish all their donations they've received that week, and then everyone would get a much better idea of who's paying for extra democracy.

 

[gringo2011]

The first sentence is incorrect.
As is the second.
And the third.

Holmes a Court had zero influence in the selection of the independent candidates.
That is a Liberal Party trope.
C200 did contribute to the independents campaigns. That has been declared to, and published by, the AEC.
C200 funding was derived from 12k donations across Australia and declared on their website in real time.
C200 had zero input into the candidates policy development and posture.
The independents additional funding was derived from thousands of donations also declared in real time on their respective websites.

Compare that to: no AEC declaration about funding for the major parties (because the major parties don’t need to do this till next year), no information about the various funding vehicles used by the major party candidates such as the Bayside Forum (for the same reason), Clive Palmer dropping $100mill on a narcissistic trip (also not yet published), and the dominance of policy imposed by the party hierarchies on party candidates - irrespective of the party candidates belief systems.

The independents agenda included the environment, but was not limited to that.
One of the independents call to action was: Integrity, Prosperity, Climate and Equality.
In that order.

Zali Steggall, and her 2019 campaign, was the model for every “teal“ independent who stood at the last election. She is exactly the same as them.

I know officially they aren't controlled but the similarity and targeted seats looks awfully stage managed. I'm sure they aren't coerced into policy but it would be naive to think that they have had zero infulnce either.

The candidates were probably already standing and had C200 approach them but the campaigns were incredibly similar and well managed. Zali was the model for sure but the Liberals have a habit of sending problem candidates away at arms length so that they don't shit in their nest.

Political donations have ruined true democracy years ago. I 100% agree with you there. The Teals appeal to inner city middle class flogs like me, although I admit to voting Labor at the federal election just to get rid of Morrison, he was probably the worst PM we've ever had and we've voted some absolute shit in over the years. I actually gave money to a couple of the Teals (Ryan and Danels) though so I'm a hypocrite and don't stand by my own principals. I was happy with political manipulation to rid us of the federal Libs last election.

 

[pebblesofsand]

The AVP looks like a fringe nutter group and in complete contrast to the socialists. It's a funny combo. Like people who voted for Albo but hold Trump up as a great political hope. I'm imagining the VSP are serious communist style socialists, not your scandi style democratic socialists.

You are out on the coast from memory, but I know Darren Chester is very well regarded by most around Gippsland. He seems to be one of the coalition's best talents at any level.

As for holding balance of power it's funny that modern Labor is so much like the Liberals, that they need socialists and progressives to hold them to account.

Yeah Chester's good but he's federal.

Good bloke but did himself no favours with many in the electorate after he stuck with the NP in the hope of getting a leadership position rather than go Independent and maybe actually get some decent outcomes for his electorate.

Local state MP is another story completely - but he's Nats so he gets elected.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Today's lesson - if you are an aging novice mountain bike rider, you really need to take special care on your local trails after a very strong wind event.

Fallen tree just around the blind corner after a beginners jump - straight over the handlebars into the scrubbery!!! Thankfully lots of nice tall soft grass to land on.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Today's lesson - if you are an aging novice mountain bike rider, you really need to take special care on your local trails after a very strong wind event.

Fallen tree just around the blind corner after a beginners jump - straight over the handlebars into the scrubbery!!! Thankfully lots of nice tall soft grass to land on.

I've heard from a first hand source that something similar can happen on a road bike on a road in the Dandenongs.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Obviously the liberals were wrong to be so right and need to move to the left even though labour are very right for the left its obvious that was the right approach. It would be right for the teals to fill the space that's left in the right after the libs move left. I'm not sure if the Greens are left or right or wrong or right. Maybe people don't care if they are left or right as long as their approach is right which will be hard for the libs because they have no-one left.

 

[PoppedCorn]

All belong to the same lodge at the top

 

[sunny3193]

I know officially they aren't controlled but the similarity and targeted seats looks awfully stage managed. I'm sure they aren't coerced into policy but it would be naive to think that they have had zero infulnce either.

The candidates were probably already standing and had C200 approach them but the campaigns were incredibly similar and well managed. Zali was the model for sure but the Liberals have a habit of sending problem candidates away at arms length so that they don't s**t in their nest.

Political donations have ruined true democracy years ago. I 100% agree with you there. The Teals appeal to inner city middle class flogs like me, although I admit to voting Labor at the federal election just to get rid of Morrison, he was probably the worst PM we've ever had and we've voted some absolute s**t in over the years. I actually gave money to a couple of the Teals (Ryan and Danels) though so I'm a hypocrite and don't stand by my own principals. I was happy with political manipulation to rid us of the federal Libs last election.

I will switch to PM to reply.